A Curious Question For Non-Trinitarians

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Wrangler

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Great input, especially the last statement

It goes to show how desperate the trinitarians must find 'support' for their doctrine in light of Jesus’ own explicit statements that he has a God (John 20:17), and Jesus’ God is the only true God (John 17:3) ... but Jesus is the word ... but he said he is one with God ... but this sentence could be read to refer to one person ... but he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to ... but he only died physically ... but ... but ... but.

It can be demonstrated that Jesus is not God, which explains why Jesus said he has a God and his God is the only God. Jesus died. Isaiah 40:28 and 1 Timothy 1:17 both tell us that God is eternal and unchanging. The death of Jesus is proof text he is not God.

The most important commandment, the Sh'ma begins by telling us that God is one, no translation has Deut 6:4 to mean 3-in-1. And someone recently said how trinitarians consider God to be one, when it is convenient and 3 in 1 when it is convenient. One of my favorite arguments by trinitarians is that it does not go against the trinity when the Bible only talks about the Dynamic Duo, such as John 1:18 and every Epistle's prologue. Such devotion to go against what Scripture explicitly says! Only the Father is explictly identified as God, not once is God the Holy Spirit or God the Son in Apostolic writing. It means nothing to their doctrine.

If there were one exception, it would be everything to trinitarians.
 

XFire

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LDS Christians do believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 persons in 1 God. All having always existed, are all powerful, all benevolent/justice/merciful etc. But LDS Christians differ from Creedal Christians in that we don’t endorse the Creeds, such as the Athanasain Creed’s statement about them being one through a shared substance (which is interpreted many different ways). Basically the differences are in the metaphysics.

I haven’t been following this thread, and I do not completely understand your post, but I’ll at least try to explain LDS Christian views.

We become one with God, sharing that same goodness He has. That same everlasting love, sense of justice, mercy, perfection, etc. Being pure white outside and inside, having no disorder to do evil, but only good continually— doing His will. Total perfection in our hearts, minds, soils being given into Him. Sharing in all that He is/does/has. One with Him.

Wow the person who wrote that is NOT LDS
 

Jane_Doe22

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Wow the person who wrote that is NOT LDS
….??? I am LDS. Active, believing, temple worthy.

Actual LDS Christian beleifs are very different what others will tell you. Part of this is due to simple language differences, part due to just blatant misinformation. If you want I can refer you to several threads on the subject I’ve written here.
 

XFire

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Back to your more difficult questions and stance than a lot of other posts. I need to tread lightly here.

I believe you are saying at the top of your post that we will become as Christ as a deity, and ONLY of/from the Father? I'm very reluctant to jump that far as of today. If I agree with it and I might, it most probably has not the same definition of deity as you have in mind...? I do not know.

And the reason I do not jump there, is because most folks will misinterpret it as being as God etc..
Scripture I believe in 1 Peter speaks to Christ and us sharing in the divinity of the Father, our God. I will slant my view from this perspective. I'm very conservative and cautious in leaping to far forward with this most sensitive and difficult subject.

I pray about these things all the time, even it that means thinking about it from time to time.

I did not get to your other material yet. Can we just discuss this 'heavyweight' subject first?

This does lean into some of what the LDS believe - the Mormons. That we are not just going to immortality and shine in glory in a glorified state, we are to be independent gods etc.

And '1C' means the 1st Commandment....
It is a huge leap of faith.
Question to APAK and all

When does a puppy become a dog
L
Please don't laugh but I want to h
Read your answers
 

Jane_Doe22

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JaneDoe 22. Sorry I thought you were saying LDS are trinitarian
Yes and no, depending on how you define it.

Yes in believing that 3 divine persons in 1 God.
No in believing Creedal statements like about being of one substance.
 
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XFire

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I do not wish to get too deep as I have other issues with the church.
But this i know. The LDS church seem to believe and know the Bible better than most Christians and their denominations.
 
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APAK

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Become one WITH God.
Not replacing Him.

And yes, I find this very consistent with all of John 17.
This sound like John 17:20-24 for all believers today and 2 Peter 1:2-4 in part today as we now and shall continue to share/participate in the divinity of the Father as Christ fully does today. So if true that means to become one with God, THE FATHER, then I agree with your words.

John 17:19-24
19For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth. “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.…

All fully realized in the future into immortality.
 

APAK

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It is a huge leap of faith.
Question to APAK and all

When does a puppy become a dog
L
Please don't laugh but I want to h
Read your answers
when the puppy has stopped literally growing, as a major sign I would think
 

Jane_Doe22

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  • This sound like John 17:20-24 for all believers today and 2 Peter 1:2-4 in part today as we now and shall continue to share/participate in the divinity of the Father as Christ fully does today. So if true that means to become one with God, THE FATHER, then I agree with your words.
John 17:19-24
19For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth. “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one—I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2Grace and peace be multiplied to you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has given us everything we need for a godly life through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.
4Through these He has given us His precious and magnificent promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, now that you have escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.…

All fully realized in the future into immortality.
Believers are starting on the path today. Full sanctification and perfection is a lifetime+ journey. We got a loooooonnng way to go.
 
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Keiw

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Your explanations are a dead man walking explanations, and the following is scriptural proof.

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a dangerously unreliable source.


Its you who are in error. Lies are not being spoken, neither of us lies, but one is erring.
Here are some facts to prove Jesus is created
Psalm 45:7-- You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners--- see even the ot teaches Jesus has a God--partners = angels.
Hebrews 1:3,4--He is the reflection of glory, and the exact representation( image) of his( God) very being and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he has made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.-4) So he( Jesus) has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

So without God making Jesus name above all other names he would still be equal to the angels.

You translations are filled with misleading errors.
 
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XFire

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So APAK. hadn't heard from y'all about when a puppy becomes a dog.

When does a puppy become a dog.. A puppy is always a dog he just grows up to become like his father.

Genesis 1.27 and 28 man is created in God's image and given all power over the Earth.

Again in psalms 82.6 man is created in God’s image.

And then our Lord and savior himself in John 10. 33-36 States that the scripture cannot be broken and he says that who the word of God comes to is the Son of God.

Then in Romans 8.17 the apostle Paul makes the declaration that we are heirs, joint airs with Jesus Christ to God the father.

Then in John 14.20 Jesus is in God and Jesus is in us. All 3 of us together.

So when does man, the creation of the living God of heaven and Earth become God. When he has made the decision to live like God.

As any parent wants the best for their children. God wants the best for us.

Christian. Look at the sleeping church and wake it up by claiming your destiny.

Go and possess the things a loving father has for you.
 

Kermos

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You are building a doctrine on a few verses that are at best inferential while ignoring many many crystal clear verses that say Jesus was a man just like the rest of us. Well, there is one big difference. Instead of inheriting the sin of Adam through Adam's seed, Jesus was the result of a perfect seed God implanted in Mary's womb. But after that it was totally up to Jesus whether of not he'd follow the logos of John 1:1, God's plan of redemption, or go the way of Adam and take the devil up on his offer in the desert to worship him and become ruler of the world. Adam choked, Jesus obeyed.

As a man, Jesus had the same temptations as the rest of us. It would have taken only one single misstep for Jesus to have blown it and we'd still be dead in our trespasses and sins. He started out as a lamb without blemish, but it was his choice to remain so or not. But Jesus, a man with the same passions and desires as all men, went the distance. He, by his own free will, always decided to follow God instead of the world. He did so second by second for 30+ years. Give him the credit he deserves for that. Making him to be God totally negates the supreme mental and physical effort he had to exhibit to bring about our salvation.

This is why I say that making the logos of John 1:1 Jesus in one fell stroke diminishes the brilliance of God to come up with a plan that would allow one man, Jesus, to reverse the problems caused by another man, Adam, as well as making the supreme effort of Jesus to follow the plan to mean absolutely nothing. It's frankly a slap in the face to both God and Jesus to somehow make them to be one and the same individual. But our God is a forgiving God and He understands our frame. Anyone who confessed Jesus as Lord and believes God raised him from the dead is saved (Rom 10:9-10), and that regardless of their stand on the trinity. You should seriously stop condemning those who disagree with you to perdition.

You write very wickedly as you disregard and disrespect and dishonor the Word of God! Jesus flat out says the Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Jesus proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The Word of God says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58), so uncreated Jesus is alive everlasting.

You and @Wrangler (with your like of Rich R's post) deceive.

There are many, many verses that says Jesus is God, and there are many, many verses that say Jesus is Man, thus Jesus Christ is truly Man (Luke 1:26-33) - the Son of Man, and Jesus Christ is truly God (Luke 1:34-35, John 8:58, John 20:28, John 5:18, John 10:30-31) - the Son of God.

Based on this Truth (John 14:6), Jesus Christ and Christians can refer to Jesus as Man.

Furthermore. Jesus Christ and Christians can refer to Jesus as God.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).
 

Kermos

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Why did you leave out the verses that I quoted that clearly say God can and does change His mind?

Jer 18:6-10,

6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

And what about all the times God was set on abandoning Israel, only to change His mind and show some mercy?

Do you categorically deny that, being in the imperfect form, the words could mean the future tense? If so you are wrong. The fact is the imperfect form indicates incomplete action in the present or the future. But here's the real kicker; wouldn't incomplete action indicate something that continues to occur? Wouldn't incomplete action indicate that the subject continues to perform the action? I think yes, in which case it is perfectly logical to say the God continues to be whatever He needed to be in order to free Israel from Egyptian bondage.

Even to this day, God will work with your free will decisions as best He can to keep you safe and sound. He is not a static, inflexible God like all the other Ancient Near East gods.

Because, even in your first sentence, you have the leaven that leads to death in your words as just demonstrated in the next few paragraphs.

You cannot "just as easily say that God does not change in the sense that He will always be whatever Israel needed Him to be" because that is not what he Word of God says. Truly, the Word of God says "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6), so "I AM Who I AM" is accurate and true for Exodus 3:14; on the other hand, you adulterated the Word of God twice in one fell swoop:

You convey that God changes according to the whims of Israel in diametric opposition to the Word of God thus you wickedly change Malachi 3:6.

You convey that God must be created sometime in some way after the burning bush event with your "I will be" for Exodus 3:14 thus you wickedly change Exodus 3:14.
 

Kermos

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Here's what I said when I mis-spelled YHWH:

"YWHY committed that privilege to Jesus. Wait a second; one part of God committing something to another part? What? Oh my, the web weaved by the trinity seemingly knows no boundaries."

I don't know why you point out the speck in my eye while ignoring the beam in your own eye. You have no qualms about knowing that according to your doctrine, one part of God commits something to another, or that one part will be under another part (1 Cor 15:28). How does than not contradict your own doctrine? Aren't all "parts" (or whatever) of God supposed to be equal? How is one part under another equal?

Your words revealed the treasure of your heart, and THE HOLY NAME OF GOD, YHWH, IS NOT YOUR HEART'S TREASURE BECAUSE YOU MISSPELLED GOD'S NAME AT LEAST 4 TIMES IN THIS THREAD!

A person who dishonors and disrespects the Most High's Holy Name besmirches God, so such a person utters lies and gibberish.
 

Kermos

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I guess the blind man who Jesus healed would also be God.

John 9:9,

Some said, This is he: others [said], He is like him: [but] he said, I am (εγω ειμι) [he].

And we mustn't forget that Paul was also God.

Acts 26:29,

And Paul said, I would to God, that not only thou, but also all that hear me this day, were both almost, and altogether such as I am (εγω ειμι), except these bonds.

There are many others just like this. Sorry, but saying I am (εγω ειμι) doesn't make one God.


It doesn't have to mean that God will will become YHWH in the future. That's actually a pretty weird conclusion. Why couldn't it mean that God will be whatever He needs to be in order to make sure Israel gets our of Egypt and into the promised land? That certainly fits with both the context and the character of God. But I guess it takes a fair amount of wind out of the Trinitarian's sail, so let's just stick with that which makes little sense.

You've also apparently been hesitant to research the ancient Jewish concept of pre-existance. Knowing the truth on that point would certainly disqualify John 8:28 as being proof of the trinity. Or if you actually have researched it, for some reason you seem to be unwilling to consider it in developing your doctrine as to the nature of God and Jesus.

Your insistence that "eyheh" absolutely must be translated as "I am" is at odds with both scripture and most scholars including Trinitarian scholars. I think you know it, but you are afraid to admit it because, as I said above, translating it as "I will be" puts a huge dent in the Trinitarian argument. While pointing at others, accusing them of being disingenuous, you may want to realize you are pointing 3 fingers back at yourself. It's never too late to repent.

You, @Wrangler, and @tigger 2 (by your like of Rich R's post) foolishly subtract the substantial Truth of Jesus' words "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM" (John 8:58), so according to the Christ, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past which means He is uncreated thus He proclaims that He is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past (Isaiah 45:5).

The blind man never claimed to exist before Abraham.

The three of you make very foolish claims.
 

Kermos

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Jer 18:8,

If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 18:10,

If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

I will repent:H5162 נָחַם nacham (naw-cham') v.
1. (properly) to sigh, i.e. breathe strongly.
2. (by implication) to be sorry.
3. (hence, in a favorable sense) to pity, console.
4. (reflexively) to rue.
5. (hence, unfavorably) to avenge (oneself).

Sure looks like God didn't know for sure what would happen and that He was willing to change His mind one way or the other. At least that's what it says if we just read what's written.

Gen 6:6,

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Here God absolutely regretted His decision to create man. God gave man free will and He doesn't always know what any individual may or may not do.

Jer 36:3,

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.

It may be: God wasn't sure what Judah would do. At least that's what if says if we just read what's written, apart from tradition.

Gen 22:12,

And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

now I know that thou fearest God: God wasn't sure about Abraham until he was about to plunge a knife into Isaac's chest.

2 Pet 3:9,

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This is a good one. If God wants all people to be saved, why aren't they?

Num 14:11,

And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

Did God know how long before Israel would believe Him or not? Reading what's written, it appears He didn't know.

The next few verses in Numbers shows God's first thought was to destroy Israel. Moses interceded and saved Israel. A type of Jesus there.

Isa 5:2-4,

2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

God planned for good grapes, but wild ones came up instead. God thought He was doing right by Israel, but He was surprised they didn't follow Him. He did all He could do. Why would He have done that if He knew ahead of time that Israel would reject Him?

There are countless examples where God didn't know things. The reason is simple; He gave man free will. Now, to be sure, He knows for sure He'll redeem mankind and create a new heavens and new earth, but the exact way He does that is largely dependent on the choices free will individuals make. He wants people to do the right thing, but He won't force them nor does He know for sure what people will do.

It's be a puny god indeed that simply controlled everything and everybody to do the job. It takes a far, far wiser and resourceful God to work with free will people to accomplish His goals.

Thinking God just controls everything is yet another way to diminish His greatness. It's the same with changing the brilliance of His plan for redemption, the logos of John 1:1, into Jesus. The plan is the plan and Jesus is Jesus. Jesus did the plan (logos), but the plan (logos) is not Jesus. How fantastic that God could convince a man, tempted in all point just like you and I (do you feel like you're God when tempted? Well then, neither did Jesus, else his temptation would have been nothing like yours or mine), to do His will to perfection. Giving us free will is absolutely essential to our loving God. He didn't force any of us to confess His son as Lord and believe that He raised him from the dead. Pure free will, and although God would like to see everybody do that (2 Pet 3:9), He's not sure who will and who won't until the curtain goes down.

God didn't always know what He'd have to do. It depended on Man's response. Hence His deceleration that He'd be whatever He had to be in order to protect Israel. Like I said, He knew for certain that in the end He'd get His way. He just wasn't sure exactly how it would go. He had to be flexible, i.e. "I will be what I will be." God will not change His flexibility!

Time to reconsider tradition.

According to your posted definition of nacham Strong's 5162, there is no "change" mentioned. "Sorry", yes, thus sorrow yes.

Look at "YHWH was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart" (Genesis 6:6), that is "sorry" not "repent".

God sent God's prophets who declared to Israel the calamity that God would have befall upon Israel, so God knew that Israel would not "turn from their evil" (Jeremiah 18:8) because YHWH God forms and controls Israel according to the Word of God in Jeremiah 18:6. God's control over Israel alone (Psalm 33:15) illuminates that God does not change (Malachi 3:6) because no purpose of God can be thwarted (Job 42:2).

Israel is in the Hand of YHWH God like clay is in the potter’s hand (Jeremiah 18:6); therefore, Israel's adultery against God was known by God before Israel's stubborn rebellion with regurgitation from the Promised Land occured.

Truly, the clear and present context of Jeremiah 18:6 is the foundation for Jeremiah 18:7-10, so God knew in advance (Jeremiah 18:6) that Israel would not turn from it's evil (Jeremiah 18:8); therefore, since God's plan is permanently accurate and unfailing, then nothing could happen without God's consent, so God does not change according to events in the temporal world no matter what happens in the world.

Notice, the Apostle Paul writes similarly "the Lord is faithful, and He will establish and guard you from the evil one" (2 Thessalonians 3:3).

There is no mention of God changing in Jeremiah 18:6-10.

Therefore, both you and @Wrangler (per your like of Rich R's post) "proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived" (2 Timothy 3:13) with your evil desire that God changes despite the Word of God "I, YHWH, do not change" (Malachi 3:6)!

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).
 

Kermos

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Its you who are in error. Lies are not being spoken, neither of us lies, but one is erring.
Here are some facts to prove Jesus is created
Psalm 45:7-- You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. That is why God, your God has anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your partners--- see even the ot teaches Jesus has a God--partners = angels.
Hebrews 1:3,4--He is the reflection of glory, and the exact representation( image) of his( God) very being and he sustains all things by the word of his power, and after he has made a purification for our sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty in lofty places.-4) So he( Jesus) has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs.

So without God making Jesus name above all other names he would still be equal to the angels.

You translations are filled with misleading errors.

@Keiw

You have been exposed as a liar about the Word of God such as your wicked claim that Jesus was created. and here are posts exposing your public deception:

So just like Charles Taze Russell, you, Keiw, you are adding to The Book of Revelation and/or you are subtracting from The Book of Revelation.

The year 1914 is not specified in the Book of Revelation; therefore, the following applies to you as a person who adds to the Book of Revelation:

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book" (Revelation 22:18-19).

Therefore, you are a deceptive and unreliable source.

Immanuel (Matthew 1:23 "God with us"), Jesus, is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8).
 
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