Run AWAY from Calvinism!

[Lambano]

32 pages of comments and im lost on what the topic is anymore.

Wait 'til you see what @stunnedbygrace can do when she decides to REALLY hijack a thread!

 

[Johann]

If by the invitation you mean escape from Hell yes, but I don't think that is what the invitation is.

Man cannot be redeemed by any human
payment or device (Ps. 49:7-9).
God works all things afer the counsel of His own will
(Eph. 1:11; Ps. 135:6; Isa. 46:10-11; Da. 4:35)
God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who
gave himself a ransom for all, to be testifed in due time (1 Ti.
2:4-6).
God is not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance (2 Pe. 3:9).
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life (Joh. 3:16).
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 Jo. 2:1).
Salvation is a gift of God’s grace, not of works, lest any man
should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no works that a man can
do to save himself.
Salvation is 100% by God’s grace through Christ’s
atonement and 0% by man’s work (Ro. 11:6; 2 Ti. 1:9; 1 Pe.
1:18-21).
Salvation is through faith (Ro. 3:25, 30, 31; Ga. 3:8, 14; Eph.
2:8; 3:15; Heb. 6:12).
Faith is not works. The Bible contrasts faith with works
(Ro. 9:32; Ga. 2:16; 3:2). By the law of works there is boasting,
but not by the law of faith. “Where is boasting then? It is
excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith”
(Ro. 3:27). Faith is like the hand that receives God’s gif of
salvation. Receiving a gift is not a work and is nothing to
boast of. All glory goes to the giver.
God does the work of drawing sinners to salvation. Sinners
don’t seek God on their own; they can’t convict or enlighten
or repent themselves. They can’t bring themselves out of

darkness into light. They can’t regenerate themselves. Christ
said He would draw all men to Himself. “And I, if I be lifted
up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (Joh. 12:32).
The Spirit of God empowers the gospel preachers (Ac. 1:8),
convicts (Joh. 16:7-11) and enlightens (Heb. 6:4) the sinner.
When the sinner responds to God’s drawing work and
agrees with the Spirit’s conviction and trusts Christ and calls
upon Him and receives Him, as God commands him to do,
God does the work of salvation. That man is redeemed (Eph.
1:7), forgiven (Eph. 1:7), regenerated (Tit. 3:5), raised from
the dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1), translated into Christ’s
kingdom (Col. 1:13).
As many as receive Christ by believing on his name are
given power to become the sons of God, which were born,
not of blood, nor of the will of the fesh, nor of the will of
man, but of God (Joh. 1:12-13). Since this passage says men
can receive Christ by believing, it is obvious that believing on
Christ savingly is not “the will of man.” The sinner cannot be
born again by his will, but he can receive Christ and it is
Christ who regenerates and saves him.

Just thought I'd share the good news, and not bad news.
J.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Man cannot be redeemed by any human
payment or device (Ps. 49:7-9).
God works all things afer the counsel of His own will
(Eph. 1:11; Ps. 135:6; Isa. 46:10-11; Da. 4:35)
God will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the
knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one
mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who
gave himself a ransom for all, to be testifed in due time (1 Ti.
2:4-6).
God is not willing that any should perish but that all
should come to repentance (2 Pe. 3:9).
God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
everlasting life (Joh. 3:16).
Jesus Christ is the propitiation for our sins: and not for
ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world (1 Jo. 2:1).
Salvation is a gift of God’s grace, not of works, lest any man
should boast (Eph. 2:8-9). There are no works that a man can
do to save himself.
Salvation is 100% by God’s grace through Christ’s
atonement and 0% by man’s work (Ro. 11:6; 2 Ti. 1:9; 1 Pe.
1:18-21).
Salvation is through faith (Ro. 3:25, 30, 31; Ga. 3:8, 14; Eph.
2:8; 3:15; Heb. 6:12).
Faith is not works. The Bible contrasts faith with works
(Ro. 9:32; Ga. 2:16; 3:2). By the law of works there is boasting,
but not by the law of faith. “Where is boasting then? It is
excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith”
(Ro. 3:27). Faith is like the hand that receives God’s gif of
salvation. Receiving a gift is not a work and is nothing to
boast of. All glory goes to the giver.
God does the work of drawing sinners to salvation. Sinners
don’t seek God on their own; they can’t convict or enlighten
or repent themselves. They can’t bring themselves out of

darkness into light. They can’t regenerate themselves. Christ
said He would draw all men to Himself. “And I, if I be lifted
up from the earth, will draw all men unto me” (Joh. 12:32).
The Spirit of God empowers the gospel preachers (Ac. 1:8),
convicts (Joh. 16:7-11) and enlightens (Heb. 6:4) the sinner.
When the sinner responds to God’s drawing work and
agrees with the Spirit’s conviction and trusts Christ and calls
upon Him and receives Him, as God commands him to do,
God does the work of salvation. That man is redeemed (Eph.
1:7), forgiven (Eph. 1:7), regenerated (Tit. 3:5), raised from
the dead spiritually (Eph. 2:1), translated into Christ’s
kingdom (Col. 1:13).
As many as receive Christ by believing on his name are
given power to become the sons of God, which were born,
not of blood, nor of the will of the fesh, nor of the will of
man, but of God (Joh. 1:12-13). Since this passage says men
can receive Christ by believing, it is obvious that believing on
Christ savingly is not “the will of man.” The sinner cannot be
born again by his will, but he can receive Christ and it is
Christ who regenerates and saves him.

Just thought I'd share the good news, and not bad news.
J.

So you’re a universalist now?? Everyone will be saved???

 

[Johann]

So you’re a universalist now?? Everyone will be saved???

How do you read the Scriptures posted here?
It is not what I say but what does the Scriptures say, Perfect Tense. No?
J.

 

[Johann]

How do you read the Scriptures posted here?
It is not what I say but what does the Scriptures say, Perfect Tense. No?
J.

The problem here is that we are fallible and God is not a liar brother.
It is not what Calvin says, you say, I say...but what is the Scriptures saying...
We might think we have it altogether but God is not mocked, He is holy and a just Father.
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

What is denying the ego eimi?
What does it mean to take up your cross?
What does it mean to follow the Master, Christ Jesus, our Lord?
J.

I don’t know what “eimi” means. I do have a concept of ego as…the me. My reputation, my wants, my angers and impatience’s, my “rights” - basically, my will. I think you are using ego rather than the word self and I think they are interchangeable so that’s fine. I even think most men might understand ego better than self.

In a very real sense, combined with trust, denying self/ego/our will is accepting whatever circumstance you find yourself in as Something God either wills or permits. A verse says He guides our steps. And Job shows us satan has to ask permission to sift us like wheat. Ranting and fuming over a flat tire or even so much as a stubbed toe then becomes my own will complaining over Gods will. One old saint said, to know Gods will it is only necessary to look at your circumstances.

To take up your cross means to keep trusting that God is doing what is very best for you to conform you to Your Lord. Whatever hard thing befalls you, whatever difficult person He puts in your path, whatever suffering He apportions to you, you trust that He is doing or allowing what will be good for you to grow and conform you. So to take up your cross is to deny your own will and begin to trust and want whatever He sees fit to bring or allow.

Thatis what it means to follow Jesus, who, as the verse says, learned the obedience of trust by the things He suffered.

The obedience of trust is what we are learning. All good comes to us through trust. Miracles are wrought through trust. All we desire and thirst for comes to us through trust.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yeah, what the hell happened here? We leave you guys unsupervised for an afternoon and we come back and the tables are all overturned, the windows are busted, and there's blood all over the place!

We’re grappling with very hard things here. The windows can be replaced! :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So you’re a universalist now?? Everyone will be saved???

If he errs, at least he errs on the side of hope in Gods mercy for every man. I do not think God will tell him, your mistake was that you hoped too much in my mercy!

 

[Johann]

I don’t know what “eimi” means. I do have a concept of ego as…the me. My reputation, my wants, my angers and impatience’s, my “rights” - basically, my will. I think you are using ego rather than the word self and I think they are interchangeable so that’s fine. I even think most men might understand ego better than self.

In a very real sense, combined with trust, denying self/ego/our will is accepting whatever circumstance you find yourself in as Something God either wills or permits. A verse says He guides our steps. And Job shows us satan has to ask permission to sift us like wheat. Ranting and fuming over a flat tire or even so much as a stubbed toe then becomes my own will complaining over Gods will. One old saint said, to know Gods will it is only necessary to look at your circumstances.

To take up your cross means to keep trusting that God is doing what is very best for you to conform you to Your Lord. Whatever hard thing befalls you, whatever difficult person He puts in your path, whatever suffering He apportions to you, you trust that He is doing or allowing what will be good for you to grow and conform you. So to take up your cross is to deny your own will and begin to trust and want whatever He sees fit to bring or allow.

Thatis what it means to follow Jesus, who, as the verse says, learned the obedience of trust by the things He suffered.

The obedience of trust is what we are learning. All good comes to us through trust. Miracles are wrought through trust. All we desire and thirst for comes to us through trust.

Excellent stunnedbygrace.
J.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Excellent stunnedbygrace.
J.

His ways ARE excellent! It’s hard though. It’s a stupendous struggle. Any man who hasn’t struggled to give up his will and his life or who says there is no struggle has not picked up his cross or put his hand to the plow and refused to turn back. There is nothing stronger in a man than his own will and a man is not fit for Gods use until his own will has been laid down.

I watched a terrible and fearsome row between a parent and a four year old the other day in which the child’s will was to only eat his desert but not to eat his meat and potatoes and his fathers will was that he eat his meat. The entire household was in an awful uproar because of the will of the child. In my head, I said, ah…the human parent/child relationship and the battle of wills…I see Gods glory in it…as broken and marred as we are, there are still glimpses of His glory in all He has made.

 

[Lambano]

Just thought I'd share the good news, and not bad news.

Johann, you do well. :)

Three weeks ago, would you have defended the other position with such exuberance? I suspect you could have and would have done so with equal skill. Would you have done so with equal joy?

Johann, have you found what you were looking for?

 

[Johann]

His ways ARE excellent! It’s hard though. It’s a stupendous struggle. Any man who hasn’t struggled to give up his will and his life or who says there is no struggle has not picked up his cross or put his hand to the plow and refused to turn back. There is nothing stronger in a man than his own will and a man is not fit for Gods use until his own will has been laid down.

I watched a terrible and fearsome row between a parent and a four year old the other day in which the child’s will was to only eat his desert but not to eat his meat and potatoes and his fathers will was that he eat his meat. The entire household was in an awful uproar because of the will of the child. In my head, I said, ah…the human parent/child relationship and the battle of wills…I see Gods glory in it…as broken and marred as we are, there are still glimpses of His glory in all He has made.

I find that to be true, broken pots spills much water.
Really sorry for coming down hard on you.
You guys and gals are my family and I love you all..
J.

 

[Johann]

Johann, you do well. :)

Three weeks ago, would you have defended the other position with such exuberance? I suspect you could have and would have done so with equal skill. Would you have done so with equal joy?

Johann, have you found what you were looking for?

Brother, I don't have any skills and I don't know what joy is..
Johann.

 

[reformed1689]

Yes, it does, but not maybe in the way you hoped. It shows me your lack of confidence in asserting your position.

Why won't you just come out and say it?

"God invites all, but doesn't really extend the invitation to all, because salvation is not truly as we accept His invitation, it's got nothing really to do with His invitation, that's just a trigger device to initiate salvation in those whom God has already chosen, and really has nothing to do with who in fact will be saved." That would be an honest answer.

Much love!

Why do I not come out and say that? Because that is a strawman argument and not what I believe.

I believe the following.

1. Man, in his sin, will never choose God. He doesn't want God. He does not desire God.
2. God promises all that will believe, all that will choose Him, he will save. The problem is that is nobody. That is not a false promise, it is a genuine promise. A sincere promise, but there are realities to that promise that man doesn't want it.
3. Because nobody wants this, God has decided to show his love and mercy to change the hearts of some to save. The rest he is content to leave in THEIR OWN DECISION to stay in their sin. They are condemned already.
4. Christ paid for the sins of those who would believe in Him.

That is what I believe because that is what Scripture states.

 

[reformed1689]

And why would that be?

Much love!

Because they are in bondage to their sin. They do not want to come. They do not want God.

 

[Lambano]

So you’re a universalist now?? Everyone will be saved???

Scripture says God desires (θέλω) all to be saved. Including addicts who don't trust Him and who can't come clean.

Does a sovereign God sovereignly allow Man to defy His desires? If so, why?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Brother, I don't have any skills and I don't know what joy is..
Johann.

11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.

I admit I was a very joyless person a short time after I turned to God. My initial happiness and exuberance disappeared for a long time. I felt He was very hard on me and merciless. I felt I should not talk about Him to others or they would run away in horror at my coming to Him and then losing everything I had, my business, my husband, my home. I could not find a job no matter how hard I tried. Even The Dollar Store would not hire me. I didn’t know or see the good He was doing for me and the blessing and peace that would come if I just kept holding onto trust. One day I said to Him, Paul said a man should not be fed if he won’t work. Where is the work You will give me to do with my hands? A few days later someone came to me and asked me to help them with something. Every time I give up trying to muster through in my own strength and just ask Him for what I need, it ends well. Every time I stubbornly try to force things to happen, it ends poorly.

 

[reformed1689]

Scripture says God desires (θέλω) all to be saved. Including addicts who don't trust Him and who can't come clean.

Does a sovereign God sovereignly allow Man to defy His desires? If so, why?

Reference?

 

[Johann]

11 No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.

I admit I was a very joyless person a short time after I turned to God. My initial happiness and exuberance disappeared for a long time. I felt He was very hard on me and merciless. I felt I should not talk about Him to others or they would run away in horror at my coming to Him and then losing everything I had, my business, my husband, my home. I could not find a job no matter how hard I tried. Even The Dollar Store would not hire me. I didn’t know or see the good He was doing for me and the blessing and peace that would come if I just kept holding onto trust. One day I said to Him, Paul said a man should not be fed if he won’t work. Where is the work You will give me to do with my hands? A few days later someone came to me and asked me to help them with something. Every time I give up trying to muster through in my own strength and ask Him for what I need, it ends well. Every time I stubbornly try to force things to happen, it ends poorly.

I appreciate the input/testimony girl, I really do..you still don't know me (said this in love)
J.

 

[Lambano]

Reference?

I look around with my mark-1 eyeballs and ask, "Are God's desires currently being done on Earth as it is in Heaven?"

(Everyone here ought to recognize that scriptural allusion!)

 

[Johann]

I look around with my mark-1 eyeballs and ask, "Are God's desires currently being done on Earth as it is in Heaven?"

I love your signature Lambano..and also, come all to Me who are weary and heavy laden..the Greek says it powerfully.
J.