A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

I already explained to you. There is no -i am that i am from Hebrew to English--i will be what i will be is correct. Why do you think they mistranslated that statement, then try to use it because Jesus said i am? He just answered the question honestly-he lived before Abraham. By their mistranslating the OT they try to use it to twist what Jesus says.

Only by errors translated in and twisting what is being said.

Only in your error filled versions.
Jesus tells truth--John 17:3--The one who sent him= Father = THE ONLY TRUE GOD.. So John would not contradict Jesus. Error has contradicted him.

Your explanations are a dead man walking explanations, and the following is scriptural proof.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

• Since your heart's treasure is that "Plain Theos in the last line at John 1:1gets-a god", then you have two gods (YHWH God + Jesus a god = 2 gods) as shown in post #509 in this thread, in effect your heart rails against the Word of God (John 1:1, John 1:14) being Jesus Christ being YHWH God (Exodus 20:3, Isaiah 45:5). And you repeat your evil proclamation as recorded in post #1247 in this thread
• You presented that Jesus is ho Theos in John 1:1 when you failingly asserted that I have two gods with your replacement of "the Word was with God" with "God was with God" as shown in post #1271 in this thread because the grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so the accuracte replacement is "the God was with God", and there is ho Theos for the Word, Who is Jesus (John 1:1, John 1:14).
• You claim the Wisdom of God was created according to your twisted interpretation of Proverbs 8
  as shown in post #733 in this thread, so, in effect, your heart's treasure is that YHWH God started off as a stupid being.
• YOUR HEART LIED when you convey that Jesus is never called "the God" in the New Testament with your words of "Jesus is never called HoTheos in the NT" as shown in post #510 in this thread, in effect, you call the Apostle Peter a liar since he wrote "the God" referring to Jesus in 2 Peter 1:1 - you deny Apostolic teaching!
• According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible as shown in post #719 in this thread, in fact, The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned in the referenced post.
• You wickedly persist in denying that Jesus will reign forever in the kingdom of God as the angel Gabriel prescribed in Luke 1:33 as shown in post #557 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of a 1,000 year limited reign for Jesus makes God's angel Gabriel out to be a liar since Gabriel declared "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).
• Your heart evilly adds 144,000 into the Book of Ezekiel to unscripturally tie the 144,000 into the Book of Revelation relating the 144,000 to your conjuring up of the Angel Michael being Jesus Christ, yet 144,000 is not mentioned in Ezekiel
  as shown in post #569 in this thread, in effect, your thoughts of Jesus being one and the same as Michael is your delusion as well as you adding to the Book of Revelation. Truly, Jesus is One with the Father (John 10:30).
• Your heart wickedly adds 1914 AD into "it was granted to take peace from the earth" (Revelation 6:4) as shown in post #427 in this thread, in effect your heart changes Revelation 6:4 to read "it was granted in 1914 to take peace from the earth".

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.

 

[XFire]

Question. Doesn't the trinity put a 2 step requirement for salvation on mankind. And if so then it can not be true and is man made tradition.

First you must accept Jesus as Lord and Savior (rom 10. 9-10) and many more.
Second you must deny Jesus' own word that he is a created being. Being the first creation of God the Father.

It seems that trinitarians deny the actual words that are in red. And if so then without the anchor of the word we can believe what we want.

I add this again. I believe Jesus is deity as the heir to God the Father. But don't the scriptures say that we all are. And that salvation is confession only and doesn't require a theology degree?

 

[Kermos]

I am not a Trinidadian. Unless you mean John 14 20.
But I do believe Jesus is deity. Just not everlasting to everlasting
He himself said in matt 28.18. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why shouldn't I belive my savior

Hello XFire,

I'm focusing in on where you wrote "I do believe Jesus is deity. Just not everlasting to everlasting".

As to your first sentence, the Word of God declares "I am YHWH, and there is no other; besides Me there is no deity" (Isaiah 45:5).

There is more, the Word of God declares "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6).

Let us not forget the Commandment of God "You shall have no other deities before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

In effect, you wrote that you have at least two deities or that Deity changes.

As to your second sentence, truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

See, all people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so such people have no gospel at all.

 

[Kermos]

Welcome XFire to the community of a bunch of generally great folks....you might need to wear a flak jacket and helmet and high rubber boots at times though..

Well 1 out of 2 ain't bad I reckon. I too am not a trinitarian. And I do not believe Christ is a deity as his Father. The Father is the only source of divinity and no one else. The Father can share it with others, although that does not mean the one sharing it with him then is also called a deity. It's a big diff.

Hello APAK,

When you wrote "I do not believe Christ is a deity as his Father", then you contradict Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great Deity" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great Deity and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the Deity" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the Deity and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my Deity" wirh "My Lord and my Deity" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "Deity with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty Deity, YHWH, with us the children of Deity (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "Deity" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Deity, and the Word was Deity" (John 1:1).

 

[XFire]

I do not understand. Do we/you believe the words in red. I personally believe the scriptures over what generations of man has written about this scriptures.. Jesus himself in rev 1.1 states this is his word. So when Jesus himself in rev 3.14 states he is the first creation of God. Then I believe that. Is not jehovah (jesus) the God of the old testamwnr? Next Isaiah 45.11.
Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Again Jesus himself states he has a maker.

Where is the confusion. I do believe in the book of John. But look go at it historically. It was probably written over da 20yr period and didn't start getting written until after the other 3 gospels.

Why isn't the gospel easy and peaceful. Why isn't God's word bring hope instead of turmoil. I love the Lord. But I refuse to agree that I have to believe in man's interpretation. That God is in man's image.
I wish instead that you and me could start a ministry together and build up the kingdom of God. That way we would be closer to Eph 4.11-14 and on

 

[APAK]

Hello APAK,

When you wrote "I do not believe Christ is a deity as his Father", then you contradict Apostolic testimony.

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great Deity" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great Deity and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the Deity" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the Deity and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

The Apostle Thomas calls Jesus "my Deity" wirh "My Lord and my Deity" (John 20:28).

The Apostle Matthew attests that Jesus is "Deity with us" Immanuel (Matthew 1:23) thus Jesus is truly Almighty Deity, YHWH, with us the children of Deity (Revelation 1:8).

The Apostle John calls Jesus "the Word" and "Deity" with "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Deity, and the Word was Deity" (John 1:1).

You are correct, I do contradict this unreliable source. You are a Trinitarian or Jesus=God religionist I suspect.

And the scripture you cite as many do, does nothing for the understanding of a deity and divinity for Christ, and only implicitly for the Father I'm afraid. There are many other scripture passages that you could have listed that show the opposition of you point that the Father only is the DIETY and Christ is not; he SHARES in the Father's divinity. And of course the Father is the source of divinity and the true Deity as 1C dictates.

This subject does draw attention to the minority thought and report of this subject. To one who is content, living over the other side of the fence and the street, away from the zealous mob on the other side.

You may be literally at least the 1000th person I've has to report to, and explain why I'm standing on the other side of the street and not wearing the same mouthpiece and wearing the same uniform as the popular majority, and you are one of them. Well I'm still here to explain it all as you believe you have no explaining to do but to fire away with a shotgun burst of scripture that you have no idea what it all means.

 

[XFire]

This is to kermos
Please contrast Isaiah 45.5 to Isaiah 45.11

You are right that there was no savior by Jehovah.
God the Father is above Jesus.
Remember that Jesus reigns forever on this earth.
God the Father reigns forever in heaven

 

[farouk]

I am not a Trinidadian. Unless you mean John 14 20.
But I do believe Jesus is deity. Just not everlasting to everlasting
He himself said in matt 28.18. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why shouldn't I belive my savior

Hebrews 1 says:

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy Throne, O God, is for ever and ever..."

 

[farouk]

@GRACE ambassador Thanks for the 'like'...

 

[keithr]

The Apostle Paul calls Jesus "the great Deity" (τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ) with "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great Deity and Savior, Christ Jesus" (Titus 2:13).

If Scripture seems to contradict itself then we should think that we must have misunderstood part of it. In the case of Titus 2:13 (WEB):

(13) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;​

you have understood it to mean that Jesus is both God and Saviour. However, that is in contradiction to many other verses of Gods' word (and God would not contradict Himself), so we should look for a different, more harmonious meaning. The verse is talking about the glory of God and the glory of our Saviour. Compare with Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 (WEB):

(16:27) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
(25:31) “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
​

John saw Jesus in his glory when he was transfigured, and so he wrote, John 1:14:

(14) The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Jesus also talked of his glory, John 17:24:

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
​

God has glory, and so does Jesus. Titus 2:13 is referring to the appearing of the glory of God and also the glory of Jesus.

The Apostle Peter calls Jesus "the Deity" (τοῦ Θεοῦ) with "Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of the Deity and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1).

Similarly in 2 Peter 1:1:

(1) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:​

The subject is the righteousness; again it's not saying that Jesus is both God and Saviour, it's saying that God is righteous, and so also is Jesus.

 

[APAK]

If Scripture seems to contradict itself then we should think that we must have misunderstood part of it. In the case of Titus 2:13 (WEB):

(13) looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ;​

you have understood it to mean that Jesus is both God and Saviour. However, that is in contradiction to many other verses of Gods' word (and God would not contradict Himself), so we should look for a different, more harmonious meaning. The verse is talking about the glory of God and the glory of our Saviour. Compare with Matthew 16:27 and 25:31 (WEB):

(16:27) For the Son of Man will come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will render to everyone according to his deeds.
(25:31) “But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory.
​

John saw Jesus in his glory when he was transfigured, and so he wrote, John 1:14:

(14) The Word became flesh, and lived among us. We saw his glory, such glory as of the one and only Son of the Father, full of grace and truth.​

Jesus also talked of his glory, John 17:24:

(24) Father, I desire that they also whom you have given me be with me where I am, that they may see my glory, which you have given me, for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
​

God has glory, and so does Jesus. Titus 2:13 is referring to the appearing of the glory of God and also the glory of Jesus.


Similarly in 2 Peter 1:1:

(1) Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:​

The subject is the righteousness; again it's not saying that Jesus is both God and Saviour, it's saying that God is righteous, and so also is Jesus.

One of the most excellent, complete, and concise posts you have made, at least in my view. It is honest, fair and articulated well. I just finished speaking to Titus 2:13 with someone else in a partial way as this post, with a slightly different emphasis and objective. I do not care your religious background or persuasion, it is the truth that I'm after, and confide in, isn't that what everyone is doing, right?

 

[APAK]

Yes I do believe that deity was a gift to the son as the true heir. But isn't that also for us.
Gen 1.26, psalms 82.6, John 10.33-36, rom 8.17

Gods whole creation is meant for increase. As in the seed is in all living things. That means the thought was to increase forever.

Question to you. When does a puppy become a dog.

I do believe in eternal life wo necessarily being deity. But I also know that a parent want to give all they have to their children..

1c??? I can't get back to read 1c while replying.

Support scripture is everywhere. As we will be joint his with jesus

Back to your more difficult questions and stance than a lot of other posts. I need to tread lightly here.

I believe you are saying at the top of your post that we will become as Christ as a deity, and ONLY of/from the Father? I'm very reluctant to jump that far as of today. If I agree with it and I might, it most probably has not the same definition of deity as you have in mind...? I do not know.

And the reason I do not jump there, is because most folks will misinterpret it as being as God etc..
Scripture I believe in 1 Peter speaks to Christ and us sharing in the divinity of the Father, our God. I will slant my view from this perspective. I'm very conservative and cautious in leaping to far forward with this most sensitive and difficult subject.

I pray about these things all the time, even it that means thinking about it from time to time.

I did not get to your other material yet. Can we just discuss this 'heavyweight' subject first?

This does lean into some of what the LDS believe - the Mormons. That we are not just going to immortality and shine in glory in a glorified state, we are to be independent gods etc.

And '1C' means the 1st Commandment....

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Back to your more difficult questions and stance than a lot of other posts. I need to tread lightly here.

I believe you are saying at the top of your post that we will become as Christ as a deity, and ONLY of/from the Father? I'm very reluctant to jump that far as of today. If I agree with it and I might, it most probably has not the same definition of deity as you have in mind...? I do not know.

And the reason I do not jump there, is because most folks will misinterpret it as being as God etc..
Scripture I believe in 1 Peter speaks to Christ and us sharing in the divinity of the Father, our God. I will slant my view from this perspective. I'm very conservative and cautious in leaping to far forward with this most sensitive and difficult subject.

I pray about these things all the time, even it that means thinking about it from time to time.

I did not get to your other material yet. Can we just discuss this 'heavyweight' subject first?

This does lean into some of what the LDS believe - the Mormons. That we are not just going to immortality and shine in glory in a glorified state, we are to be independent gods etc.

And '1C' means the 1st Commandment....

<hippo>

Clarifying LDS Christian beliefs here: we never replace God. Your Father is always your Father, Savior is always the Savior, etc. Rather than replacing God, His power and Atonement allows us to become one WITH Him. Joining Him, white as snow, perfect asHe is, one with Him. John 17 is a great chapter.

 

[APAK]

<hippo>

Clarifying LDS Christian beliefs here: we never replace God. Your Father is always your Father, Savior is always the Savior, etc. Rather than replacing God, His power and Atonement allows us to become one WITH Him. Joining Him, white as snow, perfect asHe is, one with Him. John 17 is a great chapter.

Yes, I seem to understand this part JD and in the scripture areas you directed me to go, except I don't understand your meaning of 'his power and atonement allows us to be one with him' phrase.

My meaning of it means when we are saved we possess the HS not in totality, only in part for salvation, of the spirits of Christ and truth, as there are more spirits of God for quite different functions. And then we later become immortal, we share directly in the divinity of God directly from God rather that via, indirectly through his Son, as mortals, as we do now.

And I believe LDS are Trinitarian so then you remove Christ as an indirect link to divinity and call him God with a direct link now and in immortality to the deity of the Father?

And does this also mean to you it's a sharing of God's divine nature and always being dependent upon the Father, or as independent deity given by the Father with an immortal body. Might need a couple of rounds to get the two-way understanding.

 

[tigger 2]

One of the most excellent, complete, and concise posts you have made, at least in my view. It is honest, fair and articulated well. I just finished speaking to Titus 2:13 with someone else in a partial way as this post, with a slightly different emphasis and objective. I do not care your religious background or persuasion, it is the truth that I'm after, and confide in, isn't that what everyone is doing, right?

.................................
We can find a number of translations and commentaries of Titus 2:13 which render it as referring to two persons:

13 lokynge for that blessed hope and appearynge of the glory of ye greate God and of oure Sauioure Iesu Christ - Coverdale

13 lokynge for þe blessed hope & appearinge of the glory of the greate God, & of oure sauioure Iesu Christ, - The Great Bible

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God, and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ, - Geneva

13 abidinge the blessid hope and the comyng of the glorie of the greet God, and of oure sauyour Jhesu Crist; - Wycliffe

13 lokinge for that blessed hope and glorious apperenge of ye myghty god and of oure savioure Iesu Christ - Tyndale

13 in expectation of that desirable happiness, the glorious appearance of the supreme God, and of our saviour Jesus Christ, - Mace

13 awaiting the blessed hope of the appearance of the Glory of the great God and of our Saviour Christ Jesus, - Moffatt

13 expecting the blessed hope; namely, the appearing of the glory of the great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - The Living Oracles

13 looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ; - Noyes

13 waiting for the blessed hope, the glorious appearing of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus, - Riverside

13 looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, - Sawyer

(KJV) Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

(New American Bible - 1970) as we await our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Christ Jesus

(New American Bible - 1991) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(New American Bible - 2010) as we await the blessed hope, the appearance of the glory of the great God and of our savior Jesus Christ

(A New Translation in Plain English - Charles K. Williams) while we wait for the blessed thing we hope for, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ

And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. - Phillips

We are to be looking for the great hope and the coming of our great God and the One Who saves, Christ Jesus. - NLV

13 Looking for that blessed hope, and appearing of that glory of that mighty God, and of our Savior Jesus Christ. - GNV

"looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of the mighty God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ," - NMB

According to An Idiom-Book of New Testament Greek, by C. F. D. Moule, Cambridge, England, 1971, p. 109, at Titus 2:13, the sense "of the Great God, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ ... is possible in [New Testament] Greek even without the repetition [of the definite article before the second noun]."

Noted British NT scholar and clergyman Henry Alford wrote: "I would submit that [a translation which clearly differentiates God from Christ at Titus 2:13] satisfies all the grammatical requirements of the sentence: that it is both structurally and contextually more probable, and more agreeable to the Apostle’s [Paul’s] way of writing: and I have therefore preferred it." - The Greek Testament, p. 421, Vol. 3.

 

[XFire]

Yes, I seem to understand this part JD and in the scripture areas you directed me to go, except I don't understand your meaning of 'his power and atonement allows us to be one with him' phrase.

My LDS perspective
The atonement completely brings us back to the prueness of the goespel. This means we are the righteousness before God's in 2Cor 5.21. It means we can be thru our faith; completely healed physically, mentally, spiritually, and emotionally as in Isaiah 53.5. It means that we can inherit and be heirs with Jesus to God the Father as in rom 8.17. It means we are definitely NOT trinitarians as shown in the following:

John 1.1 in the beginning. Rev 1.1. Jesus' own words state that rev was given by him to John. Rev 3.14 Jesus again stated that he was the first creation of God. Again in Isaiah 45.11 Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker. Jesus subordinates himself to the Father.

And the word was with God. As ref above
And the word was God. See mark 28.18
Question. Why do we as the creation tell God what he can do and what he is .etc

Why can't God have a son and that son be heir to his throne

Why did Jesus lie to us in john 20.17.

Please look at the history of man. Jesus was killed by the religious power in charge. Fast forward 300yrs

Arius was branded the first heretic because of rev 3.14. Then for the next 1300yrs Christians that wanted to read the Bible in there own language were killed and burned at the stake etc.

Then look at the history of the Canon of the book of revelations. There has never been any issue with rev 1.1 or rev 3.14.

So history teaches that Jesus spoke truth and Christ is deity and John 1.1 is true.

My meaning of it means when we are saved we possess the HS not in totality, only in part for salvation, of the spirits of Christ and truth, as there are more spirits of God for quite different functions. And then we later become immortal, we share directly in the divinity of God directly from God rather that via, indirectly through his Son, as mortals, as we do now.

And I believe LDS are Trinitarian so then you remove Christ as an indirect link to divinity and call him God with a direct link now and in immortality to the deity of the Father?

And does this also mean to you it's a sharing of God's divine nature and always being dependent upon the Father, or as independent deity given by the Father with an immortal body. Might need a couple of rounds to get the two-way understanding.

No Jesus will reign as God on the new earth and God the Father will continue raising up seed else where as there is continual increase in the creation of God

 

[APAK]

No Jesus will reign as God on the new earth and God the Father will continue raising up seed else where as there is continual increase in the creation of God

That is a new twist to 'a bigger plan of creation' for more that one world, XFire. Is this theory critical to making Christ the God of this physical earth then in the future? I for one do not believe this physical earth is going to be renewed at all. Christ will be the spiritual leader of the New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of his Father, the City of light, bathed in the presence of God, the Father,and only fit and occupied by all immortals of God, the Father.

 

[Wrangler]

We can find a number of translations and commentaries of Titus 2:13 which render it as referring to two persons:

This is consistent with the MANY times in Scripture where Jesus is juxtaposed with God, e.g., Jesus is servant, Acts 3:13, God is head of Christ, 1 COR 11:3, God gave Jesus revelation Rev 1:1. By contrast, the Father is always identified as God when they are both in a sentence, e.g., Rom 1:7-8, 1 COR 1:3, Gal 1:1.

It would be odd that Titus 2:13 is the exception since every Epistle, states God alone is the Father including Titus 1:4 May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.

This goes to show how profound the trinitarian deception is that all of Scripture points to their doctrine when the opposite can be shown to be the case, as above, every Epistle.

 

[APAK]

This is consistent with the MANY times in Scripture where Jesus is juxtaposed with God, e.g., Jesus is servant, Acts 3:13, God is head of Christ, 1 COR 11:3, God gave Jesus revelation Rev 1:1. By contrast, the Father is always identified as God when they are both in a sentence, e.g., Rom 1:7-8, 1 COR 1:3, Gal 1:1.

It would be odd that Titus 2:13 is the exception since every Epistle, states God alone is the Father including Titus 1:4 May God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior give you grace and peace.

Great input, especially the last statement

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, I seem to understand this part JD and in the scripture areas you directed me to go, except I don't understand your meaning of 'his power and atonement allows us to be one with him' phrase.

My meaning of it means when we are saved we possess the HS not in totality, only in part for salvation, of the spirits of Christ and truth, as there are more spirits of God for quite different functions. And then we later become immortal, we share directly in the divinity of God directly from God rather that via, indirectly through his Son, as mortals, as we do now.

And I believe LDS are Trinitarian so then you remove Christ as an indirect link to divinity and call him God with a direct link now and in immortality to the deity of the Father?

And does this also mean to you it's a sharing of God's divine nature and always being dependent upon the Father, or as independent deity given by the Father with an immortal body. Might need a couple of rounds to get the two-way understanding.

LDS Christians do believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 persons in 1 God. All having always existed, are all powerful, all benevolent/justice/merciful etc. But LDS Christians differ from Creedal Christians in that we don’t endorse the Creeds, such as the Athanasain Creed’s statement about them being one through a shared substance (which is interpreted many different ways). Basically the differences are in the metaphysics.

I haven’t been following this thread, and I do not completely understand your post, but I’ll at least try to explain LDS Christian views.

We become one with God, sharing that same goodness He has. That same everlasting love, sense of justice, mercy, perfection, etc. Being pure white outside and inside, having no disorder to do evil, but only good continually— doing His will. Total perfection in our hearts, minds, soils being given into Him. Sharing in all that He is/does/has. One with Him.