The many errors and contradictions found in Amillennialism.

[Davy]

Are you saying that Adam never had a physical body, until he ate from the tree?

This "spiritual" body is still a physical body. The body is physical. The spirit is spiritual.

I'm surprised that you can even speak English sometimes, since you obviously have poor reading skills.

Do you always try to project little ideas that pop into your head upon others, as if you 'think' you heard others speak to you? Do you hear voices? I never said the things you claim, you must be hearing voices.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What you are missing is that when a dead person becomes zao, an anazao took place.

That is not true unless you believe in soul sleep. Physically dead believers are still alive spiritually, so the word zao can be used to describe them as being alive spiritually (their souls/spirits being alive) even though they are physically dead.

That proves the beheaded saints in Revelation 20:4 were resurrected which proves beyond any doubt that Revelation has two resurrection events separated by a thousand years. That proves Amillennialism to be false and celebrates the truth of Premillennialism.

It proves no such thing because it is not true that the word zao, in reference to dead believers, can only refer to them as being bodily alive after being bodily resurrected.

 

[Timtofly]

You answered your own question, but then turned around and denied it.

Rev 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
KJV

Rev 21:9-11
9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
KJV

Per Revelation 21, the BRIDE is that "great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God".

So... you might want to re-think the traditions of men you have been listening to instead of staying in God's Word for yourself.

So you agree the church is not on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Good to hear that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Shame on you. No part of the bible is a "failure". No wonder most Amills hate the book of Revelation. The first known one didn't want the book canonized.

It looks like you have to resort to false accusations in order to support your false belief. That shows desperation on your part. You can't defend your doctrine with scripture, so you have to resort to insults instead. It is not true whatsoever that "most Amills hate the book of Revelation". That is a lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You mean what ewq1938 said about the Revelation beast is what I believe too? Yeah, that's right. He and I agree on that, simply because that is what the Revelation Scripture is showing.

Would you like to actually converse about those Revelation Scriptures, or do you want to keep showing your lack of manners, and... lack of education, by smarting off at me? You start by presenting the Scriptures you're having trouble with, and then I will be glad to show you.

I'm asking you what your understanding of the beast is and what it means for the beast to be in the bottomless pit/abyss. Am I asking too much here? You are not one to talk about a lack of manners. Stop being a hypocrite.

 

[Truth7t7]

That is not true unless you believe in soul sleep. Physically dead believers are still alive spiritually, so the word zao can be used to describe them as being alive spiritually (their souls/spirits being alive) even though they are physically dead.

It proves no such thing because it is not true that the word zao, in reference to dead believers, can only refer to them as being bodily alive after being bodily resurrected.

Yes there are 7th Day Adventist and Jehovahs Witnesses pushing the false doctrines of "Soul Sleep" and "Annihilationism" Beware!

 

[Timtofly]

"Sure"

Just as Sodom and Gomorrah was symbolic hyperbole in metaphor

2 Peter 2:6KJV
6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Lot and his daughters made it out. They were not even great people, but kept on living. So burning all people at one time is not proven here.

Lot did not even make it back into the company of Abraham and Isaac. He was left with the mindset of the world, and had incest with his own daughters. Even the lost world would condemn Lot.

Still not seeing how every single human is burned up at the Second Coming any where in Scripture. I don't even think Lot represents the church. That would be Abraham. The church begged God to spare the world if there be any to spare, yet unfortunately even the seemingly righteous, have to be changed after the judgment and cannot continue to live in sin.

Yet most people reject a "third group" that Lot represented.

 

[GEN2REV]

This argument may have worked if the date was 30AD. It is 2022AD. There have been 1992 years between the Cross and a Second Coming. It is not one single event.

If you think Paul was not talking about the Cross, when he wrote Christ the firstfruits, what did Paul mean?

Do you think Paul was claiming the end already happened at the Cross, even the GWT was already past in Paul's day? This is not twisting Scripture. This is determining what Paul actually meant. From Paul's other letters the Second Coming had not happened yet, but obviously the Cross had. Are we talking about a resurrection or are we talking about Jesus gathering humanity in a certain order because of the Resurrection?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:"

You avoid the actual words in Scripture, and complain about theology. Well that is my point; to toss out theology and look at what Scripture actually says. So tossing man's opinion out the window is my goal as well. But if you toss yourself out the window without explanation, that is fine as well.

We are not arguing over any single resurrection, although resurrection is part of the process. Paul stated "made alive", and did not specifically state a resurrection. So you, in your opinion, wrestle with the Scripture about specific resurrections, when Paul was talking about being "made alive". Being made alive has been an ongoing phenomenon for 1992 years, and not just about a resurrection. Why does there even have to be a resurrection prior to or at the GWT if being made alive is not about physical death specifically? Are those cast into the LOF made alive prior to being cast into the LOF? How does that even define being made alive, when it is also called the Second Death? So explain it by:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order:"

Is there only one single event where we are made alive? Did that happen before Genesis 1 even? Still does not explain away nor rule out 3 different points of Jesus presenting to God, "made alive" humans. Because Paul does not base these directly with a resurrection at all. You do, and the opinion of all Amil. Paul ends, not with a resurrection, but:

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Amil are stuck in a resurrection rut, when Paul moved on from being the Resurrection and the Life to being fully the Life and subjecting all creation and then turning the Word, the foundation of all creation, back over to God.

So no one is "inventing" a future 1,000 year reign. Paul pointed out that Christ as Prince reigns from the Cross until the GWT. Jesus presents humanity on an ongoing basis, starting with the Cross, and then handing the kingdom back to God. John just happens to point out the last part of the process is 1,000 years in length.

But no! Amil want to twist and turn Scripture and pretend God invented something within the last 100 years contrary to His Word. Obviously it was all stated in black and white even in the first century. Theology has tried to explain since the very beginning. Only after events happen, will human opinion finally understand looking back, as that is the easiest opinion to defend, unless of course no one agrees on history either. Then God re-writes history to create correct modern eschatological views. Because obviously only the current generation living knows all the answers, not God.

Simple.

Paul wasn't talking about the Cross, he was talking about the Resurrection of Christ.

Two different things, at two different times; 1 Cor. 15 only refers to the Resurrection of Christ, followed by the Resurrection of the Saints upon Christ's return.

Nowhere does it refer to the Cross.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lot and his daughters made it out. They were not even great people, but kept on living. So burning all people at one time is not proven here.

Lot did not even make it back into the company of Abraham and Isaac. He was left with the mindset of the world, and had incest with his own daughters. Even the lost world would condemn Lot.

Still not seeing how every single human is burned up at the Second Coming any where in Scripture. I don't even think Lot represents the church. That would be Abraham. The church begged God to spare the world if there be any to spare, yet unfortunately even the seemingly righteous, have to be changed after the judgment and cannot continue to live in sin.

Yet most people reject a "third group" that Lot represented.

No human body will survive the Lord's last day judgement in fire

Nahum 1:5KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

 

[Davy]

Well firstly, I do not believe that Adam was created spiritually dead. He was created with a body and soul and when the Spirit of God breathed (eternal) life into him, he became a living soul.
....

Apostle Paul showed you that the body that is sown, is NOT that body that shall be (i.e, the spiritual body).

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
KJV

So you need to HEED what Paul said there, and quite trying to make up stories that steer around it.

 

[Timtofly]

What's the "image of the heavenly"? A body like the angels of God in Heaven, which Jesus even pointed to in Mark 12:25 about the resurrection.

"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Ye therefore do greatly err!

Not one word about having an angel's body. But I agree, we will shine as the stars. The angels in their natural form shine in the firmament. As the stars are the angels. We don't become stars. We put on the robe of white, and shine as the stars. But notice something about angels:

When angels are sent to earth, the don't become us, they appear as us. They hide their robe of white, and appear in their physical bodies. But you object, no they appear in our physical bodies. But how can you prove they don't have physical bodies under their robes of white, when they shine as the stars? You can't either way, yet you force every one to choose between the physical and being a bright light, because that bright light is your alledged "spiritual body". Jesus certainly pointed that out on the mount of Transfiguration:

"And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light."

How is that not putting on a robe of white and shining as a star? The sun is both a light and a star by all current definitions. Jesus did not become the sun. Jesus put on light as the sun. So "your body" is not something without definition other than the word "spiritual". It is not even a body. It is the ability you put something on and take it off. But yet the spirit will always be with you, once put on, but taking it off does not make you loose it either. Adam disobeyed God and lost the spirit. None of Adam's offspring have access to this spirit, but it is not dead. It is in the presence of God, because that is where these spirits are. Unless they become reprobate from the soul that is reprobate, and then they are demons and devils. No one can put on a demon. A demon seeks to dwell in the mind and soul and take over.

God is the God of the living, not the dead. The dead have neither body nor spirit. The living since the Cross have been given a body that is permanent and incorruptible. But until this soul passes from earth into Paradise, we have Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and not the permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. But there is not a body up there waiting for us for thousands of years. It is created by God at the moment the soul arrives.

Many think only souls are enjoying Paradise. What is the point of going physically to Paradise without a physical body? Jesus did not shed His physical body. Jesus even had the Spirit part before the Cross, as He demonstrated on the mount of Transfiguration. So there is not a dichotomy between physical and spiritual. Adam's flesh is dead to both a physical body and the spiritual abilty to shine as the stars. Even angels appear in their physical bodies as humans. Or do you think God creates a new body each time an angel is sent to earth. You cannot prove it either way. You keep fighting because you think others do not see it your way. You constantly attack their mental capabilities. Yet you are so vague, it is like beating people with a wet noodle.

 

[Truth7t7]

Apostle Paul showed you that the body that is sown, is NOT that body that shall be (i.e, the spiritual body).

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
KJV

So you need to HEED what Paul said there, and quite trying to make up stories that steer around it.

You have a hard time understanding that Jesus Christ maintained a tangible body of flesh and bone after his resurrection, it could enter a room with doors being shut, and could vanish out of sight, the very same "glorified, eternal spiritual body" that all believers will receive at the second coming and resurrection on the last day

 

[Davy]

Scripture clearly teaches the believer will receive a tangible body of flesh and bone just as Jesus Christ maintained after his resurrection, Jesus being the first fruit

No, Scripture does NOT say any such thing.

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
KJV

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

1 John 3:2KJV
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

As for just how... we shall appear like Jesus in that time, did you not read the following?...

1 Cor 15:45-47
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
KJV

Did you not know that Jesus was made "a quickening spirit", and I emphasize the word "spirit" (Greek pneuma)??

Just what was Lord Jesus BEFORE He was born through woman's womb? Or don't you believe Jesus actually existed PRIOR to His being born through flesh woman?

 

[Davy]

Jesus maintains a tangible body of flesh and bone, nothing in scripture teaches that this body changed at the ascension as you claim

I already showed Scripture that shoots that false doctrine down to the dumps.

 

[Timtofly]

Your beliefs are so far away from historical orthodoxy I refrain from response, Aesops fables

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

"He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Aasops fables are historical orthodoxy, not God's Word. You can have them, I will take God's Word you seem to brush off.

 

[Davy]

So you agree the church is not on earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

Good to hear that.

You hearing VOICES in your head again?

I have NEVER agreed to men's false doctrine of a Pre-tribulation Rapture. You well know that too, which means you are now bearing... FALSE WITNESS, making up LIES.

Brethren in Christ:
What Timothy is pointing to is false Pre-trib Rapture's false idea that Jesus raptures His Church to Heaven prior to the "great tribulation", and then after His return they remain in Heaven off the earth ruling with Him over the wicked! That FALSE doctrine from devils, is SO EASY TO SHOW IT IS FALSE...

Rev 5:9-10
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals of it: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and language, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us to our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Webster

Yal like that Webster Bible version? (1833)

 

[Davy]

I'm asking you what your understanding of the beast is and what it means for the beast to be in the bottomless pit/abyss. Am I asking too much here? You are not one to talk about a lack of manners. Stop being a hypocrite.

Firstly, when someone begins spouting off at me, 'they' have begun the disrespectful tongue in their own mouths, not from me. And I am not the type to just lay down and take that disrespectful mouthing, so GO FISH if you don't like my 'return' attitude from one who shows disrespect from the start!

And secondly, the SAME thing applies with those who purposefully ABUSE God's Word with pushing men's doctrines that clearly go against it. If someone follows men's false leaven doctrines against God's Word, be sure I WILL point that out as I am able! And after I've done that, with those who TRY to counter back at me from their supposed hurt feelings just running their mouth and still not giving any Scripture support for their idea at all, those will then only make a SHOW TO TRUE BRETHREN of their lack of keeping God's Word, but instead reveal they are more interested in following men than God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lot and his daughters made it out. They were not even great people, but kept on living. So burning all people at one time is not proven here.

Lot did not even make it back into the company of Abraham and Isaac. He was left with the mindset of the world, and had incest with his own daughters. Even the lost world would condemn Lot.

Who made you the judge? Is being perfect a requirement to be a child of God? Clearly not. They all had faith in God, but they were sinners just like everyone else. But, Lot was not unrepentant regarding his sins.

Still not seeing how every single human is burned up at the Second Coming any where in Scripture. I don't even think Lot represents the church. That would be Abraham. The church begged God to spare the world if there be any to spare, yet unfortunately even the seemingly righteous, have to be changed after the judgment and cannot continue to live in sin.

Yet most people reject a "third group" that Lot represented.

Lot did not represent a third group. You're making that up in your own imagination. Scripture says that he was righteous. Not perfect or sinless, but righteous in God's eyes because he had faith. He was a sinner just like we all are, but he hated sin just like we all should.

2 Peter 2:7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Thank God you are not the judge or Lot would have a problem on the day of judgment. But, he has no worries since, in God's eyes, Lot was a righteous man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Firstly, when someone begins spouting off at me, 'they' have begun the disrespectful tongue in their own mouths, not from me.

You are disrespectful towards everyone you talk to here, so you are not deserving of any respect yourself.

And secondly, the SAME thing applies with those who purposefully ABUSE God's Word with pushing men's doctrines that clearly go against it. If someone follows men's false leaven doctrines against God's Word, be sure I WILL point that out as I am able! And after I've done that, with those who TRY to counter back at me from their supposed hurt feelings just running their mouth and still not giving any Scripture support for their idea at all, those will then only make a SHOW TO TRUE BRETHREN of their lack of keeping God's Word, but instead reveal they are more interested in following men than God.

All you can do is make claims but you have no scripture to back them up. I clearly showed you in another post how you interpreted Acts 2:29-36 wrong. Will you admit it? Of course not because you are a stubborn, prideful person.

 

[Davy]

"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err."

Ye therefore do greatly err!

Not one word about having an angel's body.

What part of the "image of the heavenly" that Apostle Paul taught do you NOT understand??

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

What is it with you, I have continually posted that evidence directly from Apostle Paul several times on this Forum, so I KNOW you've had chance to read that!

Yet you flat deny... that above Scripture! How do you think that makes you appear to others here who can read that in its simplicity??