Are we sealed with the Holy Spirit?

[Johann]

What you quoted from Paul about the 'child' point can be misunderstood by new babes here. Some would actually believe that Timothy was born with The Holy Spirit, instead of being given by Paul's laying on of hands.

And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures,.... And therefore must know that the doctrines he had learned were agreeable to them; and so is another reason why he should continue in them. The Jews very early learned their children the holy Scripture. Philo the Jew says (w), εκ πρωτης ηλικιας "from their very infancy"; a phrase pretty much the same with this here used. It is a maxim with the Jews (x), that when a child was five years of age, it was proper to teach him the Scriptures. Timothy's mother being a Jewess, trained him up early in the knowledge of these writings, with which he became very conversant, and under divine influence and assistance, arrived to a large understanding of them; and it is a practice that highly becomes Christian parents; it is one part of the nurture and admonition of the Lord they should bring up their children in: the wise man's advice in Pro_22:6 is very good.
J.

 

[Happy Trails]

It is all Timothy was instructed in at the time of the quote you cited. THAT is the point. Timothy was instructed to dive deeper into the Law and the Prophets. That is what he had from his youth. That is the testimony from YHVH about his Messiah. The feasts of YHVH are the prophecies Jesus fulfilled. Otherwise, anyone could claim to be the Messiah. Their evidence would be no less than what Jesus would have had.

The only area where Paul was "corrected" was the revelation that "Jesus is the Messiah" can only be understood in depth through knowledge of the Law and the Prophets. That is why Paul used it to PROVE Jesus to the unbelieving Jews. Acts 28:23

Jesus said the Law explained who He is: John 5:46 Luke 24:44

Doesn't everyone acknowledge that the OT is full of prophecies about Jesus? That is what the Law is. It is YHVH's timeline prophecy about Jesus. The first 75% of the Bible explains the last 25%. It's NOT the other way around.

 

[Davy]

And that from a child thou hast known the holy Scriptures,.... And therefore must know that the doctrines he had learned were agreeable to them; and so is another reason why he should continue in them. The Jews very early learned their children the holy Scripture. Philo the Jew says (w), εκ πρωτης ηλικιας "from their very infancy"; a phrase pretty much the same with this here used. It is a maxim with the Jews (x), that when a child was five years of age, it was proper to teach him the Scriptures. Timothy's mother being a Jewess, trained him up early in the knowledge of these writings, with which he became very conversant, and under divine influence and assistance, arrived to a large understanding of them; and it is a practice that highly becomes Christian parents; it is one part of the nurture and admonition of the Lord they should bring up their children in: the wise man's advice in Pro_22:6 is very good.
J.

Learning by rote is not understanding in The Scriptures, so really can't use that argument either. Apostle Paul who was trained by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, shows this difference between learning by rote vs. understanding in God's Word. Now any child can understood the parts about, don't eat, don't touch, don't bow, etc. But that is not the real understanding which Paul was given by Christ, which allowed Paul by The Holy Spirit to see The Old Testament prophecies in a new light, based on The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Johann]

Learning by rote is not understanding in The Scriptures, so really can't use that argument either. Apostle Paul who was trained by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, shows this difference between learning by rote vs. understanding in God's Word. Now any child can understood the parts about, don't eat, don't touch, don't bow, etc. But that is not the real understanding which Paul was given by Christ, which allowed Paul by The Holy Spirit to see The Old Testament prophecies in a new light, based on The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

@Davy

...and here you are, not quoting scriptures..

 

[quietthinker]

I am dealing with someone who is unsure re his salvation, would you mind?
So far I do not see you doing anything constructive which begs the question...why are you here?
J.

Johann....I see the topics of the threads you post....I also see the volume of words you make. These all tell me a story.
Your answer here tells me you feel threatened by a simple question. I find that disturbing for someone who's cup is full......for someone who claims to know.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Robert, if you have read carefully, you would not have come up with..."Not quite yet..."

Your theology is incorrect.

Since the Bible states very clearly they can fall away, which makes it possible for them to have redemption, then I believe they are not yet sealed. But like I said Joe, that is just an opinion as I really do not know.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Salvation
is a PRESENT reality for the believer in Christ
J.

Ok, what is your understanding of Mat 24:13? I believe it teaches otherwise. What did the Apostle Paul mean when he said this sir?:
(1 Corinthians 9:27) . . .I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

 

[Johann]

Since the Bible states very clearly they can fall away, which makes it possible for them to have redemption, then I believe they are not yet sealed. But like I said Joe, that is just an opinion as I really do not know.

At least you are honest Robert
J.

 

[Robert Gwin]

At least you are honest Robert
J.

I meant to say impossible Joe, those called who fall away cannot be revived to repentance. I try to conduct myself honestly in all things, thanks for recognizing that Heb 13:18

 

[Johann]

Ok, what is your understanding of Mat 24:13? I believe it teaches otherwise. What did the Apostle Paul mean when he said this sir?:
(1 Corinthians 9:27) . . .I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance
   1. statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
   2. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)
   3. statements of Peter ( 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
2. texts on the need for perseverance
   1. statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
   2. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
   3. statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
   4. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
   5. statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)

Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus' death dealt with the fallen creation's sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961

The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all VERB TENSES:

• AORIST (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
• PERFECT perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
• PRESENT (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
• FUTUREfuture (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

Utley

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Salvation
is a PRESENT reality for the believer in Christ
J.

The patriarchs and prophets haven't gotten their salvation yet(Heb. 11:39) so it's pretty clear that salvation isn't a present reality for anybody.

Learning by rote is not understanding in The Scriptures, so really can't use that argument either. Apostle Paul who was trained by the best Hebrew scholar of his day, Gamaliel, shows this difference between learning by rote vs. understanding in God's Word. Now any child can understood the parts about, don't eat, don't touch, don't bow, etc. But that is not the real understanding which Paul was given by Christ, which allowed Paul by The Holy Spirit to see The Old Testament prophecies in a new light, based on The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The fact that God promoted Timothy to being a minister over the Ephesian congregation shortly before Paul's death automatically means he was well-versed in the scriptures, despite the fact that he didn't receive formal education under a scholar.

If Timothy's understanding didn't surpass those of the Orthodox Jews, God would not have put him in a position to be responsible for teaching other people, appointing leaders to serve under him, or protecting the congregation from false doctrines. God does not appoint uneducated men to positions of leadership in His Church.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


The issue of perseverance has been contentious throughout church history. The problem begins with apparently conflicting passages of the NT:

1. texts on assurance
   1. statements of Jesus (John 6:37; 10:28-29)
   2. statements of Paul (Rom. 8:35-39; Eph. 1:13; 2:5,8-9; Phil. 1:6; 2:13; 2 Thess. 3:3; 2 Tim. 1:12; 4:18)
   3. statements of Peter ( 1 Pet. 1:4-5)
2. texts on the need for perseverance
   1. statements of Jesus (Matt. 10:22; 13:1-9,24-30; 24:13; Mark 13:13; John 8:31; 15:4-10; Rev. 2:7,17,26; 3:5,12,21)
   2. statements of Paul (Rom. 11:22; 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 13:5; Gal. 1:6; 3:4; 5:4; 6:9; Phil. 2:12; 3:18-20; Col. 1:23; 2 Tim. 3:2)
   3. statements of the author of Hebrews (Heb. 2:1; 3:6,14; 4:14; 6:4-12; 10:26-27)
   4. statements of John (1 John 2:6; 2 John 9)
   5. statement of the Father (Rev. 21:7)

Biblical salvation issues from the love, mercy, and grace of a sovereign Triune God. No human can be saved without the initiation of the Spirit (cf. John 6:44,65). Deity comes first and sets the agenda, but demands that humans must respond in faith and repentance, both initially and continually. God works with mankind in a covenant relationship. There are privileges and responsibilities!

Salvation is offered to all humans (cf. John 1:12; 3:16; 4:42; 1 Tim. 2:4; Titus 2:11; 2 Pet. 3:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:14). Jesus' death dealt with the fallen creation's sin problem (cf. Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21). God has provided a way and wants all those made in His image to respond to His love and provision in Jesus.

If you would like to read more on this subject from a non-Calvinistic perspective, see

1. Dale Moody, The Word of Truth, Eerdmans, 1981 (pp. 348-365)
2. Howard Marshall, Kept by the Power of God, Bethany Fellowship, 1969
3. Robert Shank, Life in the Son, Westcott, 1961

The Bible is addressing two different problems in this area: (1) taking assurance as a license to live fruitless, selfish lives and (2) encouraging those who struggle with ministry and personal sin. The problem is that the wrong groups are taking the wrong message and building theological systems on limited biblical passages. Some Christians desperately need the message of assurance, while others need the stern warnings! Which group are you in?

There is a historical theological controversy involving Augustine versus Pelagius and Calvin versus Arminius (semi-Pelagian). The issue involves the question of salvation: if one is truly saved, must he persevere in faith and fruitfulness?

The Calvinists line up behind those biblical texts that assert God's sovereignty and keeping-power (John 10:27-30; Rom. 8:31-39; 1 John 5:13,18; 1 Pet. 1:3-5) and VERB TENSES like the perfect passive participles of Eph. 2:5,8.

The Arminians line up behind those biblical texts that warn believers to "hold on," "hold out," or "continue" (Matt. 10:22; 24:9-13; Mark 13:13; John 15:4-6; 1 Cor. 15:2; Gal. 6:9; Rev. 2:7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21; 21:7). I personally do not believe that Hebrews 6 and 10 are applicable, but many Arminians use them as a warning against apostasy. The parable of the Sower in Matthew 13 and Mark 4 addresses the issue of apparent belief, as does John 8:31-59. As Calvinists quote the PERFECT TENSE VERBS used to describe salvation, the Arminians quote the present tense passages like 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15.

This is a perfect example of how theological systems abuse the proof-texting method of interpretation. Usually a guiding principle or chief text is used to construct a theological grid by which all other texts are viewed. Be careful of grids from any source. They come from western logic, not revelation. The Bible is an eastern book. It presents truth in tension-filled, seemingly paradoxical pairs. Christians are meant to affirm both and live within the tension. The NT presents both the security of the believer and the demand for continuing faith and godliness. Christianity is an initial response of repentance and faith followed by a continuing response of repentance and faith. Salvation is not a product (a ticket to heaven or a fire insurance policy), but a relationship. It is a decision and discipleship. It is described in the NT in all VERB TENSES:

• AORIST (completed action), Acts 15:11; Rom. 8:24; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5
• PERFECT perfect (completed action with continuing results), Eph. 2:5,8
• PRESENT (continuing action), 1 Cor. 1:18; 15:2; 2 Cor. 2:15
• FUTUREfuture (future events or certain events), Rom. 5:8,10; 10:9; 1 Cor. 3:15; Phil. 1:28; 1 Thess. 5:8-9; Heb. 1:14; 9:28

Utley

You say a lot of words Joe, and well researched I might add, but in my case they fall on deaf ears. Likely I have mentioned to you, or at least you have seen me post sometime that I do not believe the Bible contradicts. The Scriptures I posted to you are very simple, easy to understand. The truth is they show beyond a reasonable doubt that a person is not saved currently.

I think the problem is that you really do not understand what the actual meaning of the word saved is, perhaps even that it is simply another term for salvation. So I am going to ask you at this point what do you perceive salvation is?

 

[Davy]

The fact that God promoted Timothy to being a minister over the Ephesian congregation shortly before Paul's death automatically means he was well-versed in the scriptures, despite the fact that he didn't receive formal education under a scholar.

That idea is meaningless, since 'understanding' in God's Word means a lot more than just studying letters. And the fact that you failed to grasp this contrast I pointed to with Paul, before Christ converted him vs. afterwards, reveals you STILL... don't understand the difference.

2 Cor 3:14-15
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
KJV

 

[Johann]

The first 75% of the Bible explains the last 25%. It's NOT the other way around.

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill?
The Bible is full of Messianic prophecies. Mathematician Peter Stoner counted the probability of one person fulfilling even a small number of them. And he concluded, the chance of a single man fulfilling “just” 48 of the prophecies found in the Tanakh (Old Testament) would be 1 in 10×157! In other words, that is 1 followed by 157 zeros! How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? Let’s find out.


Almost Seven Times that Many
What if He was Messiah prophesied? After all, Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) fulfilled not just the 48 specifically Messianic prophecies. In fact, He fulfilled more than 324 individual prophecies that related to the Messiah! The first calculation was amazing enough for me. So, the probability of one man fulfilling 324 prophecies must be a number beyond comprehension for anyone!

To the Jewish People, this is more than a matter of random interest. That is to say, the Messiah has been prophesied in Scripture with great specificity. Although sometimes these prophesies are hidden, allegorical or poetic. And it begins with Genesis 3:15.

Astonishing

Here is the source

How Many Prophecies Did Jesus Fulfill?

 

[Johann]

So I am going to ask you at this point what do you perceive salvation is?

I have already posting a reply to you on one of my posts Robert.

 

[Behold]

When YOU want to teach a Sunday School class ??? Do you?? ... and they ask you, "what does it mean to be sealed with the HS".

What you do, is explain what it means to be "In Christ"., as to be "in Christ" is HOW you have been sealed.

So, let me show you.

How do you get there?.. = "You must be born again". As to be born again, puts your SPIRIT.......not your body, and not your mind.....but your SPIRIT, into the Spirit of God, because you have been born again Spiritually, into the Holy Spirit of God, BY the Holy Spirit of God.

See that?
That is your Spirit, being birthed INTO God Himself, and God is A Spirit.. = The Holy Spirit.

When you read that the born again are "seated in heavenly places IN CHRIST"......this means "Spiritually" = by having been born again INTO the Spirit of God, by the Spirit of God.
This is why your NT teaches you that you, (if you are born again and not just water baptized), but actually born again, are now "IN CHRIST", and "Christ in you, the hope of Glory"..... "Glory" is Heaven, and Because Christ is in you, if you are born again, (and not just water dunked or water sprinkled falsely thinking you are born again)...but if you are TRULY born again spiritually, then you are IN God and IN Christ, SPIRITUALLY, which is to be SEALED by the Holy Spirit.

Also... Notice that you dont do that for yourself, and that is why you can't undo it by your bad behavior or your lack of faith or by any other self effort.

 

[Johann]

(and not just water dunked or water sprinkled falsely thinking you are born again)

Lol!

 

[Happy Trails]

How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill?
The Bible is full of Messianic prophecies. Mathematician Peter Stoner counted the probability of one person fulfilling even a small number of them. And he concluded, the chance of a single man fulfilling “just” 48 of the prophecies found in the Tanakh (Old Testament) would be 1 in 10×157! In other words, that is 1 followed by 157 zeros! How many prophecies did Jesus fulfill? Let’s find out.


Almost Seven Times that Many
What if He was Messiah prophesied? After all, Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew) fulfilled not just the 48 specifically Messianic prophecies. In fact, He fulfilled more than 324 individual prophecies that related to the Messiah! The first calculation was amazing enough for me. So, the probability of one man fulfilling 324 prophecies must be a number beyond comprehension for anyone!

To the Jewish People, this is more than a matter of random interest. That is to say, the Messiah has been prophesied in Scripture with great specificity. Although sometimes these prophesies are hidden, allegorical or poetic. And it begins with Genesis 3:15.

Astonishing

Here is the source

How Many Prophecies Did Jesus Fulfill?

Yes. What Jesus fulfilled is ALL from the OT.

NONE of it is from paganism.

So, Christianity embracing pagan rituals and holidays makes absolutely no sense.

 

[Johann]

Utley

Guess we can learn something from ol' Utley

 

[Johann]

So, Christianity embracing pagan rituals and holidays makes absolutely no sense.

You will be surprised to know that there are over 45,000 denominations Happy Trails, guess they preach the good news in so many heteros ways.
Only a "few" will be saved.

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Guess there is the naming of Christ, but no departing from iniquity.
Bless you
J.