A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[tigger 2]

And that's where your argument breaks down; calling a fool someone that God calls his child.

And coming from someone who apparently doesn't know that a son can in nowise be his own father. Now there's some real interesting linguistics!

............................................
This Christian-professing person does more than call other posters "fools":

#258 “Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.”

#315 “You most certainly LIED because you contradict accurate scripture by your claim that nowhere in the NT is ‘the God’" used in reference to Jesus, yet 2 Peter 1:1 contains ‘the God’, ‘tou Theou’"…. “There is PROOF that you LIED, so your thoughts are corrupt.”

#319 “You engage in deception again!”

#332 “Your very first sentence is a lie - a deception of the devil (John 8:48), and the next paragraph is proof.”

#359 “Your deception is exposed again.”

#393 “Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.”

#394 “ You bear false witness against King Jesus, truly God, and you lie about the Kingdom of God by way of you misrepresenting Paul's explanation in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 while you subtract many other passages,….”

#410 “You lie about the Word of God, and you lie about what I wrote.”

#413 “You merely cry afoul with no proofs. You have no proofs to support your ungodly, humanistic promulgation.”

#430 “Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”

#457 “Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus….”

#567 “In Truth (John 14:6), @Aunty Jane's points are NOT good; therefore, Aunty Jane's points are evil.”

#586 “ Now, back to your evil writing.” And “Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.” And “Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”

#604 “Aunty Jane imposes her evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)”

#609 “YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).”

#620 “ Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”

#627 “YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).”

#628 “Therefore, you are proven a liar and a dangerously unreliable source.”

#632 “You have proved yourself a liar again!”

#636 “YOU LIE ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD, AND YOU LIE ABOUT ME FOR I ACKNOWLEDGED THE TRUTH ABOUT THE RECORDED WORDS OF JOHN 17:3.” And, “YOU LIED ABOUT THERE BEING NO EVIDENCE THAT JESUS IS GOD WITH RESPECT TO JESUS SAYING "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" (JOHN 10:30).”

#642 “Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.”

#705 “Pierac really puts much laborious work into attempting to deceive.”

#819 “@Aunty Jane is partaker in the evil with you because she liked your post.”

#827 “You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)”

#848 “Since you have difficulty with fundamental English and language in general as well as you repeating exposed deception between your post's opening and closing that I'm jumping from exposing your opening deception to your closing deception.

#870 “@Aunty Jane @Rich R @tigger 2 (the 3 of you are included because you liked jaybird's post) @jaybird
The four of you are linguistically incompetent fools.”

 

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird

In this passage, the Samaritan ceased travelling toward the priests who were likely at the Temple where the Jews worshipped. The Samaritan left the other 9 travelling toward the priests.

Then the Samaritan returned back to God (Jesus) glorifying God, and the Samaritan "fell on his face at" Jesus' "feet, giving thanks to" Jesus.

The Samaritan glorified God whose name is Jesus, giving thanks at Jesus' feet.

With the Samaritan still at Jesus' feet, Jesus refers to Himself as God with "Was no one found who returned to give glory to God" (Luke 17:18).

12 As He entered a village, ten leprous men who stood at a distance met Him;
13 and they raised their voices, saying, "Jesus, Master, have mercy on us!"
14 When He saw them, He said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.
15 Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice,
16 and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine - where are they"
18 "Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
(Luke 17:12-19)
The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

It is not recorded that the Samaritan went to the priests, rather it is recorded that the Samaritan went to Jesus.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[David in NJ]

Every bible writer was brought up in the Israelite religion. Not one of them served a trinity ever while serving the true God-YHWH(Jehovah). That is 100% fact.

You mean the Jews who yelled "blasphemer" and then smote HIM and then handed HIM over to the Romans to be crucified and cried out for Barabas, a murderer, to be released instead of the ONE who healed the sick, did miracles and raised the dead = this JESUS they yelled 'crucify him crucify him" and "his blood be upon us and our children"

You mean the Jewish people who stoned the Prophets of God...........and to this day(save for a remnant) still revile the Name of Yeshua HaMoshiach.

If they cannot even SEE their Messiah how in the world did you ever expect them to believe in Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit???

 

[David in NJ]

David, you miss the whole point of everything that is said to you...."FAITH" is essential but it cannot be not BLIND, nor does it fly in the face of clear scripture. You are ignoring the scriptures that are given you, and steadfastly clinging to the errors taught by Christendom....these are the "weeds" of Jesus' parable. No one can doubt your sincerity, but repeating you errors does you no favors.

Please open your eyes and address what is said to you from God's word....you are like.....

The Jews of Jesus' day were like that too..... The Pharisees had them convinced them that what Jesus said was not true.....

Aunty Jane, my eyes and ears are open to the Voice of God that walked in the Garden = the same Word that was God in the beginning.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created..."
John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness = 3x

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

John 1:3 Through Him/Word/Son all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.

Why are you closing your eyes and shutting your ears to this???

 

[Kermos]

............................................
This Christian-professing person does more than call other posters "fools":

#258 “Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.”

#315 “You most certainly LIED because you contradict accurate scripture by your claim that nowhere in the NT is ‘the God’" used in reference to Jesus, yet 2 Peter 1:1 contains ‘the God’, ‘tou Theou’"…. “There is PROOF that you LIED, so your thoughts are corrupt.”

#319 “You engage in deception again!”


#332 “Your very first sentence is a lie - a deception of the devil (John 8:48), and the next paragraph is proof.”


#359 “Your deception is exposed again.”


#393 “Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus thus your deception results in everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) - whether you believe in everlasting punishment or not.”


#394 “ You bear false witness against King Jesus, truly God, and you lie about the Kingdom of God by way of you misrepresenting Paul's explanation in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 while you subtract many other passages,….”


#410 “You lie about the Word of God, and you lie about what I wrote.”


#413 “You merely cry afoul with no proofs. You have no proofs to support your ungodly, humanistic promulgation.”



#430 “Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”


#457 “Your WICKED LIE that the "Us" in Genesis 1:26 represents created creatures is tantamount to you denying Jesus….”


#567 “In Truth (John 14:6), @Aunty Jane's points are NOT good; therefore, Aunty Jane's points are evil.”


#586 “ Now, back to your evil writing.” And “Your evil deception includes that you think Jesus is not YHWH God, so you disbelieve in Jesus.” And “Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”


#604 “Aunty Jane imposes her evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)”


#609 “YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).”


#620 “ Your imaginary rule about Elohim not being plural IS YOUR EVIL LIE.”


#627 “YOU LIED ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD FOR HE SAYS "I AM" (JOHN 8:58, EXODUS 3:14).”


#628 “Therefore, you are proven a liar and a dangerously unreliable source.”


#632 “You have proved yourself a liar again!”


#636 “YOU LIE ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD, AND YOU LIE ABOUT ME FOR I ACKNOWLEDGED THE TRUTH ABOUT THE RECORDED WORDS OF JOHN 17:3.” And, “YOU LIED ABOUT THERE BEING NO EVIDENCE THAT JESUS IS GOD WITH RESPECT TO JESUS SAYING "I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE" (JOHN 10:30).”


#642 “Therefore, you are a wickedly unreliable source.”


#705 “Pierac really puts much laborious work into attempting to deceive.”


#819 “@Aunty Jane is partaker in the evil with you because she liked your post.”


#827 “You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)”


#848 “Since you have difficulty with fundamental English and language in general as well as you repeating exposed deception between your post's opening and closing that I'm jumping from exposing your opening deception to your closing deception.


#870 “@Aunty Jane @Rich R @tigger 2 (the 3 of you are included because you liked jaybird's post) @jaybird
The four of you are linguistically incompetent fools.”

@tigger 2, you seem to have neglected your own deceptions exposed in posts 644, 752, and 843, so here they are:

Your contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God did not exist but will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:14) (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #644 in this thread); in other words, you think that YHWH God had to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

additionally

You claim God's Wisdom was created by YHWH God who lacked Wisdom according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8 (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #752 in this thread), so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.

additionally

You wickedly add your words directly into the words of the Apostle Thomas recorded in John 20:28 - an evil crime by itself (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #843 in this thread), yet in so doing, you plunge even further into your evil deception by you subtracting that which the Apostle John wrote about the dialog between Jesus and Thomas in John 20:26-29.

You are a dangerously unreliable source.

The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Aunty Jane]

Our work is done here.....

 

[David in NJ]

Our work is done here.....

The Prophet Isaiah, the Apostles, the LORD and the Holy Spirit all invite you to know HIM who is YHWH and is coming on the Clouds in great power and Glory.

Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. - Matt 24:30

Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him—even those who pierced Him.
And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. So shall it be! Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty. - Revelation 1:7-8

Then I (John) turned to see the voice that was speaking with me
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid.
I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.

 

[DavidB]

Our work is done here.....

Why respond to someone who just keeps cutting and pasting the same nonsense and insults over and over. Jesus told us what to do with those who refuse to hear.

 

[David in NJ]

Why respond to someone who just keeps cutting and pasting the same nonsense and insults over and over. Jesus told us what to do with those who refuse to hear.

But neither of you follow the LORD Jesus or His words AND you call His words nonsense and thus call Him a liar.

Maybe Kermos was right about you in his description = "the fool says in his heart there is no God"

You both confess that the Word is not God = thus a fool.

"Thus says the LORD,
the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me." - Isaiah 44:6

When I saw Him/Jesus, I fell at His feet like a dead man. But He placed His right hand on me and said, “Do not be afraid.
I am the First and the Last, the Living One. I was dead, and behold, now I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of Death and of Hades.
Revelation 1:17

Repent and worship the YHWH Yahshua HaMoshiach

 

[keithr]

No angel ever “worshipped” the son.....because the son joins them in worshipping the Father that they all have in common.

And yet Paul tells us, in Hebrews 1:6 (WEB):

(6) When he again brings in the firstborn into the world he says, “Let all the angels of God worship him.”​

 

[David in NJ]

Every bible writer was brought up in the Israelite religion. Not one of them served a trinity ever while serving the true God-YHWH(Jehovah). That is 100% fact.

The Jews, to this day, wanted to stone Yahshua/Jesus because, in fact HE declared Himself to be YHWH/the LORD, in the flesh, standing right in front of them = IAM = John ch8

the Apostle Paul writes: that if you confess with your mouth the LORD Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is where the heart either yields to God or rejects HIM and goes down a counterfeit path = false christ = jehovah witness

Yahshuah/Jesus is LORD/YHWH and HE came and died for our sins and HE rose from the dead and lives forever more.

Look at the TRUTH: Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation ch1
Thus says the LORD/YHWH,
the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the LORD
, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
"I am the First and the Last."
I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

The Holy Spirit declares the TRUTH:
YHWH is King and YAHSHUAH is King = Isaiah 44:6 Revelation 19:15-17
YHWH is the 'First and Last' and YAHSHUAH is the 'First and Last' = Isaiah ch44 and Revelation ch1 & ch22
YHWH is the Redemmer and YAHSHUAH is the Redeemer = Isaiah 44:6 and Galatians 3:13-14 and Revelation 14:4

 

[Kermos]

Our work is done here.....

Why respond to someone who just keeps cutting and pasting the same nonsense and insults over and over. Jesus told us what to do with those who refuse to hear.

@DavidB, God has me proclaiming the Truth (John 14:6) accurately in this thread. You deceive by calling the Truth (John 14:6) such a thing as nonsense and insults.

@Aunty Jane

The spiritually, accurately, and truthfully (John 14:6) proclaimed explanation is in the following:

You take Colossians 1:15 wickedly out of context by failing to acknowledge that "firstborn of all creation" specifically refers to the resurrected Jesus as the "Firstborn" and the saints as the "all creation" (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #560 in this thread)

as well as

You impose your evil thoughts of an incomplete context upon the words of Jesus recorded in John 8:58 by failing to acknowledge the sayings of Jesus that Jesus exists everlastingly prior to Abraham indicating that Jesus is everlasting YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #561 in this thread)

as well as

You deliberately try to deceive about John 1:18 then you extend that deception toward John 1:1 in your vain claim that Jesus is not God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #815 in this thread)

as well as

You posted the Greek source word's definition of "beginning" in Revelation 3:14 as "ἀρχή archḗ, ar-khay'; from G756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank):—beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule." - no where in the definition is "created" - but truly Jesus is the commencement of all the Resurrection as God had me convey to you, and commencement is in the definition (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #820 in this thread)

as well as

In your heart, you subtract the Apostle Thomas saying "my God" to Lord Jesus (John 20:28) in the context of Thomas' usage (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #870 in this thread)

as well as

You serve your father of deception by failing to acknowledge the context of Jesus' words that Jesus refers to Himself as "I AM" in John 8:58 in reference to "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 during a discussion about "who God is" with the Jews, so Jesus pronounces Himself to be YHWH God (as shown in Truth [John 14:6] post #564 in this thread)

You are a dangerously unreliable source.

 

[Rich R]

Changing Scripture to say the Word was 'a god/divine' would be placing a false savior before God.
Angels are divine beings but they are not God. This we know for they were created by the Word and all the angels worship HIM.

You are assuming that the original text said, "...was God" but it was later changed to, "...a God" by certain nefarious characters. Perhaps it's the other way around.

First of all, we need to acknowledge there are no original texts, texts that John actually wrote. The best we have are early copies of what John actually wrote. So we might inquire as to what was actually written in these early copies.

"εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος"​

The relevant part is the last 5 words. It is important to note that there is no definite article "ο" before θεος. There are actually 3 different ways this could be translated.

1) "...and the word was God"
The usual translation by Trinitarians, but by far not the most likely translation

2) "...and the word was a God"
JWs and a few others say this. It is grammatically more accurate than #1 above

3) "and the word was godly [or divine]"
Many notable scholars, most of them Trinitarians, prefer this translation

Here's what Daniel Wallace, a noted Trinitarian scholar, had to say about this possibility:

"After examining the grammatical possibilities in John 1:1 and whether the last theos in John 1:1 is indefinite (“a god”), definite (“the God”), or qualitative (that the logos has the qualities of God; the noun logos is being used to function like an adjective and give qualities to the noun logos), he concludes, “The most likely candidate for theos is qualitative. …Possible translations are as follows: ‘What God was the Word was’ (NEB)…The idea of a qualitative theos here is that the Word had all the attributes and qualities that ‘the God’ (of 1:1b) had”
​

Possibility #2 and #3 are both accurate translations, whereas #1 is rather poor scholarship. Remember, we are to "study" to show ourselves approved by God (2 Tim 2:15), which implies scholarly methods. On the flip side, we are never told to take anything by "blind" faith, i.e., to trust something that can't be known or understood. Sorry, but 3 persons in one and a son being also his father, can neither be known nor understood. Are we not often told the trinity can't be understood but accept it by faith? Are we not told not to worry about being unable to understand the trinity, that God's ways are higher than our ways? There is nothing about that in the word "study."

If we accept possibility #1 we at once create many contradictions in the scriptures. I've quoted dozens of verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God. God knew things Jesus didn't know, we see Jesus praying to God (or himself?), Jesus is not "good" but God is, Jesus had a 100% opposite will than God's will (let this cup pass from me....nevertheless, not my will but thine be done), Jesus had a God and a Father whereas God has neither, Jesus was tempted whereas God can not be tempted. There were many others I quoted. I also quoted at least 6 verses that specifically called Jesus a man (Acts 2:22, et. al.) while noting there are none that specifically call him God. Then there is the 35 or so verses that call Jesus the, "son of God" compared to the 0 verses that call him, "God to Son."

If we accept possibility #1, and we don't want contradictions in the scriptures, all of these verses must be made to say something other than what they clearly say. That's a huge task, one which I wouldn't care to take on.

​

I think it also important to note that the original texts did not have capital and small letters. They were all what we could call capital letters. Therefore, the translators chose to capitalize "Word" solely because of their own predispositions to the trinity, making it a person where a person was not intended by John. That was not honest to the true text.

I'm sorry to say that anyone who still accepts possibility #1 after a thorough consideration of all I've said here is not being honest with themselves. They are rejecting the clear deceleration of John's intended propose in writing his Gospel, i.e.,

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Ignoring what John said here, they still insist, based on tradition alone, that Jesus is not the Christ (the anointed one) nor is he the son of God. They ignore 5th grade reading level texts, insisting that John really says,

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
​

But what's really odd, is that after willfully changing the text so as to fit with tradition, they accuse me of changing the text.

Your eternal destination hangs on who the Word is.

Really? I can find you many verses that tell us what one must do to have eternal life. Not a single one says I must believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God. For that assertion to be held as truth requires one to go outside of the scriptures, namely, the Athenasian Creed. I'll pass on that, thank you!

 

[Rich R]

Jesus said his disciples would be recognized by their fruits, especially the love they show. Compare the fruitage of God’s spirit with the works of the flesh in Galatians 5:19-23 and it is obvious how a true Christian should at least try to conduct him or herself. Sad really.

How do you know anything about my fruit? Are you just basing it on my saying one little thing, especially when that one little thing was pretty much what someone said to me first? And to think, based on the flimsiest of evidence, you suggest I don't even try to be loving. I wonder what's really sad here.

 

[David in NJ]

You are assuming that the original text said, "...was God" but it was later changed to, "...a God" by certain nefarious characters. Perhaps it's the other way around.

First of all, we need to acknowledge there are no original texts, texts that John actually wrote. The best we have are early copies of what John actually wrote. So we might inquire as to what was actually written in these early copies.

"εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος"​

The relevant part is the last 5 words. It is important to note that there is no definite article "ο" before θεος. There are actually 3 different ways this could be translated.

1) "...and the word was God"
The usual translation by Trinitarians, but by far not the most likely translation

2) "...and the word was a God"
JWs and a few others say this. It is grammatically more accurate than #1 above

3) "and the word was godly [or divine]"
Many notable scholars, most of them Trinitarians, prefer this translation

Here's what Daniel Wallace, a noted Trinitarian scholar, had to say about this possibility:

"After examining the grammatical possibilities in John 1:1 and whether the last theos in John 1:1 is indefinite (“a god”), definite (“the God”), or qualitative (that the logos has the qualities of God; the noun logos is being used to function like an adjective and give qualities to the noun logos), he concludes, “The most likely candidate for theos is qualitative. …Possible translations are as follows: ‘What God was the Word was’ (NEB)…The idea of a qualitative theos here is that the Word had all the attributes and qualities that ‘the God’ (of 1:1b) had”
​

Possibility #2 and #3 are both accurate translations, whereas #1 is rather poor scholarship. Remember, we are to "study" to show ourselves approved by God (2 Tim 2:15), which implies scholarly methods. On the flip side, we are never told to take anything by "blind" faith, i.e., to trust something that can't be known or understood. Sorry, but 3 persons in one and a son being also his father, can neither be known nor understood. Are we not often told the trinity can't be understood but accept it by faith? Are we not told not to worry about being unable to understand the trinity, that God's ways are higher than our ways? There is nothing about that in the word "study."

If we accept possibility #1 we at once create many contradictions in the scriptures. I've quoted dozens of verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God. God knew things Jesus didn't know, we see Jesus praying to God (or himself?), Jesus is not "good" but God is, Jesus had a 100% opposite will than God's will (let this cup pass from me....nevertheless, not my will but thine be done), Jesus had a God and a Father whereas God has neither, Jesus was tempted whereas God can not be tempted. There were many others I quoted. I also quoted at least 6 verses that specifically called Jesus a man (Acts 2:22, et. al.) while noting there are none that specifically call him God. Then there is the 35 or so verses that call Jesus the, "son of God" compared to the 0 verses that call him, "God to Son."

If we accept possibility #1, and we don't want contradictions in the scriptures, all of these verses must be made to say something other than what they clearly say. That's a huge task, one which I wouldn't care to take on.

​

I think it also important to note that the original texts did not have capital and small letters. They were all what we could call capital letters. Therefore, the translators chose to capitalize "Word" solely because of their own predispositions to the trinity, making it a person where a person was not intended by John. That was not honest to the true text.

I'm sorry to say that anyone who still accepts possibility #1 after a thorough consideration of all I've said here is not being honest with themselves. They are rejecting the clear deceleration of John's intended propose in writing his Gospel, i.e.,

John 20:31,

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.​

Ignoring what John said here, they still insist, based on tradition alone, that Jesus is not the Christ (the anointed one) nor is he the son of God. They ignore 5th grade reading level texts, insisting that John really says,

"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."
​

But what's really odd, is that after willfully changing the text so as to fit with tradition, they accuse me of changing the text.


Really? I can find you many verses that tell us what one must do to have eternal life. Not a single one says I must believe in the trinity or that Jesus is God. For that assertion to be held as truth requires one to go outside of the scriptures, namely, the Athenasian Creed. I'll pass on that, thank you!

Hi Rich, thank you for your response and research.

There is a way to Truly Know = FAITH in what God has spoken = His Word
Read and pray the Gospel of John unto the LORD.
Focus on the LORD Jesus in every detail.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Closely Examine Post #911 for there is no way to circumvent what is Written in Isaiah and Revelation.

Everyone who comes to the FATHER can only do so through the LORD Jesus Christ/Yashauh HaMoshiach

YAHshuah means this: God who came down or God who humbled Himself

What does Scripture say of Messiah:
A.) Isaiah 7:14 & Matthew 1:22-23 IMMANUEL = God with us
B.) John 1:1 & 1:14 the Word was God = The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us
C.) Phillipians 2:5-8 (YAHshuah = God humbled Himself)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God,
did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself (YAHshuah) and became obedient to the point of death,
even the death of the cross.

“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation ch1

 

[Rich R]

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what you convey.

John 17:21,

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

"...that they also may be one in us" is the text and it agrees with the Greek. If I changed the word "in" to "with" it was a mistake, but it wouldn't change the intended meaning, i.e. that we are one in God and Jesus.

As a side note, I wonder why Jesus didn't say, "that they may be one in me (or thee)?" Wouldn't the word "us" in the actual verse imply at least two?

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

You are making that distinction, not Jesus. Both Jesus and God understand the basic meaning of words and grammar.

Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

None of those verses say Jesus is God, unless there is a lot of twist and turns in grammar world. And it they did say Jesus is God, then there would be many contradictions with the many clear verses that I've quoted, none of which require any more than reading what was written. You correctly said Jesus is the Son of God. Why can't you just accept that as the way words are normally used? Sorry, but a son is not also his father.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

I see you doing that, but not Jesus. He always understood he was God's son, that his Father was greater than himself, that he didn't know things his Father knew, that his Father was also his God (God has a God?), that he had a different will than his Father's (he of course ignored his own will in favor of his Father's will), that he was tempted unlike his Father, that he was anointed by his Father (somebody anointed God?)...There are many more like this.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21).

And who would this God and Father of God be?

The four of you fail to understand the Word of God.

Because we understand that Jesus is the son of God and therefore can't also be God? You might want to look up the word "understand" in a dictionary

Since Lord Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30), then Jesus lives in the special place of being Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

YHWY and Emmanuel are both names and nothing more than names. There are hundreds of thousands of people with the name "Rich." Are they also really one person? I don't think so, because, besides myself, I personally know many others named "Rich" and I'm confident they're not all me.

 

[Rich R]

Hi Rich, thank you for your response and research.

There is a way to Truly Know = FAITH in what God has spoken = His Word
Read and pray the Gospel of John unto the LORD.
Focus on the LORD Jesus in every detail.

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

Closely Examine Post #911 for there is no way to circumvent what is Written in Isaiah and Revelation.

Everyone who comes to the FATHER can only do so through the LORD Jesus Christ/Yashauh HaMoshiach

YAHshuah means this: God who came down or God who humbled Himself

What does Scripture say of Messiah:
A.) Isaiah 7:14 & Matthew 1:22-23 IMMANUEL = God with us
B.) John 1:1 & 1:14 the Word was God = The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us
C.) Phillipians 2:5-8 (YAHshuah = God humbled Himself)
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God,
did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation,
taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself (YAHshuah) and became obedient to the point of death,
even the death of the cross.

“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.
And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation ch1

Well, you thanked me for my research which I appreciate, but your reply seems to suggest you didn't read it to much of any depth, which is fine. You are certainly not obliged to investigate something that may be new to you. I understand that.

But, perhaps you could look at one little part of my post again and explain where Daniel Wallace's, a noted Trinitarian, exegesis falls short? Here it is again for your convenience:

"After examining the grammatical possibilities in John 1:1 and whether the last theos in John 1:1 is indefinite (“a god”), definite (“the God”), or qualitative (that the logos has the qualities of God; the noun logos is being used to function like an adjective and give qualities to the noun logos), he concludes, “The most likely candidate for theos is qualitative. …Possible translations are as follows: ‘What God was the Word was’ (NEB)…The idea of a qualitative theos here is that the Word had all the attributes and qualities that ‘the God’ (of 1:1b) had”
​

What is it that Wallace doesn't understand?

​

Many of the other verse you mentioned in this post I've handled multiple times. Instead of telling me specifically where I'm wrong, you just keep re-quoting the same verses you believe say Jesus is God. For example, you mentioned Philippians 2:5-8 again. Do you remember what I said about that? For one thing, I pointed out that whatever Jesus thought of his relationship with God, we are to think the same thing. What else does, "...let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" mean? So are we to think we are also God? I said much more about these verses if you want to look. Sorry I can't tell you exactly where I said it, but it's in there somewhere.

 

[David in NJ]

Well, you thanked me for my research which I appreciate, but your reply seems to suggest you didn't read it to much of any depth, which is fine. You are certainly not obliged to investigate something that may be new to you. I understand that.

But, perhaps you could look at one little part of my post again and explain where Daniel Wallace's, a noted Trinitarian, exegesis falls short? Here it is again for your convenience:

"After examining the grammatical possibilities in John 1:1 and whether the last theos in John 1:1 is indefinite (“a god”), definite (“the God”), or qualitative (that the logos has the qualities of God; the noun logos is being used to function like an adjective and give qualities to the noun logos), he concludes, “The most likely candidate for theos is qualitative. …Possible translations are as follows: ‘What God was the Word was’ (NEB)…The idea of a qualitative theos here is that the Word had all the attributes and qualities that ‘the God’ (of 1:1b) had”
​

What is it that Wallace doesn't understand?

​

Many of the other verse you mentioned in this post I've handled multiple times. Instead of telling me specifically where I'm wrong, you just keep re-quoting the same verses you believe say Jesus is God. For example, you mentioned Philippians 2:5-8 again. Do you remember what I said about that? For one thing, I pointed out that whatever Jesus thought of his relationship with God, we are to think the same thing. What else does, "...let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus" mean? So are we to think we are also God? I said much more about these verses if you want to look. Sorry I can't tell you exactly where I said it, but it's in there somewhere.

Rich, i am not trying to tell you that you are wrong - i am showing you the Word who is Elohim Son from Genesis and is equal/ONE with Elohim FATHER and Elohim Holy Spirit

There is no other God(Elohim/plural) then Elohenu Abraham Elohenu Isaac Elohenu Jacob

NOTICE/OBSERVE/BELIEVE = the Scripture Places/Exalts and Quantifies these THREE as ONE/Echad Elohim

Therefore the WORD/SON is either equal in ALL Essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit or JESUS is a false god and you are dead in your sins.

Thus says the LORD,
the King and Redeemer of Israel, the LORD of Hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last,
and there is no God but Me.
Who then is like Me?
Let him say so! = JESUS said so as HE said: "IAM" and much more

JESUS said so and so did the FATHER and the Holy Spirit

Therefore the WORD/SON is either equal in ALL Eternal Essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit
or JESUS is a false god and you are dead in your sins.

 

[Rich R]

This Christian-professing person does more than call other posters "fools"

You understand I was being called a fool, that I didn't call anybody a fool?

#258 “Your words in your post are a LIE where you convey that Lord Jesus is not referred to as "the God" in the NT.”

Here's the entire post #258:

"True, the son is not his own father. It should be that simple, but somehow the meaning of simple words flies out the window and we end up saying that the son and the Father are one and the same. Go figure!

You are right about the meaning of the word, "god." Corinthians declares that there are actually many gods (1 Cor 8:5), and there are many gods. The Ancient Near Easterner would understand that "god" means someone with power and authority, including other humans. I think not saying God's actual name, Yahweh, causes many problems. His title, "God" is not at all unique, whereas His name, "Yahweh" is quite unique. He used it some 6,800 times in the OT. Odd we hardly ever hear it in the church assemblies though.

Yahweh is Yahweh and Jesus is Jesus. Very simple concept that our Yahweh given brains can actually understand. They're certainly not designed to grasp three people are actually somehow one person. Huge disconnect there."
​

Where exactly is the lie you mentioned?

 

[Rich R]

Rich, i am not trying to tell you that you are wrong - i am showing you the Word who is Elohim Son from Genesis and is equal/ONE with Elohim FATHER and Elohim Holy Spirit

I'm really sorry, but I just don't see where you got the appellations "Elohim Son" or "Elohim Holy Spirit" in Genesis.

Therefore the WORD/SON is either equal in ALL Essence as the Father and the Holy Spirit or JESUS is a false god and you are dead in your sins.

You mention 2 alternatives here. There is actually a third alternative, namely that Jesus is the Son of God, which is exactly what he is called about 35 times or so. What's wrong with that one?

You do realize that the word "essence" is not in the scriptures? Given that, where do you get that idea?