John Calvin and Calvinism.

[PinSeeker]

We do not have the real free will remaining that Adam was created as having before he fell

We do, actually, but we are do not have the same nature that Adam possessed before the Fall. Free will is not the issue. The state of our heart is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[reformed1689]

God feels that they are deserving or worthy to be saved. 2 Peter 3:9 says God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If God felt they were not deserving of being saved, then He would have let them perish.

Why would I care what Pillars of Grace is if it is in the upside down world of Calvinism?
Do you know everything about false religions? Why would we need to know all the details about them?

First, you take 2 Pet. 3:9 out of context. It is not talking about all individuals, it is talking about the beloved, the elect. Read it again. If God truly did not want anyone to perish, nobody would be in Hell. You do believe in Hell right?

You have shown you actually don't know anything about Calvinism. You have yet to tell me one part of it that is unbiblical.

 

[reformed1689]

We do, actually, but we are do not have the same nature that Adam possessed before the Fall. Free will is not the issue. The state of our heart is.

Grace and peace to you.

Right, we do not have absolute free will. We have a will that is enslaved to sin. A will that wants sin and nothing else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You haven't demolished anything sir. Do you even know what Pillars of Grace is? No, obviously not. The firefighter is not an equivalent analogy. You seem to think everyone DESERVES to be saved. Is that your belief? Is it your belief all humans DESERVE to be saved?

Yes. I have demolished Calvinism with 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:10.
In Calvinism: Those who perish are perishing NOT because of anything they did, but because God simply chose not to Elect them. Hence, why is called UNconditional Election. Yet, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH. That’s the reason why they are perishing. It’s not because God did not Elect them or because God elected them to reprobation.

Jonah 3:10 shows God changing His mind on destroying the Ninevites based on their forsaking their evil ways. This again is not possible in Calvinism because the individual does not change God’s decision on whether they are saved or not.

 

[reformed1689]

Yes. I have demolished Calvinism with 2 Thessalonians 2:10 and Jonah 3:10.
In Calvinism: Those who perish are perishing NOT because of anything they did, but because God simply chose not to Elect them. Hence, why is called UNconditional Election. Yet, 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH. That’s the reason why they are perishing. It’s not because God did not Elect them or because God elected them to reprobation.

Jonah 3:10 shows God changing His mind on destroying the Ninevites based on their forsaking their evil ways. This again is not possible in Calvinism because the individual does not change God’s decision on whether they are saved or not.

No, that is not why they are perishing. They are perishing because of their SIN.

 

[PinSeeker]

Right, we do not have absolute free will. We have a will that is enslaved to sin. A will that wants sin and nothing else.

Well, I wouldn't say "that wants sin and nothing else." We can want and do good things, even things that are not sinful, or sin, in and of themselves. But... okay.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

First, you take 2 Pet. 3:9 out of context. It is not talking about all individuals, it is talking about the beloved, the elect.

Nowhere does the context enforce the Calvinist interpretation on 2 Peter 3:9.

Read it again. If God truly did not want anyone to perish, nobody would be in Hell. You do believe in Hell right?

That’s a false line of thinking, my friend. There are conditions of the faith that need to be met in order to not be in hell and to then later perish in the Lake of Fire. Not everyone meets these conditions of faith to be saved because of their own choosing and not because GOD forced that decision upon them. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If this is referring to the Elect then how can they be in danger of ever perishing? In Calvinism: The Elect cannot perish, and the Non-Elect cannot repent.

You have shown you actually don't know anything about Calvinism. You have yet to tell me one part of it that is unbiblical.

Ah, yes. The standard cookie cutter reply by Calvinists.

 

[PinSeeker]

If I walk away from God He didn't fail.

If God had begun a good work in you, if you "walk away" and are lost to Him again, He would have failed in bringing it to completion at the day of Christ (as Paul puts it). He would have failed in keeping you from stumbling (as Jude puts it). He would have failed in giving you an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, in guarding you through faith by His power for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (as Peter puts it). Yes, He would have failed. But, thanks be to God, He never fails.

He did everything necessary for my salvation. Just as he did for Israel.

Yes, but this is a different thing altogether.

Did God ordain Israel's rejection of him?

A partial hardening has come upon Israel.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[reformed1689]

Well, I wouldn't say "that wants sin and nothing else." We can want and do good things, even things that are not sinful, or sin, in and of themselves. But... okay.

Grace and peace to you.

That's not what Scripture states. Romans 3:10-12

 

[reformed1689]

Nowhere does the context enforce the Calvinist interpretation on 2 Peter 3:9.



That’s a false line of thinking, my friend. There are conditions of the faith that need to be met in order to not be in hell and to then later perish in the Lake of Fire. Not everyone meets these conditions of faith to be saved because of their own choosing and not because GOD forced that decision upon them. God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. If this is referring to the Elect then how can they be in danger of ever perishing? In Calvinism: The Elect cannot perish, and the Non-Elect cannot repent.



Ah, yes. The standard cookie cutter reply by Calvinists.

What is the antecedent in 2 Peter 3:9. Who is it referring to? Who is the any? Look it up.

Read Romans 9. Read Romans 3. Read John 6. You ignore LARGE portions of Scripture in order to deny the truth. Jesus said nobody can come to him unless GRANTED by the Father. It also says the father must draw them. He does not draw everyone or everyone would be saved. If All were granted, all would be saved. That is what Jesus said.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: Well sure, all the saints failed in a great many ways, just like we all do. We all sin and fall short (way short) of the glory of God all the time. Not to say "God's okay with that" or anything, because He's certainly not. But this is a total shift from what we were discussing.
No it's not. Because in Calvinists theology God ordained their failures.

Yes it is. A total shift. You just changed ~ I guess unwittingly ~ the whole thrust of the conversation. No, John Calvin's theology was certainly not that God ordained their failures (sin). He (God) did not.

There's nothing that happens in your Calvinist world that God isn't ok with, nothing he didn't ultimately cause himself.

"Think" what you want, man. You're your own person.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[reformed1689]

No it's not. Because in Calvinists theology God ordained thier failures. There's nothing that happens in your Calvinist world that God isn't ok with, nothing he didn't ultimately cause himself.

ALl this shows is that you don't understand Calvinism.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker said: Well, I wouldn't say "that wants sin and nothing else." We can want and do good things, even things that are not sinful, or sin, in and of themselves. But... okay.
That's not what Scripture states. Romans 3:10-12

Two things:

1. In that passage, the quote that Paul is citing is that, naturally speaking, "no one seeks for God." So together, they have become worthless, and what follows that is because of that. And the fallout of that is that even the good things we may do are no good to God, because it is all horribly tainted with sin.

2. This closely follows point one. In saying ~ quoting, actually ~ that "no one does good, not even one," the context is not simplistic; it is not that no one ever does good things.

Grace and peace to you

 

[reformed1689]

Two things:

1. In that passage, the quote that Paul is citing is that, naturally speaking, "no one seeks for God." So together, they have become worthless, and what follows that is because of that. And the fallout of that is that even the good things we may do are no good to God, because it is all horribly tainted with sin.

2. This closely follows point one. In saying ~ quoting, actually ~ that "no one does good, not even one," the context is not simplistic; it is not that no one ever does good things.

Grace and peace to you

I agree, but they are not good because of the intentions behind them. Nobody does good. That's a simple statement. They want recognition, or think that somehow gets them somewhere or obtain something. That was my point to another poster earlier. Just because an act itself is good, does not make it a good work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, that is not why they are perishing. They are perishing because of their SIN.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says they are perishing because they received not the love of the truth.

 

[reformed1689]

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says they are perishing because they received not the love of the truth.

What is your point with this verse? How do you reconcile this with verse 11 in your view?

 

[praise_yeshua]

I don't know of ANY person who rejoices in the damnation of others. This is a strawman argument.

As far as Calvin? What is your point here. The doctrine comes from Scripture, not Calvin. And used a theology that replaces Christ with themselves? What on earth are you talking about? That is nonsense.

Your entire theology is a "strawman". You can't defend it from the Scriptures. Calvinism is "Calvin's" theology. Nothing more. I posted a verse from the Scriptures that speaks of Jesus Christ being God's Elect.

You should have recognized this.

If you really know Calvinism, you would know the final argument from any Calvinist is "God's Good Pleasure"

That is supposed rejoicing in God's choice to damn the vast majority of humanity to hell without remedy.

 

[praise_yeshua]

You haven't demolished anything sir. Do you even know what Pillars of Grace is? No, obviously not. The firefighter is not an equivalent analogy. You seem to think everyone DESERVES to be saved. Is that your belief? Is it your belief all humans DESERVE to be saved?

You do not deserve to be saved anymore than any other human being. Why are you trying to exclude your brothers in humanity?

Cain did this. Do you remember Cain? He hated Abel.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

ALl this shows is that you don't understand Calvinism.

This is a cliche line by Calvinists, friend.

See post #947.

We are able to read about the 5 points of Calvinism online and understand what they are saying.

 

[praise_yeshua]

This is a cliche line by Calvinists, friend.

See post #947.

We are able to read about the 5 points of Calvinism online and understand what they are saying.

It does seem to make them feel just a little superior than they already believe themselves to be.....