A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

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Pierac

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When having the Holy Spirit and Knowing the LORD and His Word
It is apparent that the message of the false teachers, prophets and christs is = "the Word was a god"

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me - Isaiah ch43

Therefore, we who hear the Voice of God know, HE who speaks Truth and he who lies.

David, David... Listen to Jesus...
Jesus tell us in Mark that it is possible to nullify God’s Word in our lives because you refuse to give up human tradition…
Mar 7:13
"thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

David.... Do you hear the voice of the God of Jesus? Because Jesus did!
" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

David... Jesus has a God... the very God whom gave him his Revelation... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

You said the Word was God.... what does that mean... Let Jesus show you!!!

John 12:48 "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one (God) who judges him; the word ( logos ) I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Again… Jesus spoke the Logos, as He is not the Logos! So who is the Logos? The very next verse tell us!

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father (GOD) Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

AS hard as I try... I can not make the blind to see...
Who's wrong? Me or your human traditions?
Paul
 
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David in NJ

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Well, you have a good point IF the phrase in John 1:1 is, "...and the Word was God." However, if that phrase is taken as, "...and the Word was godly" there is no problem. The logos was not something that was created at all. It's God's mind, which of course was not created. It's just part of the untreated God.

As I've said before, either translation of John 1:1 is OK, but it really is much more likely stating the God's plan was a Godly plan, which of course it would be given that God came up with it. I mentioned a noted Trinitarian that translates John 1:1 as, "...and the word was godly." There are actually many more scholars, most Trinitrarian, that now favor that translation.

Dear Richard, Elohim is Love, a Elohim of Truth a Elohim of Justice = HE will never lie to anyone and never has.

Print this Promise of Truth from Elohim for your heart, mind and soul to rejoice in and worship.

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me - Isaiah 43:10-11

 
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David in NJ

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David, David... Listen to Jesus...
Jesus tell us in Mark that it is possible to nullify God’s Word in our lives because you refuse to give up human tradition…
Mar 7:13
"thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

David.... Do you hear the voice of the God of Jesus? Because Jesus did!
" (John 8:40) "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

David... Jesus has a God... the very God whom gave him his Revelation... Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

AS hard as I try... I can not make the blind to see...
Who's wrong? Me or your human traditions?
Paul

Answer: As per the Word of God and the Revelation of Jesus Christ

Answer from God to you Paul: Revelation ch1 and ch22

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,
“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 22:12-16
And behold, I(JESUS) am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
I, JESUS, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

CLEAR as DAY
 
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Pierac

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GOD is the beginning and the ending . As far as the wise adult scholars . NO offense but no thanks .
As i wrote above , IT wasnt like the gosples were written so that only scholars could understand them .
YOU gotta FIRST BELIEVE what is written . Yall sat under men who later brought in ideas
and you learned their ways and their means and their interpretations . And claim we need to know greek or hebrew .
The thing is GOD IS IN CONTROL . I Dont need men to try and wrest things .
TOO many do that with lots of scriptures . Rather odd though , I Seem to notice
they all claim we HAVE the RIGHT UNDERSTANDING , come learn our greek or our scholars .
BUT rather odd it is that even their own g reek and hebrew and scholars interpret the greek to always mean WHAT THEY SAY IT DOES
OR TO JUSITFY their point . Adventist have one greek , the JW another greek , the prosperity preachers seem to use a greek
that justifies them too . RATHER ODD HUH . TO ME that simply means they are saying THE GREEK MEANETH THIS OR THAT
IN order to JUSTIFY THEIR OWN TEACHING . SO take that advice from this small child , my MIGHTY SCHOLARLY FRIEND .

Again... God has no Beginning or End... God is, was, and will be! Jesus was part of God's plan from the beginning, in time. Not out of time... let it sink in amigo.

BTY... I have no teaching to teach, nor teacher, no Church that I attend! I'm a seeker of the truth, one whom left the traditions of men many many years ago. The other Paul once said.... 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
I seek the parts from others... This is why you fail... you only seek to prove your beliefs, not test them to see if they are true!
But truth must abide... I can't not let false teaching prevail... Thus, I Post!
Paul
 

Pierac

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Answer: As per the Word of God and the Revelation of Jesus Christ

Answer from God to you Paul: Revelation ch1 and ch22

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”

Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me,
“Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death.

Revelation 22:12-16
And behold, I(JESUS) am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
I, JESUS, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”

CLEAR as DAY

Grab your spiritual ankles again David...
I am the Alpha and the Omega.
This is referenced to Revelation 1:8. But Revelation 1:8 is talking about The Almighty, Revelation 22:12 is not using this title for Jesus but for God again. If we read Revelation 22:6 it tells us who the subject is, "The Lord, the God of prophetic spirits." Jesus does say in Revelation 1:17 that, "I am the first and the last." We shall examine what he meant by that statement.

Just because the same title is used to describe two people does not mean that those two people are one. As we can easily read… David called King Saul "My Lord " but that does not make Saul God (1 Samuel 24:8).

Israel’s Judges were called "saviors" but that does not make them and Jesus one person? (Nehemiah 9:27).

Jeroboam the Second of Israel is called "Israel’s savior," but that does not make him Jesus? (2 Kings 13:5)

Before we discuss these verses it would benefit us to understand John’s view of God.
Examples:
John 17:3 "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."

Revelation 1:6 "Who (Jesus) has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."

John 20:17 But go to my brothers and tell them, "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

In these verses John does not consider Jesus to be God in any way. For John, Jesus has a God. John also does not believe Jesus to be omniscient even after his resurrected state. Revelation 1:1 says: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him."

Even after his resurrection Jesus is not omniscient. God still gives him revelations. Emphasis on God gives him. Now we will look at Revelation 1:17 with the correct background of John’s thinking, and not with a mind set on making Jesus God at all costs.

It is obvious that God Almighty is the first and the last in time, but how is Jesus also the first and the last? Jesus is the first because he is the firstborn in two ways. One, he is the firstborn of God, which to the Jews implied that as the firstborn you are entitled to be the heir of your father, which Jesus is (Hebrews 1:2). Also according to Strong’s Greek Dictionary it means foremost in importance, which Jesus certainly is. This also corresponds with Psalms 89: 28 - 30.
Secondly, Jesus is the firstborn from the dead to be resurrected, which is what Jesus is speaking about in Revelation 1:18 which follows his statement that he is the first and the last. It reads:
"I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever."

Pay Attention David..... God cannot Die...thus can not make the statement... "I once was dead"!!!

This is also is in agreement with Colossians 1: 18. Jesus is the last because when he comes again it will be the end of the present age, and he will be in effect the last one to enter this world while it is still under the influence of Satan. He (Jesus) will then usher in the Messianic kingdom of God

Clear as day!
You can let go of your ankles now...
Paul
 

Rich R

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the phrase "the Word was godly" is a falsehood as PROVEN by YHWH Himself = Isaiah 43:10-11

Before Me no god was formed,
and after Me none will come.
I, yes I, am the LORD,
and there is no Savior but Me.

There was none more godly then Enoch and yet Enoch was still contaminated by sin and needed a Savior.

When classify the Word as just "godly" you corrupt the Intent of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God Itself.

Since there is no other Elohim(God Plural) Before or After = then the Word is Elohim from the Beginning just as HE said.

Since there is no other Savior but Elohim = then the SON is Elohim SON with Elohim Father just as THEY said.
Since there is no other Spirit of Elohim = then the THREE are ONE just as Genesis, the Gospel and Revelation declare.
Well, I didn't invent Greek grammar. I just go along with it, and I'm really sorry to say that it is grammatically correct to translate, "και θεος ην ο λογοs" as, "and the word was Godly." Saying, "the word was God" creates many contradictions which I've pointed out many times, whereas the latter fits like a hand and a glove. The latter does not require 400 years of development resulting in a man made creed. Just read what God says and go from there.

I don't understand why you think, "and the word was Godly" is an impossible translation, other than it interferes with a preconceived idea. I think you'll agree that we ought to let the scriptures speak for themselves instead of injecting our own ideas.

When I say, "sheep," do I mean one sheep or many sheep? Sheep is an English word that only context will reveal if it's one sheep or many sheep. Elohim is a Hebrew word like that. There's tons of info on the internet so why not take advantage of that and see if I'm lying or not.

Also you might investigate the usage of Elohim in other parts of the Bible. I think you'll find that Yahweh is not the only elohim.

From Strong's Concordance:

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.​
 

David in NJ

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Again... God has no Beginning or End... God is, was, and will be! Jesus was part of God's plan from the beginning, in time. Not out of time... let it sink in amigo.

BTY... I have no teaching to teach, nor teacher, no Church that I attend! I'm a seeker of the truth, one whom left the traditions of men many many years ago. The other Paul once said.... 1Co 13:9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
I seek the parts from others... This is why you fail... you only seek to prove your beliefs, not test them to see if they are true!
But truth must abide... I can't not let false teaching prevail... Thus, I Post!
Paul

"Jesus was part of God's plan............" is a human error statement and cannot be found in Scripture.
You are a false teacher by speaking on your own accord against the Word of God.

It is that simple and that dangerous for you.

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the LORD?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;

there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am God,
and there is no other.
By Myself I have sworn;
truth has gone out from My mouth,
a word that will not be revoked:
Every knee will bow before Me,
every tongue will swear allegiance.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place
and gave Him the name above all names,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
 

Rich R

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"Jesus was part of God's plan............" is a human error statement and cannot be found in Scripture.
You are a false teacher by speaking on your own accord against the Word of God.

It is that simple and that dangerous for you.

Who foretold this long ago?
Who announced it from ancient times?
Was it not I, the LORD?
There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;

there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am God,
and there is no other.
By Myself I have sworn;
truth has gone out from My mouth,
a word that will not be revoked:
Every knee will bow before Me,
every tongue will swear allegiance.

Therefore God exalted Him to the highest place

and gave Him the name above all names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Hey David, just for the record, I think you're a really good guy. Too bad more people don't put as much effort into understanding God. The world would be a better place with more folks like you. I'm glad to call you my brother!
 
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David in NJ

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Well, I didn't invent Greek grammar. I just go along with it, and I'm really sorry to say that it is grammatically correct to translate, "και θεος ην ο λογοs" as, "and the word was Godly." Saying, "the word was God" creates many contradictions which I've pointed out many times, whereas the latter fits like a hand and a glove. The latter does not require 400 years of development resulting in a man made creed. Just read what God says and go from there.

I don't understand why you think, "and the word was Godly" is an impossible translation, other than it interferes with a preconceived idea. I think you'll agree that we ought to let the scriptures speak for themselves instead of injecting our own ideas.

When I say, "sheep," do I mean one sheep or many sheep? Sheep is an English word that only context will reveal if it's one sheep or many sheep. Elohim is a Hebrew word like that. There's tons of info on the internet so why not take advantage of that and see if I'm lying or not.

Also you might investigate the usage of Elohim in other parts of the Bible. I think you'll find that Yahweh is not the only elohim.

From Strong's Concordance:

H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.​

This is why YAHUAH/Yahweh eternally attached HIS Identity to THREE individuals that would picture for us, the Echad True Elohim.

Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Elohim also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the Elohe(plural) of your fathers—
Elohe Abraham, Elohe Isaac, Elohe Jacob—has sent me to you.’
This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.
Exodus 3:15-16

Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit
 

David in NJ

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But the phrase, "Jesus is God" is found somewhere in the scriptures? I don't think it is.

Elohim Father Elohim Son Elohim Holy Spirit is in the Scriptures = all throughout beginning in Genesis, Exodus, Isaiah, Gospels, Acts, Revelation

Before the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us as 'JESUS' - HE was the WORD who was Elohim from the beginning.

This is why Exodus and Isaiah speaks of HIM as LORD - and then when HE came to earth Jesus always spoke of HIS FATHER.

No man has ever seen the FATHER but the SON.
 

David in NJ

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Hey David, just for the record, I think you're a really good guy. Too bad more people don't put as much effort into understanding God. The world would be a better place with more folks like you. I'm glad to call you my brother!

Likewise Richard, i enjoyed speaking with you. Please take one scripture at a time and always start at the Beginning and then do comparison checks to see with.
You will eventually SEE that there is no confusion or contradiction in the Scripture = God is not the author of confusion.

Richard, i am pleading with you in His Love = Please print out Isaiah 45:10-11 in large print and post it on the wall where you can see it and speak it out everyday:

There is no other God but Me,
a righteous God and Savior;
there is none but Me.
Turn to Me and be saved,
all the ends of the earth;
for I am God,
and there is no other.
 

Keiw

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Well, just about everything you said is true except for: "They still had the true God in their religion."

They crucified the One True Elohim Son, therefore whatever they believed(to this day) to be god is not the TRUE LIVING ELOHIM.

LORD YAHshuah(Jesus) says: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Do not follow in their sin of unbelief Keiw, there is no Eternal Life apart from the only Name that can save you = LORD Jesus Christ


The renting of the banner, the moment Jesus died was the cutting them off. God wanted them to turn around and repent and listen to Jesus, instead they sent him to his death. That was the final straw. That is when God left them permanently. He did leave the door open to them at Matt 23:39--they outright refuse. It is still fact-they had and knew the true living God-a single being God-YHWH(Jehovah)
 

Keiw

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the LORD Jesus Christ spoke in error?
if you believe this you cannot be saved

LORD YAHshuah(Jesus) says: "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.


No i was referring to the Israelite spiritual leaders claiming Jesus was saying he was God. He never said that.
 

Keiw

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In Matthew ch22 is the Triune Elohim and Jesus clearly expresses it.

Jesus never agreed with God being a singular 'one' and it went right over the heads of the Jews, and yourself, on what Jesus said to them of who HE is.

But know this, if you do not believe who HE says HE IS, you will die in your sins.



Dear Keiw, Please consider the words of the LORD

Jesus answered, “You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.”
Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”
So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”
And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God;"


Jesus was his Fathers image-Coll 1:15--He only spoke what the Father taught him to speak. He only did the Fathers will( John 5:30)--that is how they could see the Father. Yes he= the one sent sent forth by God= the Messiah.
 

David in NJ

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Jesus was his Fathers image-Coll 1:15--He only spoke what the Father taught him to speak. He only did the Fathers will( John 5:30)--that is how they could see the Father. Yes he= the one sent sent forth by God= the Messiah.

Keiw, keep in mind that from the Beginning/Genesis, God is not singular as the word for God is Elohim which is plural and literally means Gods.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth."
God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1d) gods 2)

This is where all understanding Begins = all THREE are present in the Beginning.

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the surface of the waters. And Elohim said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness" = 3x Plurality of Elohim
 
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tigger 2

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Keiw, keep in mind that from the Beginning/Genesis, God is not singular as the word for God is Elohim which is plural and lieteraly means Gods.

Gesesis 1:1 "In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth."
God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1d) gods 2)

This is where all understanding Begins = all THREE are present in the Beginning.

Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the surface of the waters. And Elohim said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.

Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness" = 3x Plurality of Elohim
................................................
ELOHIM - Plural 'God'

Many trinitarian apologists will tell us that the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is plural because it shows that God is a trinity. For example:

"Among Trinitarian Christian writers it is [often] seen as evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, a plurality in the Godhead." - Theopedia, "Elohim."
......................................................

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ucted] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:
“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:
“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew
"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

The famous trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,
“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”

Both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 show God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:
Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:
“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:
ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:
“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!
 
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Kermos

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lol i put the "just as" in really big bold letters, and you still ignore it. but thats the thing, gotta ignore a lot with this doctrine, mostly scripture and common sense, in order for it to work.

You desperately try to change the Word of God such that "just as" becomes "and one and the same as" in John 17:21-22, so you are making yourself out to be greater than the Word of God because you replace the sayings of the Word of God by way of your hearts treasure.

Let's look at the grammar of John 17:21-22, but the phrase "just as" needs to be examined because you all have such a profound problem with it's linguistical implication. Here is the example:

"This thing has a color" just as "that thing has a color".

The "this thing" is not the "that thing".

Both the "this thing" and the "that thing" have a color.

Nonetheless, the "this thing" is not the "that thing".

With that fundamental grammar established, let's return to John 17:21-22.

Lord Jesus says "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me" (John 17:21).

Jesus did not say "they also may be one with Us" - which is what unbelievers convey.

Lord Jesus continues "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one" (John 17:22).

Jesus distinguishes between two ones - to clarify - (1) His first mention of "one" in the verse being about the children of God with "they may be one", but (2) His second mention of "one" in the verse being God.

Jesus includes Himself as being God because He says "We are one".

We just covered fundamental grammar, and more importantly we covered Spiritual Truth (John 14:6).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one with God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

You disbelieve the Word of God because, as shown above, in your heart you wickedly add to and/or subtract from the Word of God as recorded in John 17:21-22.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).
 

David in NJ

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................................................
ELOHIM - Plural 'God'

Many trinitarian apologists will tell us that the Hebrew word for God (Elohim) is plural because it shows that God is a trinity. For example:

"Among Trinitarian Christian writers it is [often] seen as evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity, a plurality in the Godhead." - Theopedia, "Elohim."
......................................................

That the Hebrew plural is often used for a singular noun to denote “a ‘plural’ of majesty or excellence” is well-known by all Biblical Hebrew language experts and has been known from at least the time of Gesenius (1786-1842), who is still regarded as one of the best authorities for Biblical Hebrew!

Gesenius’ Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament (“long regarded as a standard work for students”), p. 49, shows that elohim, (“God/gods”) is sometimes used in a numerically plural sense for angels, judges, and false gods. But it also says,

“The plural of majesty [for elohim], occurs, on the other hand, more than two thousand times.” And that elohim when used in that sense “occurs in a [numerically] singular sense” and is “constr[ued] with a verb ... and adjective in the singular.”

Gesenius - Kautzsch’s Hebrew Grammar, 1949 ed., pp. 398, 399, says:
“The pluralis excellentiae or maiestatis ... is properly a variety of the abstract plural, since it sums up the several characteristics belonging to the idea, besides possessing the secondary sense of an intensification of the original idea. It is thus closely related to the plurals of amplification .... So, especially Elohim ... ‘God’ (to be distinguished from the plural ‘gods’, Ex. 12:12, etc.) .... That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Peloubet’s Bible Dictionary, 1925 ed. Pg. 224:

Elohim "is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God."

More modern publications (trinitarian Protestant and Catholic) also make similar acknowledgments of the intended plural of majesty or excellence meaning for elohim. (See the New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967, Vol. v., p. 287.)

Nelson’s Expository Dictionary of the Old Testament, describes elohim:
“The common plural form ‘elohim,’ a plural of majesty.” - Unger and White, 1980, p. 159.

Pluralis Majestatis: Biblical Hebrew
"The term ‘majestic plural’ or pluralis majestatis refers to the use of a plural word to refer honorifically to a single person or entity. It is also called the ‘plural of respect’, the ‘honorific plural’, the ‘plural of excellence’, or the ‘plural of intensity’. In the Hebrew Bible such plural forms are most commonly used when referring to the God of Israel, e.g., adonim ‘I am a master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Mal. 1.6), although it can also be used when referring to a human, e.g., abraham adonaw ‘Abraham his master (lit. ‘masters’)’ (Gen. 24.9), an object, e.g. gibroteka ‘your grave (lit. ‘graves’)’ (2 Kgs 22.20), ...." - ENCYCLOPEDIA OF HEBREW LANGUAGE AND LINGUISTICS, p. 145, vol. 3, 2013.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says:
“It is characteristic of Heb[rew] that extension, magnitude, and dignity, as well as actual multiplicity, are expressed by the pl[ural].” - Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1984 ed., Vol. II, p. 1265.

Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.

The famous trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,
“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”

Both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 show God calling Moses "a god" (elohim). This alone shows the error of some that the plural elohim must mean a "plural oneness" unless we want to believe Moses was a multiple-person Moses!

And The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Zondervan Publishing, 1986, tells us:
Elohim, though plural in form, is seldom used in the OT as such (i.e. ‘gods’). Even a single heathen god can be designated with the plural elohim (e.g. Jdg. 11:24; 1 Ki. 11:5; 2 Ki. 1:2). In Israel the plural is understood as the plural of fullness; God is the God who really, and in the fullest sense of the word, is God.” - p. 67, Vol. 2.

The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:
“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.

And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:
ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.

A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:
“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”

And the prestigious work edited by Hastings says about this:

"It is exegesis of a mischievous if pious sort that would find the doctrine of the Trinity in the plural form elohim [God]" ("God," Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics).

To show how ancient Jewish scholars themselves understood this we can look at the work of the seventy Hebrew scholars who translated the ancient Hebrew Scriptures (OT) into Greek several centuries before the time of Christ. The Greek language did not use the “plural of excellence” that the Hebrew did. So, if we see a plural used in the Greek Septuagint, it was really intended to represent more than one individual!

So how is elohim rendered in the Greek Septuagint by those ancient Hebrew scholars? Whenever it clearly refers to Jehovah God, it is always found to be singular in number (just as in New Testament Greek): theos ! Whenever elohim clearly refers to a plural (in number) noun, it is always found to be plural in number in Greek (just as in the New Testament Greek): theoi or theois (“gods”).

For example: “I am the Lord thy God [elohim - plural of excellence in Hebrew becomes theos - singular in the Greek Septuagint]” - Ex. 20:2. And “know that the Lord he is God [as always, the plural elohim, as applied to the God of Israel, becomes the singular, theos in the Septuagint] he made us...” - Ps. 100:3.

But when elohim really does mean plural in number, we see it rendered into the Greek plural for “gods” in the Septuagint: “Thou shalt not worship their gods [elohim in Hebrew becomes theois - plural in the Greek Septuagint], nor serve them .... And thou shalt serve the Lord thy God [singular - Greek].” - Ex. 23:24-25.

We see exactly the same thing happening for translations of the plural elohim in the ancient Septuagint and in the Christian NT.

Yes, all the NT Bible writers, whether quoting from the OT or writing their own God-inspired NT scriptures, always used the singular “God” (theos) in NT Greek when speaking of the only true God of the Bible. (If the plural form had been used for the only true God, we would even discover a new “trinity” at John 10:34.)

It is absolutely incredible that John, Paul, and the other inspired NT writers would not have used the plural Greek form to translate the plural Hebrew form of “God” if they had intended in any degree to imply that God was in any way more than one person!

Genesis is the Foundation of all Truth Beginning with the plurality of Elohim.
Genesis is the Foundation of the Gospel of Elohim
Genesis vividly describes who IS the Plurality of Elohim.
 

Kermos

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nope, this is more confusion, all angels and heavenly beings are gods, saying Jesus is a god would be the same as saying He is a son of the Most High. believing another god exist is not having another god, worshiping another god, as a god, is having another god. Jesus teaches we are to worship the Father, Jesus is the mediator between us and the Father. you cant have a mediator for yourself, like trins believe, the Most High mediates to the Most High, which makes no sense at all.





Thomas didnt proclaim Jesus to be the Most High, your trinity doctrine is blinding you again, lost count of how many times this has been explained. but lets say that Thomas is making this proclamation, in front of the other Apostles, why did they not confirm this, yet later on in the same book we see:

but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus is the Christ, Son of the Most High, this is what they believed Jesus to be. but what your saying is they, the ones trained by the living Jesus, just didnt know and rather we should believe you.

This post is for you too @Aunty Jane and @tigger 2 since both of you liked jaybird's posts on this subject.

You have more than one God because you say that John 1:1 contains "the Word was a god". "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

You wickedly steal the deity of Jesus Christ in your heart's treasure. "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15).

You are in violation of at least two Commandments!

You most certainly deny Apostolic teaching about Jesus because the Apostle Thomas says "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

Thomas, being a Jew, knew the Commandment "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3), so when Thomas called Jesus "my God" then Thomas meant that Jesus is YHWH God because Thomas has no gods before YHWH God, that is, Jesus is YHWH God according to the words of the Apostle Thomas.

Thomas is not going to call Jesus God resulting in two gods.

The very moment Thomas said "my God" (John 20:28) to Yeshua HaMashiyach, Thomas made clear that Jesus is El Elyon (God Most High), the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).
 
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