John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Ronald Nolette]

Can a believer abide in sin and still be saved while they commit that sin?
Yes, or no?

Yes!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Can a believer abide in sin and still be saved while they commit that sin?
Yes, or no?

Did Jesus die and pay the penalty for all your sin or just most of them?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have offered verses. Perhaps you missed them. The biggest issue is that limited atonement just isn't biblical. You want verses? Fine.
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 John 4:14

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

2 Corinthians 5:14-15
And he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:19
That is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Romans 8:32
He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

2 Corinthians 5:14
For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Romans 5:12-19
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. ...

1 Timothy 2:1-15
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, ...

and you mistake jesus being the propitiation for all mankinds sin as meaning all have received that atonement!

I fully agree that Jesus paid for every single persons sin on the cross! By doing so, He ruled out any other means by which a person can be saved!

Jesus death and resurrection is able to save all mankind without a doubt! But only the elect benefit from His death, unless you are preaching universal salvation.

 

[reformed1689]

This is a cliche line by Calvinists, friend.

See post #947.

We are able to read about the 5 points of Calvinism online and understand what they are saying.

Yet you still have yet to show that they are false or what about them is false. Why is that? Hmmm....

 

[Ronald Nolette]

They certainly can, God reveals himself to all.

Yes and as it says afterwards- that the whole world is guilty!

The natural man CANNOT please God! Accepting Jesus as Savior pleases God- How can the unsaved natural man do that if they CANNOT please God!
The natural man cannot perceive th ethings of God- How can they understand the gospel and receive it- they cannot understand it- it is foolishness to the unsaved man!

 

[reformed1689]

You do not deserve to be saved anymore than any other human being. Why are you trying to exclude your brothers in humanity?

Cain did this. Do you remember Cain? He hated Abel.

Did I say I deserved to be saved? Go somewhere else with your strawman argument that has no bearing on anything I actually said.

I'll ask you the question, who DESERVES to be saved?

 

[reformed1689]

Your entire theology is a "strawman". You can't defend it from the Scriptures. Calvinism is "Calvin's" theology. Nothing more. I posted a verse from the Scriptures that speaks of Jesus Christ being God's Elect.

You should have recognized this.

If you really know Calvinism, you would know the final argument from any Calvinist is "God's Good Pleasure"

That is supposed rejoicing in God's choice to damn the vast majority of humanity to hell without remedy.

Go ahead, try me, show me something I cannot defend from Scripture.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

So when we read Romans 8:6-9, we are reading about the carnal mind (or carnal person) who believes they have to be circumcised in order to be initially saved and that they have to keep the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses). But by their trying to keep the Old Law (Which is no longer required), they end up becoming slaves to their own sin (Romans 7:14-24). This kind of person (who is trapped in the Old Law) is thinking in carnal terms. They want to obey God, but they cannot because they don't have Jesus Christ in their life to obey because they are not playing ball on God's terms in being first saved by God's grace (Which is an aspect of salvation that is without the deeds of the Law because they are being initially saved by God’s grace and mercy).

Wrong wrong wrong! You are falsely making Romans 8 be circumcision. Teh letter to Romans dealt with many issues, not just circumcision! Paul furhter goes on in that chapter talking about being predestined and justified and glorified!

YOu little sermon in a second here is wrong!

Romans 8:2
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”

Wrong again! Once again you are conflating cicumcision with the law of sin and death. REad Romans 7- the flesh is bound by the law of sin and death! He is not talking about teh law of Moses, but the fallen human nature!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well said. Thank you for explaining it. I would partially agree with this interpretation. I believe that God's wrath abides on those who do not believe and that they are at at war with God. But this would only be in part that they would be at war and abiding on God's wrath. Why? Well, I also believe that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance, too (2 Peter 3:9). God holds out his hands to a disobedient and gainsaying people, as well (Romans 10:21). Jesus said to the Father, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34). So God's love and mercy also knows no bounds. God can equally be wrathful at them but yet love them equally in such a way to desire the best outcome for them so that they might be saved. Oh, there is those words again. Might be saved. That's what 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says. Yet, Might be saved does not fit into 5 point Calvinism. God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. God is good. Some folks tend to play on the darker side of God and de-emphasize the love of God. This is kind of how see the tenets of 5 point Calvinism. No offense of course. This is just how I see it when I read the Bible, and examine Calvinism. For Calvinism does not align with basic morality (or life moral lessons or real world examples). Basic morality is taught in the Bible just in case somebody broke their moral compass.

And therein lies the paradox. Because both predestination and the call of the gospel to the whole world are both true! And that willing is not his will but desire! If God wills none should perish, then none would perish!

Yes Gods love and mercy does know no bounds- but you also have to factor in that God knows the end from the beginning and He does things according to the counsel of His Will and not to the vagaries of man! God knows those who are His. For He draws them to Jesus and we come!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Did I say I deserved to be saved? Go somewhere else with your strawman argument that has no bearing on anything I actually said.

You used an argument that requires such a position to be true. Retract your argument or restate. You appealed to the argument "does everyone deserve to be saved".... Which would require that you believe that "YOU" deserve to be saved.

Like anyone said such a thing themselves. You're not being accurate in speech.

I'll ask you the question, who DESERVES to be saved?

Not you. Why did you deserve to be saved at the exclusion of your fellowman?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Go ahead, try me, show me something I cannot defend from Scripture.

You can't defend that you're the "Elect" of God.

Election is a choice in God's Son. Not in you.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No. I am telling you that Paul is saying that in Ephesians 2 that they (the believers) were once dead in trespasses and sins in their old life of sin before they accepted Jesus and His grace. This proves conditional salvation and not election. For if God elected them from the foundation of the world to be saved, then they would still be saved even in their unbelief before coming to Christ. But in Calvinism, regeneration prior to believing the gospel or repenting is salvation. But the Scriptures say repent and be converted (See: Acts of the Apostles 3:19). According to the Bible, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to all who will believe it.

Once again, another parqadox of Scripture that is true!

We are lost in time- but the elect from the foundation of the world! No I will not be dogmatic about this next statement: But I know that Scripture teaches we were chosen before the foundation of the world. We were lost in time but God insured we would be saved- because as it is written no man can come to Jesus unless the Father drags HIm and all who are dragged, Jesus will not cast out!

this is why the concept of postional and experiential truths was "coined" The bible speaks of us as perfect now, seated in heaven now, dead now, hid in Christ now, Jesus lives through us now, Justified now, glorified now! bujt yet we are not perfect now, I certainly don't live in a glorified body now! etc. But both are still true!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Once again, another parqadox of Scripture that is true!

We are lost in time- but the elect from the foundation of the world! No I will not be dogmatic about this next statement: But I know that Scripture teaches we were chosen before the foundation of the world. We were lost in time but God insured we would be saved- because as it is written no man can come to Jesus unless the Father drags HIm and all who are dragged, Jesus will not cast out!

Refreshing.... A Calvinist that will admit to dragging. Where do you get "dragging" from?

Must be nice to be so special.....

 

[Enoch111]

If God wills none should perish, then none would perish!

That is patently false. While God wills not none should perish, He requires obedience to the Gospel.

 

[praise_yeshua]

That is patently false. While God wills not none should perish, He requires obedience to the Gospel.

It is my experience that it is almost impossible to get a Calvinist to employ anything other than rudimentary mathematics.

They LOVE to "boil down" God to "1 plus 1"..... When God is complicated.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Your a non-Calvinist who believes in the 5 points of Calvinism. Right. So how is that not a contradiction?

Well that is me whjether you wish to believe it or not. I do not go to a reformed church, I do not hold teh Injstitues of Chriustian religion as my source systematic theology. I am Baptist. Just because I believe in teh biblical trruth of the five points, does not mean I accpet all of Calvins teachiungs! It has been too long since I read Institutes to even try to guess hhow much I would accept or reject.

So if you want to insist I am a Calvinist, I will insist you are an Armeniast.

I am sure the King James translators know more about the Greek than we do.
Besides, even with this English rendering it does not help you. In Calvinism there is no such thing as a person's choice involved in determining whether or not they are saved. In Calvinism: Their personal choice, or actions makes no difference to God because God does not determine if they are saved if they receive or don't receive the love of the truth. In Calvinism: God saves based on Election.

I am sure they did! But the English they spoke is very different than the colloquial American English. We would have a difficult time understanding our English brethren from the Elizebethian Age and we would both be speaking English!

This makes absolutely no sense.
You say you are not a Calvinist and yet you believe in the 5 points of Calvinism?
Just believing in the five points of Calvinism makes you a Calvinist even if you reject the name Calvinism.
For the theology was invented by John Calvin.

Wrong again ! I can accept anything Calvin, or Armenius, or Swingli or Luther wrote that corresponds with Scripture without being an Armeniast, Lutheran, Calvinist etc., and the five points are very easily defendable by Scripture!

There is a difference between God providing a way of escape (Which is what the Provisional Atonement is) vs. people wanting to play ball on God's terms in regards to having the proper faith so as to be saved by God.

Careful you will be accussed of believing in limited atonement, just weari ngthe name provisional instead of limited! What does provisional mean anyhow?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Refreshing.... A Calvinist that will admit to dragging. Where do you get "dragging" from?

Must be nice to be so special.....

The word draw there is this: 1670 helkýō – properly, induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction-power involved with the drawing.

This word is a compulsion use. Like when the apostles drew in the nets when Jesus told them to cast it- they had to drag them in .

That is why I like drag- Because the unsaved man does not perceice the things of God- they are foolsih to Him. Unsaved cannot understand the things of God.

Also unsaved man cannot please God!

 

[reformed1689]

You used an argument that requires such a position to be true. Retract your argument or restate. You appealed to the argument "does everyone deserve to be saved".... Which would require that you believe that "YOU" deserve to be saved.

Like anyone said such a thing themselves. You're not being accurate in speech.



Not you. Why did you deserve to be saved at the exclusion of your fellowman?

No what I said does not necessitate that I deserve to be saved. The point was NOBODY deserves to be saved. The fact that God saves ANYWAY is gracious and merciful. He is not required to save anyone at all.

 

[reformed1689]

You can't defend that you're the "Elect" of God.

Election is a choice in God's Son. Not in you.

Um, what do you think Election actually is and what I believe about it? Because you have no idea what you are talking about.l

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That is patently false. While God wills not none should perish, He requires obedience to the Gospel.

So mans disobedience is stronger than the Will of god?

Mans free will supersedes gods will? I don't think so! Teh word is boulamai and it is in the Present participle active. It is not gods Will but Gods desire! Even Jesus knew the majority of mankind ends up in the lake of fire!

Gods will is sovereign in the universe- nothing or no one can contradict the will of god!