Lambano
Well-Known Member
It is possible that Hades performs a Purgatorial function. I cannot say so with confidence, though.
Let's discuss..cessation after death?
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I've been to two churches in life, the Mormons and the Catholics. And I'm learning about other churches here. But so far a type of purgatory has always been taught at the churches I have attended. And from what I read in scriptures it appears correct.
The Disciple John
Active Member
This is what I read in those verses too.
God alone, and now Christ, and those who reign with him. True. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
Yes. God is good.
Satan would have us believe otherwise - believing the lie that God created a place to torment souls for all eternity.
Yes. Satan paints God as all manner of sadistic evil, and people promote that teaching... helping Satan turn people away from God.
The Disciple John
Active Member
That's saving you time, but what about me?
I want to be sure that my time is saved too.
I posted scriptures, and you have not said anything about them. I thought this was a scriptural discussion. I don't suspect you have changed your mind.
So let's discuss those scriptures I posted, then we can discuss your link.
What scriptures and comments do you disagree with, from my posts?
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
The immortal soul teaching was literally the first recorded lie Satan tells in the Bible:
Just from that statement alone, we can easily deduce that the Bible does NOT support the idea that a place of eternal torment exists, because that would mean a person will never truly die.
The real point of this parable was to emphasize the importance of heeding the OT's authority:
Verse 14 shows that Jesus gave this parable as a direct response to greedy Pharisees who were scoffing after He said a person can't worship material things and God(verses 9-13). The point Jesus really wanted to drive home with this parable was that the Pharisees showed through their conduct that their religion wasn't the least bit faithful to the OT writings.
In no way, shape, or form was Jesus depicting the afterlife because Hebrews 11 says Abraham hasn't even received immortality yet.
Just from that statement alone, we can easily deduce that the Bible does NOT support the idea that a place of eternal torment exists, because that would mean a person will never truly die.
The real point of this parable was to emphasize the importance of heeding the OT's authority:
Verse 14 shows that Jesus gave this parable as a direct response to greedy Pharisees who were scoffing after He said a person can't worship material things and God(verses 9-13). The point Jesus really wanted to drive home with this parable was that the Pharisees showed through their conduct that their religion wasn't the least bit faithful to the OT writings.
In no way, shape, or form was Jesus depicting the afterlife because Hebrews 11 says Abraham hasn't even received immortality yet.
Don’t listen to the lies on Hell. Here are a few lies and below I have given verses to support they are lies. There is no purgatory like Catholics like to teach. Some people teach that everyone is going to Heaven which is false as well. Some people teach annihilationism, poof and you’re gone, which is a lie.
24. Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment.
25. John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
26. John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Saying, “hell is not real” is calling God a liar.
Talking about Hell doesn’t bring in the money. Many people are taking away from God’s Word and there is a stiff penalty for taking away from God’s Word. Because of these false teachers I have heard people say, “well I don’t need to spend eternity in Heaven.” Satan is working through these false teachers. If you read this whole article there is no way that you will think that Hell is not real.
27. Revelation 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
28. Romans 16:17-18 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.
The saddest part of all of this is that most people are going to hell.
Most church goers are going to hell. Over 90% of people are going to be burning in Hell. Most people hate God and most people want to keep their sins. Many people who have read this article from start to finish will one day spend eternity in Hell. Have you forgotten that the way is narrow?
29. Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!”
30. Matthew 7:13-14″Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
Who’s going to hell according to the Bible?
“The cowardly, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and sexually immoral persons, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).
Maybe you’re looking at that list and thinking, “Oh no! I’ve lied!” or “I’ve had sex outside of marriage.” The good news is that Jesus paid for all our sins through His death on the cross. “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9).
The primary item on that list above that will send you to hell is unbelief. If you fail to receive God’s wonderful gift of salvation through believing in Jesus, you will burn in eternal torment in the lake of fire.
How to escape hell?
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
We have all sinned and deserve the punishment of hell. But God loves us so deeply that He gave His only Son Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus took our punishment for sin on His own body, so that if we believe in Him, we will not spend eternity in the lake of fire, but instead in heaven with Him.
“Through His name, everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sin” (Acts 10:43). Repent – turn away from your sin and toward God – and acknowledge that Jesus died and rose again for your sins. Receive a restored relationship with God!
30 Scary Bible Verses About Hell (The Eternal Lake Of Fire)
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Can a soul be destroyed?
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)
I have to conclude that Gehenna is not Hades. I would associate it more with Revelation's "Lake of Fire".
The verse says God can destroy a soul. For a God who has demonstrated He can whip up a whole universe ex nihilo, the merciful destruction of a damned soul is child's play.
And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. (Matthew 10:28)
I have to conclude that Gehenna is not Hades. I would associate it more with Revelation's "Lake of Fire".
The verse says God can destroy a soul. For a God who has demonstrated He can whip up a whole universe ex nihilo, the merciful destruction of a damned soul is child's play.
The Disciple John
Active Member
Get out of prison?
only by paying the last penny? Is that where those crooked priest got their purgatory?
According to the following verses all of them should by now be walking about with no eyes in their head, and no arms.
Matthew 5
27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Do you see what I mean?
These translations are so messed up.
Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
So purgatory is hell according to those priests?
The Disciple John
Active Member
Seems we are having the same thoughts.
Yes. Gehenna is not Hades. Yet almost all translations render those words Hell. Gehenna is final destruction - the Lake of Fire.
Man. Apostate Christianity has really nose dived.
The Disciple John
Active Member
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
What's happening here?
ScottA
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Indeed. Life everlasting only comes with being born of the spirit of God (whom is forever), and the unsaved are not ever born of the spirit of God--they are not forever.
The Disciple John
Active Member
Since the Hebrew word Sheol, and Greek word Hades, is understood in the light of scripture, and not philosophies...
What does the Bible say about them?
All people - whether good or bad, go to Sheol/Hades (rendered hell in some translations)
Genesis 37:35; Genesis 42:38; Numbers 16:30-33; 2 Samuel 22:5-7; 1 Kings 2:6; Job 14:13-14; Jonah 2:1-2
Sheol/Hades (rendered hell in some translations) is cast into the Lake of Fire, after being emptied, and the Lake of Fire is the second death, so Hell does not last forever, but is subjected to a death state - gone for good.
Righteous men in Sheol/Hades (rendered hell in some translations)
Sheol
Jacob - a righteous man
Genesis 37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters arose to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted, and he said, “For I shall go down into the grave [Sheol] to my son in mourning.” Thus his father wept for him.
Genesis 42:38 But he said, “My son shall not go down with you, for his brother is dead, and he is left alone. If any calamity should befall him along the way in which you go, then you would bring down my gray hair with sorrow to the grave [Sheol].”
Where did Jacob expect to go at death - Sheol.
It's rendered grave in most translation, including... KJV.
Samuel - a righteous man
2 Samuel 22:5-7
“When the waves of death surrounded me, The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
In my distress I called upon the Lord, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears.
Samuel is confronted with death at the hands of wicked men. What would then hold him - Sheol.
Both individuals used expressed sorrow in going there. Isn't that what is associated with dying; death? After all, who want to die be covered with earth?
David's prayer about someone.
1 Kings 2:6 Therefore do according to your wisdom, and do not let his gray hair go down to the grave [Sheol] in peace.
Job - a righteous man
Job 14:13-14
“Oh, that You would hide me in the grave [Sheol], That You would conceal me until Your wrath is past, That You would appoint me a set time, and remember me!
If a man dies, shall he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait, Till my change comes.
This speaks for itself.
Job wants to be remembered by God, when he dies. Why? Easy. Who doesn't want to live forever? Job did, and he had faith in the resurrection.
In fact, though Job, like countless individuals who died, did not know how it would take place, he knew that it was God's will to restore the dead to life.
How would God do that if he did not remember those that died.
This is why I really like the expression used at John 5:28 - Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the [μνημεῖον memorial [tombs]] will hear His voice... and come out (verse 29)
God remembers those who died! They are in his memory. So that Jesus tells us, they are in memorial tombs... and God will restore them to life! Isn't that wonderful!
There are many more scriptures where Sheol is used, in the "OT", alluding to the grave of mankind. Any place can become our grave (Sheol). Even the belly of a big fish.
Jonah 2:1-2
Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish’s belly. And he said:
“I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
“Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.
That's according to the New King James Version.
How does the KJV render the verses?
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Why does the KJV use hell, whereas the vast majority of translation... including the New King James Version, don't.
Is it not interesting also, that Jonah was in the fish's belly, as he did not die, and go to some underworld of the dead, but understood that the fish's belly would become his grave... if God did not answer him, and forgive him.
Hades
Where is David? Acts 2:25-35 Was David not a righteous man, remembered by God?
Both David and Christ went the same place - Hades (Hell - KJV).
Lake of Fire
Everything that is to be done away with, goes in the lake of fire - gone.
That's last for the Devil; the beast; the false prophet; death; man's burial place (grave - Sheol/Hades); whosoever was not found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:10-15)
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Lake of Fire
Everything that is to be done away with, goes in the lake of fire - gone.
That's last for the Devil; the beast; the false prophet; death; man's burial place (grave - Sheol/Hades); whosoever was not found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:10-15)[/QUOTE]
then what about verses like these?
Daniel 12:2 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jeremiah 23:40 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Matthew 25:41 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
If you say "poof" (reverently speaking) they are gone...why then are those who don't know God and obey not the gospel punished with EVERLASTING destruction?
It doesn't make sense my brother...
Isaiah 33:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
John 3:36 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
^^
See here? Think in reverse, antithesis...
And here.....
Matthew 18:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Everlasting
@The Disciple John...I really cannot see everlasting cessation or annihilation if it is "gone" in a moment when a person dies my brother.
Everything that is to be done away with, goes in the lake of fire - gone.
That's last for the Devil; the beast; the false prophet; death; man's burial place (grave - Sheol/Hades); whosoever was not found written in the book of life (Revelation 20:10-15)[/QUOTE]
then what about verses like these?
Daniel 12:2 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Jeremiah 23:40 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Matthew 25:41 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
2 Thessalonians 1:9 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
If you say "poof" (reverently speaking) they are gone...why then are those who don't know God and obey not the gospel punished with EVERLASTING destruction?
It doesn't make sense my brother...
Isaiah 33:14 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?
John 3:36 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
^^
See here? Think in reverse, antithesis...
And here.....
Matthew 18:8 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
King James Bible Dictionary - Reference List - Everlasting
@The Disciple John...I really cannot see everlasting cessation or annihilation if it is "gone" in a moment when a person dies my brother.
The Disciple John
Active Member
They all harmonize.
Yes, resurrection.
They harmonize with John 5:28; Revelation 20:12-13
The "hour" signifies a brief period of time when both the righteous and unrighteous Acts 24:15 are resurrected.
The judgment is 1,000 years - a day of judgment.
Those not found written in the book of life, during that judgment, are destroyed forever - everlasting contempt.
Those found written in the book of life - everlasting life.
What is being missed by those in the branches stemming from Apostate Christianity, is the fact that people do not go to heaven to be judged. Nor are there in a long line on the earth waiting for Jesus to call their name, to step forward and answer questions.
If we understand that the resurrection allows persons to get a fair chance to live by God's laws, without the interference of evil... Hence why Satan is bound for the thousand years - so that he is not able to mislead, then it becomes easy for us to understand that the books that are opened, are the books containing God's new instructions, for those who would now be living for a thousand years on a new earth, without the wicked around.
So they receive a resurrection that will have two different outcomes, based on their response to what's written in those books.
Those who listen and obey, their resurrection is a resurrection to life - everlasting life.
Those who fail to listen and obey, their resurrection is a resurrection of judgment - everlasting destruction.
I'll take these one at a time.
This reminds me of Matthew 7:21-23, and Luke 13:22-31
22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.
31 The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee.
What door will the people be knocking on?
Will they stand outside weeping and gnashing their teeth?
Jesus is using parables. So when he speak illustrations like the one in Matthew 25 of the sheep and goats, he is using symbolic terms.
It flew over the heads of those listening.
As he said... Matthew 13
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
If we are not able to recognize Jesus parables, and not take his every word literally, we will not be able to get the sense of what he is saying.
So let me ask you Johann, What door will the people be knocking on (Luke 13:25)?
The Disciple John
Active Member
GEN2REV
Well-Known Member
These are your comments.
Did you notice the word destruction? How does destruction mean eternal life?
Does death mean eternal life?
Just curious what your take on these are - without all the childish personal nonsense.
What if we have already been there?
Is not hell a place of death and dead people?
Is not purgatory a place of purging? Consider this:
"But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work." II Tim 2:20-21
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