A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[David in NJ]

Part B of answers to Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170:

The second point asked for in the beginning above:

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

Using Concordances for the KJV (Strong's and Young's Concordances) and the NASB (New American Standard Concordance of the Bible, Lockman Foundation 1981) I have found absolutely no scriptures which use the word "three" in describing God. But notice how important the use of the word 'three' is in the very definition of the trinity concept (see definition of 'trinity' at the beginning of this study.).

Isn't the word "three" at least as important as the word "one' (which is used for God in scripture) for the knowledge of the God whom we must worship in truth (Jn 4:24) - -that is, if the trinity doctrine were actually true?

Not only is the word "three" never used in conjunction with God anywhere in the Holy Scriptures (which simply could not be if God were really a "trinity"!), but it isn’t even as scripturally important as many other numbers ("one," "seven," "twelve," for example)!

There are "very few traces of ‘three’ in the cultus and the religious conceptions of the Israelites .... This relative rarity of a connexion between ‘three’ and religious notions, which prevails in the OT, should not be [supplied] from other sources. The thunder call, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jahweh (the?) one’ (Dt 6:4, cf. Is 41:4 44:6 48:12 ), drowns the voice of those who refer us to the triads of gods that were adored by the Babylonians, Assyrians, (Anu, Bel, and Ea, etc. ...), and other nations of antiquity. .... But the original meaning of the OT text must not be modified to suit either heathen parallels or later stages in its own development." - pp. 565, 566, Vol. 3, A Dictionary of the Bible, Hastings (trinitarian), ed., Hendrickson Publ. (trinitarian), 1988 printing.

"Although three has widely been thought a sacred number [by trinitarians, of course], specifically religious uses of it in the Bible seem to be relatively few." - p. 687, Vol. 2, The New International Dictionary of the New Testament (trinitarian), Zondervan Publ. (trinitarian), 1986.

If there were even hints of a trinity to be found in Scripture, the one word we would regularly see with religious significance would be "three." The fact that it is relatively insignificant throughout Scripture is enough in itself to refute any idea of a trinity!

Your question (B) is the Foundation of Who Elohim IS, beginning in Genesis.

Genesis 1:1-3
n the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the face of the waters.
3Then Elohim said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

Gospel of John chapter 1 confirms the THREE of Genesis 1:1-3

Genesis 1:26 here the THREE are again spoken of.
Then Elohim said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" 3x

Finally Genesis and Exodus gives us a CLEAR and PERFECT Picture of Elohim is THREE = Abraham Isaac Jacob in Genesis is the FULL GOSPEL

Remove any One and you have no Gospel and cannot be Saved.

Exodus 3:15
And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Lord Elohim of your fathers, the Elohe of Abraham Elohe of Isaac Elohe Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations

 

[keithr]

without THREE you cannot SEE............remove any One and you have no GOSPEL

You're still not listening to what Jesus said!

John 17:3 (WEB):

(3) This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.​

Our Father (and Jesus' Father) is the only true God. Clear and simple. Believe Jesus!

John 8:43-47 (WEB):

(43) Why don’t you understand my speech? Because you can’t hear my word.
(44) You are of your father, the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and doesn’t stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks on his own; for he is a liar, and the father of lies.
(45) But because I tell the truth, you don’t believe me.
(46) Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me?
(47) He who is of God hears the words of God. For this cause you don’t hear, because you are not of God.”​

 

[Keiw]

Where does the LORD Jesus ever call His Father, YHWH?

JESUS always refers/prays to His FATHER and never to YHWH.

John 17:6, told his followers his Fathers name= YHWH. John 17:26--promises to keep making his Fathers name known=YHWH(Jehovah)-- There is no other name in the bible for the true living God. Every spot in the NT where the OT is quoted and Gods name is in the OT in those spots, the name belongs in the NT in those quoted spots as well. Jerome told the Pope that fact when he was translating. But it didnt occur. There are translators who had the love and respect for God and his name to put it back where God inspired it to be because he wants it there. That bible is the New world translation. Condemned by those who lacked the love and respect for Gods will.

 

[Keiw]

Who is "the First and the Last" in Revelation ch1?

Jesus is first and last in many things--First and last created direct--First and last sent by God to be the Messiah. First and last appointed king over Gods kingdom until he hands it back. Among other things.

 

[David in NJ]

John 17:6, told his followers his Fathers name= YHWH. John 17:26--promises to keep making his Fathers name known=YHWH(Jehovah)-- There is no other name in the bible for the true living God. Every spot in the NT where the OT is quoted and Gods name is in the OT in those spots, the name belongs in the NT in those quoted spots as well. Jerome told the Pope that fact when he was translating. But it didnt occur. There are translators who had the love and respect for God and his name to put it back where God inspired it to be because he wants it there. That bible is the New world translation. Condemned by those who lacked the love and respect for Gods will.

NOPE - Not once did the LORD tell anyone His Fathers Name was YHWH.
the NT NEVER mentions YHWH as the FATHER but it does mention the LORD Jesus Christ and HIS FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT = ELOHIM (3)

ONLY in the OT is YHWH found because HE is the one who spoke and appeared to Moses = IAM = the same IAM that spoke to the Jews who picked up stones to stone HIM for blasphemey because HE said HE was IAM.
YHWH came to earth and therefore in the NT the LORD prays to His FATHER.

AND the LORD did make known to us HIS FATHERS NAME = SALVATION = YESHUA in Hebrew

“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves. 12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Med for anything in My name, I will do it.

 

[David in NJ]

Jesus is first and last in many things--First and last created direct--First and last sent by God to be the Messiah. First and last appointed king over Gods kingdom until he hands it back. Among other things.

i see you dabble in heresy quite a bit

there are jw's on here who have said that they will never worship the LORD Jesus Christ

Are you one of them?

 

[tigger 2]

Part D of answers to Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170:

The fourth request for clear undisputed evidence of a trinity (or Jesus being 'equally God'):

"Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

"(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)"

You could add "God, the Christ," "God, the Messiah," "God, the Firstborn," or any other term used exclusively for Jesus. But, surely, if the trinity were true, we would find the term "God, the Son" used equally with "God, the Father"!

Using a Bible concordance (Strong's, Young's, or an on-line concordance will do) and looking under "Son," you will find exactly zero uses of "God the Son."

Jesus is never called "God, the Son"!

 

[David in NJ]

Part D of answers to Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170:

The fourth request for clear undisputed evidence of a trinity (or Jesus being 'equally God'):

"Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

"(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God the Son," (equal to those declaring "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)"

You could add "God, the Christ," "God, the Messiah," "God, the Firstborn," or any other term used exclusively for Jesus. But, surely, if the trinity were true, we would find the term "God, the Son" used equally with "God, the Father"!

Using a Bible concordance (Strong's, Young's, or an on-line concordance will do) and looking under "Son," you will find exactly zero uses of "God the Son."

Jesus is never called "God, the Son"!

Question (D) is easy pie and just a repeat of Question(B)

The TRUTH begins in Genesis of the THREE whom the Scripture declares to BE.

Genesis 1:1-3 has the THREE as does "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = THREE
The HOLY SPIRIT paints a PERFECT Picture of the THREE for us to SEE = Abraham Isaac Jacob
Exodus irrefutably confirms that ELOHIM is THREE = Exodus 3:14-15

And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘Yahweh Elohe of your fathers, Elohe Abraham Elohe Isaac Elohe Jacob, has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

All THREE are confirmed AGAIN in the GOSPELS and in ACTS and in Revelation
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a Voice came from heaven, saying, “This is MY beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel,
that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

Without THREE you cannot SEE and if you remove any ONE there is no Gospel and you cannot be saved.

 

[Kermos]

Rich R, you eliminated from the quotation in your reply a critical point, that is, according to your assertion of your prior post to me specifically of "But unfortunately you've been fooled into believing the Greek mystery religions (Gnosticism) where only the enlightened can supposedly make sense" you've asserted that the Apostle Paul is a Greek Gnostic since Paul wrote "a natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:14-16).

You mentioned my use of the word "with" instead of "in." So why do you mention "the person of the Father" and "the person of the Word?" Those phrases aren't in the scriptures anymore than "they be one WITH us."

Scripture contains reference to the Father with the word "You" such as John 17:21-23, so we have a personification reference for the Father based on scripture; therefore, "the person of the Father" is a scriptural phrase.

Scripture contains reference to Jesus with the word "Me" such as John 17:21-23 as well as Jesus ("the Word", John 1:1, John 1:14) with the word "Him" such as John 1:3, so we have a personification reference for Jesus based on scripture; therefore, "the person of the Word" is a scriptural phrase.

While astute enough to spot my error of changing "in" to "with," you don't seem as keen in noticing your own writings. What's with all this "...about the Father along with the person of the word...?" Here's the actual scripture:

John 17:21-23,

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Lord Jesus says "We are One" (John 17:22), and Jesus uses the word "We" such that "We" includes the person of the Father along with the person of the Word, yet the people of God are not included in the word "We".

Thus, the "We" indicates the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) which is gloriously the person of the Father along with the person of the Word.

I see that we are one "in" God and Jesus. But that's all. Nothing there like, "about the Father..." But it does say in no uncertain terms that Jesus was praying that you and I, along with all other born again folks, are one. Exactly the same words used when Jesus said he and the Father are one. If Jesus was saying he was God, then you must be me...or is it that I must be you...or must we be something even weirder?

Rich R, as God had me point out to you in the post to which you replied, you apply your temporal thoughts against Jesus instead of Holy Spirit founded belief/faith.

Paul calls such thoughts "the natural man" in 1 Corinthians 2:14 quoted above.

Paul says born of God believers have "the mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2:16) which means we believers are one body of Christ thus in harmonious agreement; on the other hand, you deny being one body of Christ, so you are in diametric opposition with the Word of God.

We as a society have all agreed what it means to be "one" with something and it doesn't mean it actually IS that something.

Your claim about "society" must be tested.

An example for the test, one full apple pie in a pie tin sliced into 3 equal size pieces remains to be one pie for sale in a baked goods display cabinet.

The three pieces of pie are the one pie.

One piece of the pie is pie.

I'm changing your words such that the words "something" and "it" translate to the word "pie" within your words from your above quoted writing to test your spirit's veracity:

We as a society have all agreed what pie means to be "one" with pie and pie doesn't mean pie actually IS that pie.

Rich R, your statement is false because pie does mean pie actually IS that pie; therefore, your claim about society is deception.

The word "one" means one, yet the degree of the focal point may vary; in other words, the layer of abstraction can change for a given person, place, or thing.

Thus concludes the example of the word "one" that establishes a point of reference for the words of Jesus recorded in John 10:30 and John 17:21-23.

Now presenting another example by expanding the previous example to apply to John 1:1 through the next paragraph's dialog between a mom and her son.

The mommy asked "did you eat pie before dinner?", and Josiah answered "I ate one slice of pie at Levi's house."

Notice, the mommy used the noun "pie" without an article, not a definite article (the) nor an indefinite article (a or an).

The mom refers to the one actual pie including the three individual pieces, and the language frame is similar to John's use of the word "God" in anathrous within John 1:1.

The Apostle John refers to the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) including the person of the Word with his words of "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

The second occurrence of the word "God" in John 1:1 is undeniably and truthfully the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Analogies can have a point of failure, but the above firmly proves the point in Truth (John 14:6).

We know full well that it means two or more people are united in goals, purpose, action, etc.

Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in unity" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.

Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in goals" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.

Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in purpose" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.

Jesus stopped NOT with "We are One in action" in John 17:22, truthfully He did not.

Truthfully, Jesus includes unity, goals, purpose, action, etc in His use of "One" in "We are One" in John 17:22.

The etcetera in the enumeration includes the Truth (John 14:6) that the person of the Father along with the person of the Word are the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4) when Emmanuel says "We are One" in John 17:22.

We take it like that as far as all believers being one (John 17:21-22).

Believers are one in a Way (John 14:6) that you deny - you misunderstand because you hold tightly to the temporal instead of the Spiritual (2 Corinthians 4:18). See the explanation in post #1213 and post #1225 to which you replied.

What makes John 17:11 any different? After all Jesus said on more than one occasion that he only did what God wanted him to do. God said it...Jesus did it and he did it perfectly, crossed every jot and tittle. That fits with the normal way we take that phrase and we don't have to explain away:

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

continued to post #1270

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #1269

1Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.


You are assuming spiritual things don't have to make sense.

I convey that Spiritual matters make sense to to we who are one (John 17:11), and I convey that unbelievers do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to unbelievers; and unbelievers cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I convey that you, in your current state, do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to you, and you cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I think that if there is anything in this world that makes sense, it is God who is spirit (John 4;24). God, and therefore his words, are the epitome of logic. I trust you understand we get the word "logic" from "logos" of John 1:1. How ironic that many twist that word to mean something that actually defies logic to the max, i.e. that a son and his father are actually one person. OK, I know, its supposedly two people with one "essence." At least that's what the Athenasian Creed says. Of course the word "oosia" (essence) is not found in the actual scriptures. But you can find it abounding in Greek philosophy. Hmmmm....who to believe?

You wrote of logic.

Then you wrote "defies logic to the max, i.e. that a son and his father are actually one person", so you illogically produced something that I've not indicated.

Here is that which I've repeatedly proclaimed to you, the person of the Father along with the person of the Word are the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

You asked "who to believe?", and the answer is straightforward being the One Who says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) without limitation upon the good!

Eph 1:4,

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We were literally with God in the beginning?

Language fundamentals, Rich R, elude you. For example, Paul wrote not "we were present with God before the foundation of the world" as you convey that you think Paul wrote; on the other hand, Paul wrote God "chose us in Him before the foundation of the world" (Ephesians 1:4).

What exactly didn't you agree with after researching what the ancient Jews thought about pre existence?

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6), and good unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

You are looking in the wrong direction, Rich R.

And why does everybody keep using John to prove Jesus is God when John himself said he wrote to prove Jesus is the Messiah, the SON of God (John 20:31)? He didn't say he wanted to prove Jesus IS God.

The "Equality of the Father and the Son" equates to the Father being God and the Son being God

Lord Jesus says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 4:18).

Immediately after Jesus says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30), the very next thing He says is "I showed you many good works from the Father" (John 10:31).

See that God is good alone, and see that good in Jesus as recorded in John 10:31.

Moreover, the Jews response to Jesus' "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) is reminiscent of "For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).

The Apostle John expressed his very own observations and belief that the Son of God is equal to God according to John's linguistic construction of the sentence (John 5:18); moreover, no one is equal to God except for God and there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4); therefore, Jesus is God according to the Apostle John!

Too bad none of the Apostles in Acts knew this. None of them mentioned anything about believing Jesus is "I AM" or that he is God.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great God" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the God" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my God" wirh "My Lord and my God" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "God with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us the children of God (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "God" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

All I did was Romans 10:9-10. I confessed him as my Lord, my new boss (I trust you know that not all lords in the scriptures are God). At that moment God made me a new creation (Col 1:27), one that is as righteous as He is (Rom 3:22). I am God's workmanship (Eph 2:10). I have to weigh that against you telling me I will die in my sins. Hmmmm....who to believe?

As shown previously, you are not a new creation of God because you believe not the Word of God Who in Truth (John 14:6) says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Rich R, Jesus' sayings includes more about "I AM" in the same passage as John 8:58 with the Christ's sayings of "unless you believe that I AM, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

Rich R, see that unless you believe that Jesus is I AM, you will die in your sins.

You asked "who to believe?", and the answer is straightforward being the One Who says "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) without limitation upon the good!

Nothing more than fast typing and fat fingers.


Many OT figures had "el" in their name? Does that make all of them God?

No, but Emmanuel is God with us (Matthew 1:23), thus Jesus is God.

God was IN Jesus (2 Cor 5:19), so in that sense God was indeed with us. Christ is IN us (Col 1:27) so wherever we are Christ is! But it's even better; since God was in Christ, God is also in us! Wherever we are, so is God in Christ. Pretty good if you ask me! Also a huge responsibility. We represent God in this lost world. We better act like it (at least as best as we can).

For the record; I do love you as a brother! I'm glad God saved you from your trespasses and sins.

I love you as myself, so I proclaim to you the Word of God.

Jesus is God, so the Apostle John proclaims by John's writing about Jesus "making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18) - only God is equal with God AND God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4) SO Jesus is God!

A person must believe Lord Jesus Christ's sayings in order to be a Christian for Christ says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

You repeatedly reject Jesus and do not receive His sayings such as His words of "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) - you adulterate the Word of God.

As I wrote, I love you as myself, so I proclaim to you the Word of God. I see your trajectory of eternal punishment because you reject the Truth (John 14:6), and only the unadulterated Word of God can save you from death, not by your natural thoughts, but truly by the exclusive act of God (John 6:29, John 3:3-8).

 

[Kermos]

If your version is correct, its you with more than 1 God because if the Logos( word) is God then your second line actually is reading--and God was with God. Making more than 1 God--god small g is not calling that one the true God.

"the Word was with God" (John 1:1), that's accurate.

The grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so here is the proper replacement:

"the God was with God", while deviating from John's actual script, it is worth continuing with it.

First, I would like you to notice that we now have "the God" for Jesus, so by your own replacement you have assigned Jesus the place of ho Theos.

Second, God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), so a person saying "the God was with God" is equivalent to saying "the One and Only True God was with Godself".

Third, since John truly wrote "the Word was with God" (John 1:1), then the One True God includes the person of the Word, and other scripture shows that God includes the person of the Father (Romans 1:7) as well as the person of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

The Truth is only One True God is represented by John in John 1:1.

Your heart deceives about John 1:1 such that you treasure of "the Word was a god" results in two gods for you, and here is the indisputable formula:

Jehovah + Jesus "a god" = 2 gods

You think you have Jesus before Jehovah for your salvation; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this post to which you previously replied.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1 for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

continued from post #1269

I convey that Spiritual matters make sense to to we who are one (John 17:11), and I convey that unbelievers do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to unbelievers; and unbelievers cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

I convey that you, in your current state, do not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to you, and you cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised (1 Corinthians 2:14).

1 Cor 2:14,

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.​

Where does it say the scriptures don't make sense? It certainly doesn't say that once born again, a person suddenly acquires the ability to make sense out of nonsense. Natural man does not make sense, but the scriptures are the epitome of sensibility. The problem begins once mysticism is read into them. I'm sorry, but 3 people with one essence (or whatever) does not accord with reality, thereby making it mysticism. The scriptures are reality as God defines it. Man's ideas are not.

"Gnosticism was a second-century religious movement claiming that salvation could be gained through a special form of secret knowledge." learnreligions.com/what-is-gnosticism-700683
​

Exactly what you and many other Trinitarians aver!

Gnosticism Definition:

The term Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know" or "knowledge." This knowledge is not intellectual but mythical and comes through a special revelation by Jesus Christ, the Redeemer, or through his apostles. The secret knowledge reveals the key to salvation.​

Exactly what you and many other Trinitarians aver!

Prov 8:8-9,

8 All the words of my mouth [are] in righteousness; [there is] nothing froward or perverse in them.

9 They [are] all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.​

Plain: H5228 נָכֹחַ nakoach (naw-ko'-ach) adj.

1. straightforward.
2. (figuratively) equitable, correct.
3. (abstractly) integrity​

In contrast to the "secret" teachings of Gnosticism, the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say. When they say Jesus is the Son of God, they mean he is God's son and hence not God Himself. Why is that so hard comprehend?

John 17:3,

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.​

Jesus called his Father the ONLY true God! Jesus claimed, not that he was God, but that he was sent by God. I don't have to twist any words to see the clear deceleration of John. On the other hand, it takes mega-twisting to make this verse say Jesus is God.

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.​

Paul said exactly what Jesus said, i.e. that his Father is the only true God. Why do you fight both Jesus and Paul in these simple 6th grade reading level statements?

 

[Keiw]

NOPE - Not once did the LORD tell anyone His Fathers Name was YHWH.
the NT NEVER mentions YHWH as the FATHER but it does mention the LORD Jesus Christ and HIS FATHER and the HOLY SPIRIT = ELOHIM (3)

ONLY in the OT is YHWH found because HE is the one who spoke and appeared to Moses = IAM = the same IAM that spoke to the Jews who picked up stones to stone HIM for blasphemey because HE said HE was IAM.
YHWH came to earth and therefore in the NT the LORD prays to His FATHER.

AND the LORD did make known to us HIS FATHERS NAME = SALVATION = YESHUA in Hebrew

“Lord,” said Thomas, “we do not know where You are going, so how can we know the way?” 6Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. 7If you had known Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on you do know Him and have seen Him.” 8Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” 9Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words I say to you, I do not speak on My own. Instead, it is the Father dwelling in Me, performing His works. 11Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me—or at least believe on account of the works themselves. 12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in My name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14If you ask Med for anything in My name, I will do it.

You need to relook sir--There is no other name for God in the bible. You must need new teachers as well, but maybe you are just making it up all on your own.

 

[Keiw]

i see you dabble in heresy quite a bit

there are jw's on here who have said that they will never worship the LORD Jesus Christ

Are you one of them?

Worship is mistranslated in your bible. Israelites expected Gods appointed king, not God to come to earth. Thus they bowed in obesiance to their king. The Greek word actually translates-Bow and kiss the feet.

 

[Keiw]

"the Word was with God" (John 1:1), that's accurate.

The grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so here is the proper replacement:

"the God was with God", while deviating from John's actual script, it is worth continuing with it.

First, I would like you to notice that we now have "the God" for Jesus, so by your own replacement you have assigned Jesus the place of ho Theos.

Second, God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), so a person saying "the God was with God" is equivalent to saying "the One and Only True God was with Godself".

Third, since John truly wrote "the Word was with God" (John 1:1), then the One True God includes the person of the Word, and other scripture shows that God includes the person of the Father (Romans 1:7) as well as the person of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

The Truth is only One True God is represented by John in John 1:1.

Your heart deceives about John 1:1 such that you treasure of "the Word was a god" results in two gods for you, and here is the indisputable formula:

Jehovah + Jesus "a god" = 2 gods

You think you have Jesus before Jehovah for your salvation; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this post to which you previously replied.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1 for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Yes the word was with God--thus not God. There is only 1 God.

 

[David in NJ]

Worship is mistranslated in your bible. Israelites expected Gods appointed king, not God to come to earth. Thus they bowed in obesiance to their king. The Greek word actually translates-Bow and kiss the feet.

lol x100

So we bow and kiss an earthly kings feet but we should never bow and kiss the Feet of the LORD of Glory = KING of kings..........lolx100

 

[David in NJ]

Yes the word was with God--thus not God. There is only 1 God.

Genesis and Exodus and the Gospel declare their are THREE Elohim = FATHER SON HOLY SPIIRT

These THREE are ONE ELOHIM

 

[David in NJ]

Worship is mistranslated in your bible. Israelites expected Gods appointed king, not God to come to earth. Thus they bowed in obesiance to their king. The Greek word actually translates-Bow and kiss the feet.

I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ ”

Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son (worship), lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.
Psalm 2

 

[Kermos]

wow, how many different versions did i post, guess it doesnt matter, the scripture can be shown to you a million times, but you are not gonna let that come between you and your manmade doctrines. thats messed up.

so why do you refuse to accept scripture?

The four texts that you presented in your post to me contains "just as" ("just as" and "even as" are equivalents in John 17:21), so every single one of the translations accurately represents the Word of God distinguishing that the people of God are one while also distinguishing that the Word of God and the Father are One being the One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Thus says the Word of God "that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are One" (John 17:21-22).

The Word of God says that the people of God are one, and the Word of God says that the one people of God are in God.

The Word of God says not that the one people of God are one with the One True God which would have lead to indicating that the one people of God will be God.

In Truth, the Word of God says that the one people of God are in God.

It seems that you are desperately trying to adulterate the Word of God to say that the people of God are God.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

Not so fast my friend!

It is a linguistic fact that "I am" can be translated as "I will be." The Tyndale Bible (the first English translation from Hebrew & Greek) translates it that way. There are other versions that also translate it that way.

Understanding the nature of all the other gods in the Ancient Near East (ANE) will help to understand why God named Himself YHWH and why it is such a wonderful name. The gods of the ANE were more or less like humans in their actions and dispositions except they did everything much "bigger" than humans. They got angry, sad, afraid, confused. They were vindictive, holding grudges for eons. They were fond of sex orgies. They were selfish, caring only for their on good while caring little for humans. To these gods, humans were nothing more than playthings. meant to be used and abused. They would cause problems for people but never tell them why. If someone got sick or their crops failed, it was thought that some god or another was mad at them but they had no idea why nor what to do to regain the god's favor.

It is also noteworthy that the ANE gods had well defined and limited duties. The sun god made the sun rise and set and that's all he did. The storm god caused storms and that's all he did. The river god made the rivers to flow and that's all they did. I think you get the idea.

Along comes YHWH and shows Himself to be totally opposite from all other gods. Israel was fully aware of these gods so when YHWH told them His name their jaws probably dropped. His name told them that He was the only God they would need. He would do for them whatever needed to be done in whatever difficulty they might encounter. He would be whatever they needed Him to be, hence, "I will be." He alone would supply all they ever needed, regardless of their situation.

Exod 3:17,

And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

Look at the promise YHWH made to Israel. Unlike all the other capricious ANE gods, YHWH told them exactly what He was about to do. It can't be overstated how radical of an idea this was to the Jews.

I wish you could break out of tradition and see the real beauty of our Father and His only begotten son as told in the scriptures and nothing but the scriptures. There is nothing wrong with reading other sources, but all external writings must be compared with scripture. While there is plenty written by church Fathers about the trinity, the word itself is not in the scriptures, nor is there mention of "three" in connection with God's nature. YHWY is always referred to as being one. I can see you love God and His word, so I don't understand why you have to rely so much on external writings to arrive at your rule of faith and practice.

I think a really interesting experiment would be to find someone who never heard of the trinity (probably not really possible) and have them read the scriptures without preconceived ideas. I'm virtually certain that such a person would come away with the understanding that:

1 Cor 8:6,

But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

Sorry, but the son is simply not qualified to be the one God. The Father alone is God. As the scriptures declare some 35 times, Jesus is God's son and therefore not God.

Making Jesus God in one stroke obscures the brilliance of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1, to redeem mankind by a man, as well as the magnificent heroism of that man, Jesus Christ, who carried out that plan to perfection. Nothing is hard for God (Jer 32:27), so it would have been nothing for Him to obey Himself or to believe He'd raise Himself from the dead. Not so with the man Jesus Christ. The difficulty of the work Jesus did for us is beyond comprehension. Despite being tempted just like you and I (of course God can't be tempted), he never once succumbed to those temptations despite the grave bodily harm (a gross understatement) he suffered as a result of following the plan, the logos, of his Father to the letter. It's be like saying the war hero who sacrificed his life so others could be free meant little to nothing. How sad.

Rom 5:12 & 15,

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

What is so wrong with believing that?

The Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.