A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

 

[Rich R]

My take on the time interval was so man would have the benefit of all this time to be convinced we cannot be holy on our own.

Romans says that death came by man and so did our salvation. God gave man dominion in Genesis and He also gave us free will. God does not force anything on us. He only tries to convince us to do the right thing, but ultimately it's up to our own choices.

I believe it took 4,000 years to convey His plan of redemption, the logos of John 1:1, to the world because it took that long to find enough people to believe. It took that long to convince a woman to say, "be it done unto me according to thy word" in the face of an impossibility. It also took that long to give the Jews the scriptures which Jesus needed in order to know who he was and what he had to do. He came into this world just like the rest of us; knowing nothing. He grew in stature and wisdom just like the rest of us. In any case, he needed an instruction manual and it took 4,000 years for enough people to come along who would believe enough to write down what God wanted them to write.

God lovingly works with man to bring about His will. God will absolutely accomplish His final goal of a new heavens and new earth, but, since man is in charge (Gen 1:28 & Ps 8:6), it was ultimately man's free will that determined how long it would take for God to convince them to do His will. It took a lot of love, patience, resourcefulness, and genius but our God is mega-rich in all of those things! That is what the logos of John 1:1 is all about. It was a plan that motivated enough sinful and lost people to see the light and do the plan. Jesus of course is the absolute star of the plan, but without people like Abraham, Moses, David, etc believing God enough to live the plan, we would still be waiting for our redemption. It's a story far more glorious than God simply coming down and making things right all by Himself.

 

[Rich R]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler

Lord Jesus Christ's says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus Christ's words in John 8:58 germanely apply to the Word of God in Exodus 3:14 because the passage in John's exchange revolves around "who God is"; therefore, context between John 8:58 and Exodus 3:14 establishes.

That "I AM" in John 8:58 is "ego eimi" which also appears in the Septuagint version of Exodus 3:14 (the Septuagint is the Old Testament written in Greek about 200 years before Christ's birth); therefore, just like when Jesus says "My God, My God why have you forsaken Me" (Matthew 27:46) referring hearers to Psalm 22 which includes "They pierced my hands and my feet" (Psalm 22:16), in the same manner Jesus said "I AM" (ego eimi) referring hearers to Exodus 3:14 where God explains God's name to Moses with "I AM the Being" (ego eimi ho on); moreover, God continues explaining God's name in Exodus 3:14-15.

As the scriptural evidence shows, Jesus' words recorded in John 8:58 refer back to God's words in Exodus 3:14 and the continuing passage such as God's instruction for Moses to say to the Israelites "YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Exodus 3:15) which is also Jesus Christ's message Who is like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15).

In John 8:58, Jesus declares Himself to be "I AM the Being", YHWH God.

The Hebrew version of Exodus 3:14 also contains the equivalent of "I AM" in the Hebrew language.

Here is the passsge to which Jesus refers to as Jesus' name based upon His recorded words in John 8:58:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

You are building a doctrine on a few verses that are at best inferential while ignoring many many crystal clear verses that say Jesus was a man just like the rest of us. Well, there is one big difference. Instead of inheriting the sin of Adam through Adam's seed, Jesus was the result of a perfect seed God implanted in Mary's womb. But after that it was totally up to Jesus whether of not he'd follow the logos of John 1:1, God's plan of redemption, or go the way of Adam and take the devil up on his offer in the desert to worship him and become ruler of the world. Adam choked, Jesus obeyed.

As a man, Jesus had the same temptations as the rest of us. It would have taken only one single misstep for Jesus to have blown it and we'd still be dead in our trespasses and sins. He started out as a lamb without blemish, but it was his choice to remain so or not. But Jesus, a man with the same passions and desires as all men, went the distance. He, by his own free will, always decided to follow God instead of the world. He did so second by second for 30+ years. Give him the credit he deserves for that. Making him to be God totally negates the supreme mental and physical effort he had to exhibit to bring about our salvation.

This is why I say that making the logos of John 1:1 Jesus in one fell stroke diminishes the brilliance of God to come up with a plan that would allow one man, Jesus, to reverse the problems caused by another man, Adam, as well as making the supreme effort of Jesus to follow the plan to mean absolutely nothing. It's frankly a slap in the face to both God and Jesus to somehow make them to be one and the same individual. But our God is a forgiving God and He understands our frame. Anyone who confessed Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead is saved (Rom 10:9-10), and that regardless of their stand on the trinity. You should seriously stop condemning those who disagree with you to perdition.

 

[Wrangler]

He, by his own free will, always decided to follow God instead of the world. He did so second by second for 30+ years. Give him the credit he deserves for that. Making him to be God totally negates the supreme mental and physical effort he had to exhibit to bring about our salvation.

Great point!! If Jesus were God incarnate who merely took on the form of a man and only appeared to die, it has no theological significance at all, for God is all powerful and can do anything.

1 Timothy 2:5 (NLT) There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. Interestingly, the emphasis here is the distinction between 2 beings - God, in his singular, unitarian nature (not 3-in-1) and the man who is leveraged for the purpose of reconciliation - to God. According to this verse, if Jesus were God, we would have no means to reconcile ourselves to God. The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be over-stated!

 

[Rich R]

No, you cannot "just as easily say that God does not change in the sense that He will always be whatever Israel needed Him to be" because that is not what he Word of God says.

Why did you leave out the verses that I quoted that clearly say God can and does change His mind?

Jer 18:6-10,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.​

And what about all the times God was set on abandoning Israel, only to change His mind and show some mercy?

Do you categorically deny that, being in the imperfect form, the words could mean the future tense? If so you are wrong. The fact is the imperfect form indicates incomplete action in the present or the future. But here's the real kicker; wouldn't incomplete action indicate something that continues to occur? Wouldn't incomplete action indicate that the subject continues to perform the action? I think yes, in which case it is perfectly logical to say the God continues to be whatever He needed to be in order to free Israel from Egyptian bondage.

Even to this day, God will work with your free will decisions as best He can to keep you safe and sound. He is not a static, inflexible God like all the other Ancient Near East gods.

 

[Rich R]

Great point!! If Jesus were God incarnate who merely took on the form of a man and only appeared to die, it has no theological significance at all, for God is all powerful and can do anything.

1 Timothy 2:5 (NLT) There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. Interestingly, the emphasis here is the distinction between 2 beings - God, in his singular, unitarian nature (not 3-in-1) and the man who is leveraged for the purpose of reconciliation - to God. According to this verse, if Jesus were God, we would have no means to reconcile ourselves to God. The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be over-stated!

Exactly!

Here's a few more verses that explicitly call Jesus a man:

Rom 5:15,

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

Acts 2:22,

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:​

Acts 17:31,

Because he (God) hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man (Jesus) whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

1 Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

John 4:29,

Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ?​

(Israel was looking for a man to redeem them. Nowhere is there a hint they were looking for a god-man.)

John 8:40,

But now ye seek to kill me (Jesus), a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
​

It would be a futile effort to find even one verse that plainly states that Jesus is God. The power of tradition is absolutely mind numbing to me. I don't get it, but it's nothing new:

Matt 15:6,

And honour not his father or his mother, [he shall be free]. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
​

The tradition of the trinity truly greatly diminishes the efficacy of God's wonderful matchless Word, the plan, the logos of John 1:1.

 

[Wrangler]

It would be a futile effort to find even one verse that plainly states that Jesus is God. The power of tradition is absolutely mind numbing to me. I don't get it, but it's nothing new

It is mind numbing to me also. The trinitarians mental gymnastics are amazing!

Not only is Jesus obviously a man, the proof that he is NOT God is that Jesus died. This is proof text that Jesus is not God, since God is eternal, as you have pointed out so well.

In another thread the response was just made that there is no difference between God putting his words into a man (Duet 18:15-18) and God becoming incarnate! They just make stuff up as they go and the more vague the verse is, the stronger they rely on it 'supporting' their doctrine. Explicit text is not their friend.

Trinitarians do not realize they are deceived. 1 Timothy 1:17 says All honor and glory to God. And Acts 3:13 explicitly that Jesus is a servant of God. Trinitarians are sadly dividing the glory that is due to God to one of God's servants.

I have not yet gotten a trinitarian to explain how their doctrine does not violate the 1C.

The doctrine of the trinity is so important, in 66 books it is not mentioned once!

 

[Rich R]

It is mind numbing to me also. The trinitarians mental gymnastics are amazing!

Not only is Jesus obviously a man, the proof that he is NOT God is that Jesus died. This is proof text that Jesus is not God, since God is eternal, as you have pointed out so well.

In another thread the response was just made that there is no difference between God putting his words into a man (Duet 18:15-18) and God becoming incarnate! They just make stuff up as they go and the more vague the verse is, the stronger they rely on it 'supporting' their doctrine. Explicit text is not their friend.

Trinitarians do not realize they are deceived. 1 Timothy 1:17 says All honor and glory to God. And Acts 3:13 explicitly that Jesus is a servant of God. Trinitarians are sadly dividing the glory that is due to God to one of God's servants.

I have not yet gotten a trinitarian to explain how their doctrine does not violate the 1C.

The doctrine of the trinity is so important, in 66 books it is not mentioned once!

All so true. The trinity makes the best story ever told and into an incoherent mess. It's a clear indication of God's resourcefulness that anyone holding to the trinity doctrine can even be born again. Grace upon grace I guess. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8).

The "go to" answer for much of trinity doctrine is that Jesus is God and man (100% of each to be specific. What????), so when it is convenient Jesus is God and when it is convenient he is man. If we go with such illogical ideas, I'm sure we could prove that the Bible says Jesus is an alien from a far distant galaxy! I mean there's no limit to the nonsense once we abandon the meaning of simple words such as "son" and "father." Apparently a Trinitarian cares little about the universally accepted concept that a son can't be his own father.

 

[Wrangler]

The trinity makes the best story ever told and into an incoherent mess ...The "go to" answer for much of trinity doctrine is that Jesus is God and man (100% of each to be specific. What????) ... Apparently a Trinitarian cares little about the universally accepted concept that a son can't be his own father.

Trinitarians resort to ignoring or subordinating explicit teachings in Scripture to inferences (reading their doctrine into the non-trinitarian text), dualism and mystical artificial synthesis.

Thus, definition, logic and language usage are their enemies at every turn.

 

[Wrangler]

It's a clear indication of God's resourcefulness that anyone holding to the trinity doctrine can even be born again. Grace upon grace I guess. Love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8).

What bothers me so much is trinitarians make their doctrine - wholly absent from Scripture - to be THE requirement for salvation.

It does not seem to trouble them in the least that if this most important belief is true, that God would not find it appropriate to make it as explicit as possible, something like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it.

 

[tigger 2]

Far beyond that is the fact that the word "three" is never used for God in actual scripture (although nearly always used in the trinity creeds and definitions).

 

[Episkopos]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

From a curious question comes a curious answer...

There is no difference. Is see a problem with your view of the Trinity. I see this is an older post but here goes anyway..

There is an assumption among many that unless one holds to the Roman view of God being a trinity...then a person doesn't see Jesus as part of the Godhead. The truth is that the early church never believed in God as a Trinity. The addition by Gentiles into the mix is making God's Spirit to be a different person from Him.

Look at this verse from Paul,

"For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Cor. 2:11)

Paul here is making a DIRECT comparison between a man's spirit and God's Spirit.

Now NO JEW ever believed that God's Spirit was a separate person from Him. The trinity theory is a pagan addition. We Gentiles can't help but return to our roots!

The Jews had the scriptures for a thousand years before Jesus. They NEVER ONCE considered that ALL the references to God's Spirit was describing a separate person.

The Godhead is Father and Son joined by ONE Spirit. And we are invited into that Spirit of Oneness between Them to have fellowship in the Spirit with Them and others.

 

[tigger 2]

Part E of answers to Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170:

The fifth request for undisputed, clear, repeated evidence of a trinity (or that a person other than the Father is equally God with him) as requested in part #1 was:

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."

Again, when one searches through a good concordance ("spirit" or "holy"), he finds that there is never an instance of 'God, the Holy Spirit' to be found in scripture! Nor any other clear, undisputed, repeated evidence that the HS is equally God.

 

[Wrangler]

They NEVER ONCE considered that ALL the references to God's Spirit was a separate person.

The Godhead is Father and Son joined by ONE Spirit. And we are invited into that Spirit of Oneness between Them to have fellowship in the Spirit with Them and others.

Well said! My thoughts exactly!

 

[Rich R]

Trinitarians resort to ignoring or subordinating explicit teachings in Scripture to inferences (reading their doctrine into the non-trinitarian text), dualism and mystical artificial synthesis.

Thus, definition, logic and language usage are their enemies at every turn.

Logic is avoided simply be saying God's ways are above our ways. That is true enough, but it does not say we can't understand His ways once they've been revealed and Jesus certainly revealed the Father to us. If, as 1 Cor 2:16 says, we have the mind of Christ, then we ought to know what's what and not just live by "blind" faith.

John 10:38,

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
​

We can certainly understand that God was in Jesus, but our minds, and therefore our hearts, can't possibly know that three people are somehow all one and the same person. Technically, even Trinitarians don't actually believe in their hearts what they say with their mouths.

 

[Rich R]

What bothers me so much is trinitarians make their doctrine - wholly absent from Scripture - to be THE requirement for salvation.

It does not seem to trouble them in the least that if this most important belief is true, that God would not find it appropriate to make it as explicit as possible, something like, The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever. If there were such a verse, it would be the most quoted verse in Scripture by those who claim one’s salvation depends on believing it.

While Trinitarians are quick to condemn those who disagree to eternal torture, I can't recall ever seeing it go the other way. That in itself ought to speak volumes. There are many passages on how to get saved and not a single one mention the trinity let alone the requirement to believe it. As you said before, they just make up things as they go along. Still, God loves 'em and we should also.

1John 3:10-11,

10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
​

I for one wouldn't even think about condemning a born again (Rom 10:9-10) brother or sister, regardless of their stance on the trinity, once saved always saved (or not), baptism, manifestations of the spirit, or any other doctrinal point. A child of God has His incorruptible seed in them (1 Pet 1:23) and their fate is sealed...period...end of story! Even the child of an earthly father will always be that father's child, regardless of the child's conduct. Also, a child of God is His workmanship (Eph 2:10). When they condemn us they are insulting God's ability to save to the uttermost. But even that is forgiven by God and we ought to do the same. Truth needs no defense. It only needs to be spoken. They won't be wasted words. God will give the increase.

 

[Rich R]

From a curious question comes a curious answer...

There is no difference. Is see a problem with your view of the Trinity. I see this is an older post but here goes anyway..

There is an assumption among many that unless one holds to the Roman view of God being a trinity...then a person doesn't see Jesus as part of the Godhead. The truth is that the early church never believed in God as a Trinity. The addition by Gentiles into the mix is making God's Spirit to be a different person from Him.

Look at this verse from Paul,

"For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Cor. 2:11)

Paul here is making a DIRECT comparison between a man's spirit and God's Spirit.

Now NO JEW ever believed that God's Spirit was a separate person from Him. The trinity theory is a pagan addition. We Gentiles can't help but return to our roots!

The Jews had the scriptures for a thousand years before Jesus. They NEVER ONCE considered that ALL the references to God's Spirit was a separate person.

The Godhead is Father and Son joined by ONE Spirit. And we are invited into that Spirit of Oneness between Them to have fellowship in the Spirit with Them and others.

Many would rather believe the scriptures were given last year in LA or New York rather than to an Ancient Near Eastern people several thousands of years ago. Apparently, the attitude is, "Who cares what Israel thought about God? We'll make Him fit our own ways and times."

 

[tigger 2]

Part F of answers to Clear Challenges to the Trinity - A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians | Page 59 | Christian Forums @ Christianity Board #1170:

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?

-------- Explain how Jesus (and his disciples for many years after his death) were allowed to teach in the Temple and synagogues. If any Jews truly thought Jesus and his followers claimed that he was God, they would have been ejected (probably killed) at these times.

 

[Kermos]

I'm glad I don't have to stand before you at the end.

1 Cor 4:3-5,

3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.

4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

The Lord Jesus will judge me.

John 5:22,

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

YWHY committed that privilege to Jesus. Wait a second; one part of God committing something to another part? What? Oh my, the web weaved by the trinity seemingly knows no boundaries.

You are already judged for the Christ says "he who does not believe has been judged already" (John 3:18). You reject Jesus and you do not receive Jesus' sayings such as the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus also says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Your words revealed the treasure of your heart, and THE HOLY NAME OF GOD, YHWH, IS NOT YOUR HEART'S TREASURE BECAUSE YOU MISSPELLED GOD'S NAME AGAIN - AT LEAST 4 TIMES IN THIS THREAD!

Jesus says "for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also" (Matthew 6:21 [likewise Luke 12:34]).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

It is truly awesome that in Truth (John 14:6) Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as truly Man at his discretion when He deems it is appropriate and Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as truly God at his discretion when He deems it is appropriate!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

I take it you've still not researched how the ancient Jews viewed pre-existance? You really should, given that the scriptures were given to them some time ago and written in their terms. They certainly weren't weren't written last year in LA or New York.

Oh, look, your post is devoid of any scriptural reference about the matter that you are trying to dredge up.

The Word of God is Truth (John 14:6), and good unto salvation (Romans 1:16).

You are looking in the wrong direction, Rich R, so you disbelieve the Word of God Who in Truth (John 14:6) says that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).