A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

[Kermos]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

 

[Rich R]

Your words revealed the treasure of your heart, and THE HOLY NAME OF GOD, YHWH, IS NOT YOUR HEART'S TREASURE BECAUSE YOU MISSPELLED GOD'S NAME AGAIN - AT LEAST 4 TIMES IN THIS THREAD!

Here's what I said when I mis-spelled YHWH:

"YWHY committed that privilege to Jesus. Wait a second; one part of God committing something to another part? What? Oh my, the web weaved by the trinity seemingly knows no boundaries."
​

I don't know why you point out the speck in my eye while ignoring the beam in your own eye. You have no qualms about knowing that according to your doctrine, one part of God commits something to another, or that one part will be under another part (1 Cor 15:28). How does than not contradict your own doctrine? Aren't all "parts" (or whatever) of God supposed to be equal? How is one part under another equal?

 

[Kermos]

If your translations arent filled with errors, then either Jesus lied-John 17:3--teaches the one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD( every translation on earth) or none of its true. Its the only 2 choices. The best choice is to believe Jesus over errors.

JESUS REVEALS HIMSELF AS TRULY GOD AND TRULY MAN AT HIS DISCRETION

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

ABOUT BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

JUDGEMENT ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD

Fools, who say that Jesus is not God, are already judged for the Christ says "he who does not believe has been judged already" (John 3:18). Such fools practice the lawlessness of rejecting Jesus and such people do not receive Jesus' sayings such as the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus also says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

 

[Taken]

Here's what I said when I mis-spelled YHWH:

"YWHY committed that privilege to Jesus. Wait a second; one part of God committing something to another part? What? Oh my, the web weaved by the trinity seemingly knows no boundaries."
​

I don't know why you point out the speck in my eye while ignoring the beam in your own eye. You have no qualms about knowing that according to your doctrine, one part of God commits something to another, or that one part will be under another part (1 Cor 15:28). How does than not contradict your own doctrine? Aren't all "parts" (or whatever) of God supposed to be equal? How is one part under another equal?

The Trinity of God, me, myself and I, is no different than that which parallels a manKIND of thing, created and made in Gods Likeness...
Me, myself and I.

*A body, it’s life is BLOOD.
*A soul, it’s life is GODS BREATH.
*A natural spirit of man - true thoughts in his heart, while his carnal mind’s thoughts mixes truth and lies- giving way to the whole matter of mans “inner” contention, (commonly diagnosed, as depression, anxiety, duel personalities, mental health failures....and the tons of chemical compounds to gulp daily.)

ALL body’s SHALL die. God requires it.
Body’s that die FOR the Lord God, shall be saved, renewed.
Body’s that die AGAINST the Lord God, shall not be saved.

A Man IN HIS FLESH has power over his Body...Blood stops flowing Body Dies.
A Man IN HIS FLESH has power of Freewill to decide HIS ETERNAL FATE, WITH OR WITHOUT God.

A Man IN HIS FLESH has freewill to ACCEPT Gods offering, for that mans soul to be restored and saved unto God.

A Man IN HIS FLESH has freewill to SUMNIT his LIFE For God, for God to quicken (rebirth his natural spirit of truth) his spirit reborn of Gods SEED,

God IS creator and maker according to HIS PLAN of HIS WILL.
God reveals what He DOES through HIS WORD.
God IS Supreme POWER THAT HIS PLAN, WILL, PREVAILS.

* If you are curious, God HAS given each of HIS own PURPOSES...NAMES, TITLES, DESCRIPTIONS...
* And reveals every name, title, description that APPLIES TO HIM exclusively.

Lord ~ MAKER
SPIRIT -JESUS, High Priest, Word, Child, Babe, Same always, Servant, Teacher, Righteous, Sinless, Murdered, Risen, Glorified, Deliverer, Light, Truth, Life, Way, Savior, Holy, Authority, etc.
God ~ CREATOR
SPIRIT -YAHWEH, I AM, Jehovah, LORD, Authority, Teacher, Father, Holy, Deliverer, etc.
Almighty ~ POWER
SPIRIT, CHRIST, Holy, Wisdom, Teacher, Authority, Quickener, Seed, etc.

Lord God Almighty ~ One God

AN Individual man - multiple NAMES, multiple TITLES, multiple Descriptions..
mr jones; William Joseph Jones; Billy; Sir, Mister, Employer, CEO, President; Daddy, Brother, Husband, Neighbor, Boss, Employee, Honey, Sweetheart....
Blah, blah, blah.....called different names, titles, descriptions....by different people, but only ONE Same MAN.

Not multiple Gods, Not multiple Men......simply knowing and understanding the role the effect to accomplish particular WILLS........Gods WILL.....Mans WILL.

 

[Taken]

Rev 4:
[8] And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.

 

[Keiw]

@Aunty Jane @Keiw @Butch5 @keithr @Rich R @Pierac @DavidB @MatthewG @tigger 2 @jaybird @NayborBear @Wrangler

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

Jesus says I AM, and He did not say "I was created".

So, one week before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM ring true.

And, two weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM resound true.

And, three weeks before Abraham was born Jesus' words of I AM are true.

And, the minute prior to the minute any of all the angels were created Jesus' words of I AM trumpet true.

And, the week prior to any of the angels being created Jesus' words of I AM harmonize truthfully.

No matter when in time one seeks before Abraham was born, Jesus Christ's words of I AM remain absolutely true.

Going back in time, Jesus is always I AM, never created, He is always I AM.

Going back in time, anytime in all eternity because Jesus says "before Abraham" with no exceptions, Jesus Being.

Behold, Going back in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going back in time.

Jesus says "I am with you always, even to the end of the age" (Matthew 28:20).

The angel Gabriel declared to Mary about Jesus "He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end" (Luke 1:33).

Behold, Going forward in time, Jesus Being.

JESUS IS EVERLASTING going forward in time.

GOD is exclusively the One that IS EVERLASTING going back in time and going forward in time.

God is everlasting.

Jesus is everlasting.

No one except God is everlasting.

Everlasting YHWH God is Lord Jesus Christ for He declares "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58).

"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8, see also Revelation 21:6 and Revelation 22:13), thus says He Who is coming on the clouds!

"I am YHWH, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me" (Isaiah 43:10).

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

All people that think Jesus Christ was created hold to news that is not the Good News (Gospel) of Jesus Christ (Galatians 1:6-7), so you have no gospel at all.

I already explained to you. There is no -i am that i am from Hebrew to English--i will be what i will be is correct. Why do you think they mistranslated that statement, then try to use it because Jesus said i am? He just answered the question honestly-he lived before Abraham. By their mistranslating the OT they try to use it to twist what Jesus says.

 

[Keiw]

JESUS REVEALS HIMSELF AS TRULY GOD AND TRULY MAN AT HIS DISCRETION

Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as Man at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ can refer to Himself as God at his discretion and when He deems it is appropriate.

Here is an instance of Jesus, truly God, saying "I and the Father are One" (John 10:30) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of God thus including both the person of Jesus and the person of the Father in the One True God.

Here is another instance, this time of Jesus, truly Man, saying "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" (John 20:17) in which Jesus speaks in His capacity of Man thus including the person of Jesus and His brothers in one (John 17:21). See, the Son of Man being the firstborn of the born of God persons (Romans 8:29, Colossians 1:15, John 3:3-8).

We, children of God, can also refer to Jesus in his capacity as truly God as well as His capacity as truly Man. We can use context to make the distinction.

We, born of the Holy Spirit of God persons (John 3:3-8), are one in God (John 17:21) because of the indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17), thus God is One. We are the blessed beneficiaries of the Holy Spirit of God's work in us.

ABOUT BIBLE TRANSLATIONS

According to your assertion, you cannot have an accurate translation of the Bible. The Watchtower Society's New World Translation has a myriad of human-induced translational deceptions, and this fact can and has been proven using techniques mentioned below.

In reality, we have many ancient manuscripts of the Bible available for examination and cross referencing to determine accuracy of scribal duplication efforts.

For example, the Codex Sinaiticus dates to about 350 AD, and the facsimile is available online at Codex Sinaiticus - Home .

We have Greek manuscripts that predate the Roman Catholic Church.

The checks and balances for the source material of the Greek for the Bible results in accuracy.

We have accurate Greek manuscripts that result in accurate translations into English - but not always such as the intentionally corrupt New World Translation Bible.

Because God has preserved the Word of God, the Bible contains Truth (John 14:6).

JUDGEMENT ACCORDING TO THE WORD OF GOD

Fools, who say that Jesus is not God, are already judged for the Christ says "he who does not believe has been judged already" (John 3:18). Such fools practice the lawlessness of rejecting Jesus and such people do not receive Jesus' sayings such as the Truth (John 14:6) that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

Jesus also says "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day" (John 12:48).

Only by errors translated in and twisting what is being said.

 

[Kermos]

From Post 1280 by Kermos above:
All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)
......................................................

How do the KJV; RSV; NIV; NASB; NRSV; ESV; JB; etc. translate those verses?

"I Will Be"

Genesis 26:3 - Bible Gateway

Look at you, tigger 2, you cowardly failed to quote the post nor did you tag me with the @ (at) sign which provides an alert on this site. I do not plan to attempt to explain why some translators translated the present tense imperfect verb eyheh into future tense in those OTHER passages; however, it was nice of you to post the truthfully accurate rendering of those OTHER passages. The Truth (John 14:6) is that your argument for "I will be" instead of "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 fails linguistically, logically, and Spiritually, and the following illuminates your errors.

The old debunked and worn out and evil Watchtower Society Exodus 3:14 delusion is presented by you. You people do not understand Hebrew, then you deceive each other and you deceive yourself (2 Timothy 3:13).

The Hebrew word אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה (eyheh, am, Strong's 1961) is an imperfect verb, and this word is translated "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 (the "I" occurs because eyheh is singular in Hebrew).

A perfect verb is a word that conveys a completed action; in other words, an action that occurred in the past.

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

In other words, you think that YHWH God has to be created! This is according to your words of "I will be" for eyheh.

See where your contrivance leads.

"I AM Who I AM" is the accurate translation for Exodus 3:14 of the Hebrew TaNaKh - the Hebrew Bible, and here is the full of Exodus 3:14:

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God, furthermore, said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is My memorial-name to all generations." (Exodus 3:14-15).

All three of the phrases "I AM" in Exodus 3:14 are eyheh; therefore, the Word of God assigns the name "I AM" to YHWH God.

Now look at these other TaNaKh scriptures which use ehyeh and see how "I am" is the accurate translation:
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 26:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Genesis 31:3, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Exodus 3:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:12, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with your mouth" (Exodus 4:15, YLT)
YHWH speaks: "I am with you" (Deuteronomy 31:23, YLT)

Truthfully (John 14:6), the declaration by YHWH God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) is directly referred to by Jesus in "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58) such that Jesus declares Himself to be YHWH God.

 

[Rich R]

I am = εγω ειμι, the same as John 8:58?

I guess the blind man who Jesus healed would also be God.

John 9:9,

Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am (εγω ειμι) [he].
​

And we mustn't forget that Paul was also God.

Acts 26:29,

And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am (εγω ειμι), except these bonds.
​

There are many others just like this. Sorry, but saying I am (εγω ειμι) doesn't make one God.

​

An imperfect verb is a word that conveys an incomplete action; in other words, an action occurs past into present, present, and/or future.

With the imperfect verb eyheh being used for the Name of the One who is and who was and who is to come, then we use I AM for eyheh in English because YHWH God is I AM in the past and YHWH God is I AM in the present and YHWH God is I AM in the future.

You're contrivance of eyheh being "I will be" indicates that you think that YHWH God will become YHWH God at some time in the future after YHWH God speaks to Moses at the burning bush.

It doesn't have to mean that God will will become YHWH in the future. That's actually a pretty weird conclusion. Why couldn't it mean that God will be whatever He needs to be in order to make sure Israel gets our of Egypt and into the promised land? That certainly fits with both the context and the character of God. But I guess it takes a fair amount of wind out of the Trinitarian's sail, so let's just stick with that which makes little sense.

You've also apparently been hesitant to research the ancient Jewish concept of pre-existance. Knowing the truth on that point would certainly disqualify John 8:28 as being proof of the trinity. Or if you actually have researched it, for some reason you seem to be unwilling to consider it in developing your doctrine as to the nature of God and Jesus.

Your insistence that "eyheh" absolutely must be translated as "I am" is at odds with both scripture and most scholars including Trinitarian scholars. I think you know it, but you are afraid to admit it because, as I said above, translating it as "I will be" puts a huge dent in the Trinitarian argument. While pointing at others, accusing them of being disingenuous, you may want to realize you are pointing 3 fingers back at yourself. It's never too late to repent.

 

[Kermos]

How many x do you have to be told? Small g god is not calling that one God. It means has godlike qualities. But your 2nd line at John 1:1 reads-God was with God if the word is God--that is 2 Gods, plus another one-holy spirit- over there.

While John did not write godlike qualities, it is worthwhile to apply those words to John 1:1.

The Word having Godlike qualities means of necessity to be God because Jesus being equal with God of necessity means that Jesus is God (John 5:18, John 8:58).

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is a god for salvation before coming to another god that you call Jehovah; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Jehovah + Jesus "a god" = 2 gods

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this postto which you replied.

NOW ON TO YOUR FOOL CLAIM ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF JOHN 1:1.

"the Word was with God" (John 1:1), that's accurate.

The grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so here is the proper replacement:

"the God was with God", while deviating from John's actual script, it is worth continuing with it.

First, I would like you to notice that we now have "the God" for Jesus, so by your own replacement you have assigned Jesus the place of ho Theos.

Second, God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), so a person saying "the God was with God" is equivalent to saying "the One and Only True God was with Godself".

Third, since John truly wrote "the Word was with God" (John 1:1), then the One True God includes the person of the Word, and other scripture shows that God includes the person of the Father (Romans 1:7) as well as the person of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

The Truth is only One True God is represented by John in John 1:1.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Kermos]

As you say, God does not change. Almost paradoxically, part of His not changing is His prerogative to change certain things depending on the choices people make.

Jer 18:6-10,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Just read what's written without preconceived ideas from tradition. These verses state in no uncertain terms that God can repent and change His course of action depending on what people do. There are numerous examples of God saying He was finished with Israel's nonsense only to change His mind when they turned back to Him.

Part of the beauty of God's plan, the logos of John 1:1, is that He can respond to anything people do by their free will, whether right or wrong, in such a way that his son, Jesus, arrived on the scene and redeemed mankind. It took God 4,000 years of patiently working with a bunch of morons (people - I'm being tongue and cheek here) who didn't know up from down spiritually. What genius YHWH showed in responding to man's free will to accomplish His ultimate purpose. He had to consider millions of changing factors every second and respond in such a way that man would eventually do His will. Of course, make the logos into Jesus and all of that means nothing.

But if it was God Himself who came down to fulfill the promise of a redeemer, it does open a question; why do suppose He waited 4,000 years to do that? I mean an awful lot of his most precious creation, people, suffered and died between Genesis 3:15 and Acts 2.

I'm streamlining for clarity that which you preach.

1. You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change"
2. in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel"
3. which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be".

Now, it is time examine the Book of Jeremiah with an emphasis on Jeremiah 18:6-10.

Truly, the unchanging God (Malachi 3:6) who knows all things (Deuteronomy 29:29, Job 37:16) executes God's Plan for the redemption of Israel (Jeremiah 29:11) through the Christ (Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:13).

6 “Can I not, O house of Israel, deal with you as this potter does?” declares YHWH. “Behold, like the clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel." (Jeremiah 18:6).

Behold, YHWH God forms and controls Israel according to the Word of God in Jeremiah 18:6. God's control over Israel alone (Psalm 33:15) illuminates that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) because no purpose of God can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Israel is in the Hand of YHWH God like clay is in the potter’s hand (Jeremiah 18:6); therefore, Israel's adultery against God was known by God before Israel's stubborn rebellion with regurgitation from the Promised Land occured.

Truly, the clear and present context of Jeremiah 18:6 is the foundation for Jeremiah 18:7-10, so God knew in advance (Jeremiah 18:6) that Israel would not turn from it's evil (Jeremiah 18:8).; therefore, since God's plan is permanently accurate and unfailing, then nothing could happen without God's consent, so God does not change according to events in the temporal world no matter what happens in the world.

Notice, the Apostle Paul writes similarly "the Lord is faithful, and He will establish and guard you from the evil one" (2 Thessalonians 3:3).

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:6.
​

7 “At one moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to uproot, to pull down, or to destroy it;" (Jeremiah 18:7).

Interesting, the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:7 mentions not specifically Israel but rather more generic nation and kingdom, so this has horizontal application to nations.

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:7.
​

8 "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the calamity I planned to bring on it." (Jeremiah 18:8).

In Jeremiah 18:8, the Word of God says "if that nation", yet respecting Israel, God clearly says God forms and controls the nation, see Jeremiah 18:6 above, as the potter forms and controls clay in the potter's hand; therefore, YHWH God controls Israel, so God controls whether Israel will do the action of "turns from its evil" because God forms Israel.

The phrase "I will relent" is not a straight equivalency with the phrase "I will repent", and the word "relent" is the more accurate translation of נָחַם (Strong's Hebrew: 5162 - nacham - to be sorry, console oneself) in Jeremiah 18:8, yet truly "I will be sorry" is even more accurate.

Since God knows all things, then if God relents, then God backing off (relenting) does not mean that God changes (becomes something new nor morphs) because God is in control (Jeremiah 18:6) thus God is moving God's Plan forward.

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:8.
​

9 “Or at another moment I might speak concerning a nation or concerning a kingdom to build up or to plant it;" (Jeremiah 18:9).

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:9.
​

10 "if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it." (Jeremiah 18:10).

Behold, the phrase "I will think" in Jeremiah 18:10 is Strong's Hebrew: 5162, like in Jeremiah 18:8, so this carries the same implications.

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:10.
​

The unchanging One True God Who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8), this God Whose Name is Holy knows all things (John 16:30), this One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Exodus 3:14) does not change (Malachi 3:6) and this God is YHWH God and YHWH God is eminently present with the people of God so YHWH God is "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14).

The Spiritual impacts the temporal.

Oh foolish Rich R, you cite that which you do not understand, so you adulterate the Word of God.

Your word is that "in no uncertain terms that God can repent" in Jeremiah 18:6-10, yet that is proven to be deception in the above explanation, so you contradict the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10.

Your word is God changes, so you contradict the Word of God recorded in Malachi 3:6.

Your word is God is not God with your "I will be" for Exodus 3:14, so you contradict the Word of God recorded in Exodus 3:14.

Your word "I will be" for Exodus 3:14 conveys that God was not with Moses at the burning bush from the perspective of Moses' present/current activity at the burning bush, yet God was with Moses at the burning bush (Exodus 3:4). Truly, the Word of God illuminates that God whose Name is "I AM" being with Moses at the time of the burning bush - YHWH God eminently present!

Your word is Jesus was created for John 8:58, yet the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the perpetually living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

You call the Word of God a LIE, in fact, your word leads you to not know who God is.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

 

[Rich R]

I'm streamlining for clarity that which you preach.

1. You adulterate the Word of God recorded in Jeremiah 18:6-10 into the word of Rich R "if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I change"
2. in order to adulterate the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6) into the word of Rich R "I, Jehovah, do not change except I will become for Israel"
3. which you extend to adulterate the Word of God "I AM Who I AM" (Exodus 3:14) into the word of Rich R "I will be who I will be".

Jer 18:8,

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

​

Jer 18:10,

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
​

I will repent:H5162 נָחַם nacham (naw-cham') v.

1. (properly) to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly.
2. (by implication) to be sorry.
3. (hence, in a favorable sense) to pity, console.
4. (reflexively) to rue.
5. (hence, unfavorably) to avenge (oneself).​

Sure looks like God didn't know for sure what would happen and that He was willing to change His mind one way or the other. At least that's what it says if we just read what's written.

Gen 6:6,

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

Here God absolutely regretted His decision to create man. God gave man free will and He doesn't always know what any individual may or may not do.

Jer 36:3,

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.​

It may be: God wasn't sure what Judah would do. At least that's what if says if we just read what's written, apart from tradition.

Gen 22:12,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
​

now I know that thou fearest God: God wasn't sure about Abraham until he was about to plunge a knife into Isaac's chest.

2 Pet 3:9,

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

This is a good one. If God wants all people to be saved, why aren't they?

Num 14:11,

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
​

Did God know how long before Israel would believe Him or not? Reading what's written, it appears He didn't know.

The next few verses in Numbers shows God's first thought was to destroy Israel. Moses interceded and saved Israel. A type of Jesus there.

Isa 5:2-4,

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?​

God planned for good grapes, but wild ones came up instead. God thought He was doing right by Israel, but He was surprised they didn't follow Him. He did all He could do. Why would He have done that if He knew ahead of time that Israel would reject Him?

There are countless examples where God didn't know things. The reason is simple; He gave man free will. Now, to be sure, He knows for sure He'll redeem mankind and create a new heavens and new earth, but the exact way He does that is largely dependent on the choices free will individuals make. He wants people to do the right thing, but He won't force them nor does He know for sure what people will do.

It's be a puny god indeed that simply controlled everything and everybody to do the job. It takes a far, far wiser and resourceful God to work with free will people to accomplish His goals.

Thinking God just controls everything is yet another way to diminish His greatness. It's the same with changing the brilliance of His plan for redemption, the logos of John 1:1, into Jesus. The plan is the plan and Jesus is Jesus. Jesus did the plan (logos), but the plan (logos) is not Jesus. How fantastic that God could convince a man, tempted in all point just like you and I (do you feel like you're God when tempted? Well then, neither did Jesus, else his temptation would have been nothing like yours or mine), to do His will to perfection. Giving us free will is absolutely essential to our loving God. He didn't force any of us to confess His son as Lord and believe that He raised him from the dead. Pure free will, and although God would like to see everybody do that (2 Pet 3:9), He's not sure who will and who won't until the curtain goes down.

God didn't always know what He'd have to do. It depended on Man's response. Hence His deceleration that He'd be whatever He had to be in order to protect Israel. Like I said, He knew for certain that in the end He'd get His way. He just wasn't sure exactly how it would go. He had to be flexible, i.e. "I will be what I will be." God will not change His flexibility!

Time to reconsider tradition.

 

[Keiw]

While John did not write godlike qualities, it is worthwhile to apply those words to John 1:1.

The Word having Godlike qualities means of necessity to be God because Jesus being equal with God of necessity means that Jesus is God (John 5:18, John 8:58).

You do not escape the fact that for your heart, John 1:1 reads "the Word was a god" resulting in Jesus being a separate god from YHWH God thus your "a god" is a god for salvation before coming to another god that you call Jehovah; therefore, YOU are in violation of the commandant "You shall have no other gods before Me" (Exodus 20:3).

Jehovah + Jesus "a god" = 2 gods

Do not be deceived, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1) is the accurate translation as shown in this postto which you replied.

NOW ON TO YOUR FOOL CLAIM ABOUT THE MIDDLE OF JOHN 1:1.

"the Word was with God" (John 1:1), that's accurate.

The grammar must remain consistent, so the definite article for God needs to be included with your replacement text since the word "Word" has the definite article, so here is the proper replacement:

"the God was with God", while deviating from John's actual script, it is worth continuing with it.

First, I would like you to notice that we now have "the God" for Jesus, so by your own replacement you have assigned Jesus the place of ho Theos.

Second, God is One (Deuteronomy 6:4), so a person saying "the God was with God" is equivalent to saying "the One and Only True God was with Godself".

Third, since John truly wrote "the Word was with God" (John 1:1), then the One True God includes the person of the Word, and other scripture shows that God includes the person of the Father (Romans 1:7) as well as the person of the Holy Spirit (John 15:26).

The Truth is only One True God is represented by John in John 1:1.

The Apostle John proclaims Jesus to be YHWH God with those words in John 1:1for there is only One True God (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).

Only in your error filled versions.
Jesus tells truth--John 17:3--The one who sent him= Father = THE ONLY TRUE GOD.. So John would not contradict Jesus. Error has contradicted him.

 

[XFire]

I have a question I was hoping to maybe get some answers on from non-Trinitarians. Here goes: Using scriptural proofs, what would you say is the difference between serving the man Jesus Christ and serving God? I ask because this question presents itself in the following passage of scripture:

22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eye-service as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as unto the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. Serve Christ the Lord. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. (Colossians 3:22-25)

The Trinitarian interprets "the Lord" here to be one and the same in every verse, referring to the Lord Jesus Christ, whom Paul's readers were being encouraged to serve with sincerity of heart, in fearing God. The non-Trinitarian, however, interprets verses 22-24 to be references to serving God, whereas the phrase in v.24 "Serve Christ the Lord" is a sudden transition to talking about serving the man Jesus Christ.

So how from scripture is serving the man Jesus Christ different from serving God?

Blessings in Christ to all who respond.
Hidden In Him

I am not a Trinidadian. Unless you mean John 14 20.
But I do believe Jesus is deity. Just not everlasting to everlasting
He himself said in matt 28.18. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why shouldn't I belive my savior

 

[APAK]

I am not a Trinidadian. Unless you mean John 14 20.
But I do believe Jesus is deity. Just not everlasting to everlasting
He himself said in matt 28.18. All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Why shouldn't I belive my savior

Welcome XFire to the community of a bunch of generally great folks....you might need to wear a flak jacket and helmet and high rubber boots at times though..

Well 1 out of 2 ain't bad I reckon. I too am not a trinitarian. And I do not believe Christ is a deity as his Father. The Father is the only source of divinity and no one else. The Father can share it with others, although that does not mean the one sharing it with him then is also called a deity. It's a big diff.

 

[XFire]

I do like your answer. There are no buts here.
As I understand things.
Jesus will reign on the new earth.
I think that God the Father will be doing the same things that are done here on other worlds.
I believe that the Father does have an heir. And the heir becomes like the Father.. which is Deity.
And due to Matt 28.18 I then believe Jesus obtained deity.

Another way I think of it is how easy is it for a God to come to earth and raise themselves up.
But how much more a creation of God (rev 3.14) raise themselves up. As Jesus was commanded of tje Father .

No i do believe Jesus will reign as God on the nee earth

 

[APAK]

I do like your answer. There are no buts here.
As I understand things.
Jesus will reign on the new earth.
I think that God the Father will be doing the same things that are done here on other worlds.
I believe that the Father does have an heir. And the heir becomes like the Father.. which is Deity.
And due to Matt 28.18 I then believe Jesus obtained deity.

Another way I think of it is how easy is it for a God to come to earth and raise themselves up.
But how much more a creation of God (rev 3.14) raise themselves up. As Jesus was commanded of tje Father .

No i do believe Jesus will reign as God on the nee earth

Thanks...
By being given all authority in heaven and earth does this also equate to been given divinity or becoming a new deity in the process?

And does not an immortal human being suffice without being divine or a deity, if that were even possible?

And does your belief violate the 1C?

I need to ponder and digest this a bit more as I at this moment do not see any scripture supporting a new deity and divine authority except the Father of Yahshua.

I will sign off now for the evening....thanks for your thoughts

 

[XFire]

Yes I do believe that deity was a gift to the son as the true heir. But isn't that also for us.
Gen 1.26, psalms 82.6, John 10.33-36, rom 8.17

Gods whole creation is meant for increase. As in the seed is in all living things. That means the thought was to increase forever.

Question to you. When does a puppy become a dog.

I do believe in eternal life wo necessarily being deity. But I also know that a parent want to give all they have to their children..

1c??? I can't get back to read 1c while replying.

Support scripture is everywhere. As we will be joint his with jesus

 

[XFire]

As we will be joint heirs with jesus

 

[XFire]

Jer 18:8,

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

​

Jer 18:10,

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
​

I will repent:H5162 נָחַם nacham (naw-cham') v.

1. (properly) to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly.
2. (by implication) to be sorry.
3. (hence, in a favorable sense) to pity, console.
4. (reflexively) to rue.
5. (hence, unfavorably) to avenge (oneself).​

Sure looks like God didn't know for sure what would happen and that He was willing to change His mind one way or the other. At least that's what it says if we just read what's written.

Gen 6:6,

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.​

Here God absolutely regretted His decision to create man. God gave man free will and He doesn't always know what any individual may or may not do.

Jer 36:3,

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.​

It may be: God wasn't sure what Judah would do. At least that's what if says if we just read what's written, apart from tradition.

Gen 22:12,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.
​

now I know that thou fearest God: God wasn't sure about Abraham until he was about to plunge a knife into Isaac's chest.

2 Pet 3:9,

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
​

This is a good one. If God wants all people to be saved, why aren't they?

Num 14:11,

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
​

Did God know how long before Israel would believe Him or not? Reading what's written, it appears He didn't know.

The next few verses in Numbers shows God's first thought was to destroy Israel. Moses interceded and saved Israel. A type of Jesus there.

Isa 5:2-4,

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?​

God planned for good grapes, but wild ones came up instead. God thought He was doing right by Israel, but He was surprised they didn't follow Him. He did all He could do. Why would He have done that if He knew ahead of time that Israel would reject Him?

There are countless examples where God didn't know things. The reason is simple; He gave man free will. Now, to be sure, He knows for sure He'll redeem mankind and create a new heavens and new earth, but the exact way He does that is largely dependent on the choices free will individuals make. He wants people to do the right thing, but He won't force them nor does He know for sure what people will do.

It's be a puny god indeed that simply controlled everything and everybody to do the job. It takes a far, far wiser and resourceful God to work with free will people to accomplish His goals.

Thinking God just controls everything is yet another way to diminish His greatness. It's the same with changing the brilliance of His plan for redemption, the logos of John 1:1, into Jesus. The plan is the plan and Jesus is Jesus. Jesus did the plan (logos), but the plan (logos) is not Jesus. How fantastic that God could convince a man, tempted in all point just like you and I (do you feel like you're God when tempted? Well then, neither did Jesus, else his temptation would have been nothing like yours or mine), to do His will to perfection. Giving us free will is absolutely essential to our loving God. He didn't force any of us to confess His son as Lord and believe that He raised him from the dead. Pure free will, and although God would like to see everybody do that (2 Pet 3:9), He's not sure who will and who won't until the curtain goes down.

God didn't always know what He'd have to do. It depended on Man's response. Hence His deceleration that He'd be whatever He had to be in order to protect Israel. Like I said, He knew for certain that in the end He'd get His way. He just wasn't sure exactly how it would go. He had to be flexible, i.e. "I will be what I will be." God will not change His flexibility!

Time to reconsider tradition.

I agree. God didn't have to or want to think thru every evil thought of man. As any parent does not want to do that.