Rich R, you eliminated from the quotation in your reply a critical point, that is, according to your assertion of your prior post to me specifically of "But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense" you've asserted that the Apostle Paul is a Greek Gnostic since Paul wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).
You mentioned my use of the word "with" instead of "in." So why do you mention "the person of the Father" and "the person of the Word?" Those phrases aren't in the scriptures anymore than "they be one WITH us."
Scripture contains reference to the Father with the word "You" such as John 17:21-23, so we have a personification reference for the Father based on scripture; therefore, "the person of the Father" is a scriptural phrase.
Scripture contains reference to Jesus with the word "Me" such as John 17:21-23 as well as Jesus ("the Word", John 1:1, John 1:14) with the word "Him" such as John 1:3, so we have a personification reference for Jesus based on scripture; therefore, "the person of the Word" is a scriptural phrase.
While astute enough to spot my error of changing "in" to "with," you don't seem as keen in noticing your own writings. What's with all this "...about the Father along with the person of the word...?" Here's the actual scripture:
John 17:21-23,
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Lord Jesus says "We are One" (John 17:22), and Jesus uses the word "We" such that "We" includes the person of the Father along with the person of the Word, yet the people of God are not included in the word "We".
Thus, the "We" indicates the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) which is gloriously the person of the Father along with the person of the Word.
I see that we are one "in" God and Jesus. But that's all. Nothing there like, "about the Father..." But it does say in no uncertain terms that Jesus was praying that you and I, along with all other born again folks, are one. Exactly the same words used when Jesus said he and the Father are one. If Jesus was saying he was God, then you must be me...or is it that I must be you...or must we be something even weirder?
Rich R, as God had me point out to you in the post to which you replied, you apply your temporal thoughts against Jesus instead of Holy Spirit founded belief/faith.
Paul calls such thoughts "the natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 quoted above.
Paul says born of God believers have "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16) which means we believers are one body of Christ thus in harmonious agreement; on the other hand, you deny being one body of Christ, so you are in diametric opposition with the Word of God.
We as a society have all agreed what it means to be "one" with something and it doesn't mean it actually IS that something.
Your claim about "society" must be tested.
An example for the test, one full apple pie in a pie tin sliced into 3 equal size pieces remains to be one pie for sale in a baked goods display cabinet.
The three pieces of pie are the one pie.
One piece of the pie is pie.
I'm changing your words such that the words "something" and "it" translate to the word "pie" within your words from your above quoted writing to test your spirit's veracity:
We as a society have all agreed what pie means to be "one" with pie and pie doesn't mean pie actually IS that pie.
Rich R, your statement is false because pie does mean pie actually IS that pie; therefore, your claim about society is deception.
The word "one" means one, yet the degree of the focal point may vary; in other words, the layer of abstraction can change for a given person, place, or thing.
Thus concludes the example of the word "one" that establishes a point of reference for the words of Jesus recorded in John 10:30 and John 17:21-23.
Now presenting another example by expanding the previous example to apply to John 1:1 through the next paragraph's dialog between a mom and her son.
The mommy asked "did you eat pie before dinner?", and Josiah answered "I ate one slice of pie at Levi's house."
Notice, the mommy used the noun "pie" without an article, not a definite article (the) nor an indefinite article (a or an).
The mom refers to the one actual pie including the three individual pieces, and the language frame is similar to John's use of the word "God" in anathrous within John 1:1.
The Apostle John refers to the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) including the person of the Word with his words of "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
The second occurrence of the word "God" in John 1:1 is undeniably and truthfully the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).
Analogies can have a point of failure, but the above firmly proves the point in Truth (John 14:6).
We know full well that it means two or more people are united in goals, purpose, action, etc.
Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in unity" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.
Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in goals" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.
Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in purpose" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.
Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in action" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.
Truthfully, Jesus includes unity, goals, purpose, action, etc in His use of "One" in "We are One" in John 17:22.
The etcetera in the enumeration includes the Truth (John 14:6) that the person of the Father along with the person of the Word are the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) when Emmanuel says "We are One" in John 17:22.
We take it like that as far as all believers being one (John 17:21-22).
Believers are one in a Way (John 14:6) that you deny - you misunderstand because you hold tightly to the temporal instead of the Spiritual (2 Corinthians 4:18). See the explanation in
post #1213 and
post #1225 to which you replied.
What makes John 17:11 any different? After all Jesus said on more than one occasion that he only did what God wanted him to do. God said it...Jesus did it and he did it perfectly, crossed every jot and tittle. That fits with the normal way we take that phrase and we don't have to explain away:
Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.
Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.
Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.
Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).
We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.
We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.
continued to
post #1270