For those who think Christ is not God.

[Truther]

Your point is very true Devin, again the Bible really doesn't use the term inferior/inferior, however Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. Being someone's head in authority does not make one superior to the individual. Superiority is not really to be a trait among us, remember Jesus' words:


Thomas was an apostle Devin, he knew who God was. Many versions add an exclamation point to that verse, as many have exclaimed my God when something shocking comes to their attention. It was the context, Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be God, but for the first time realized the man in their midst was actually Jesus living right in front of them. It would be a shock to anyone.

More Info:
*** it-2 pp. 55-56 Jesus Christ ***
What did Thomas mean when he said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God”?
On the occasion of Jesus’ appearance to Thomas and the other apostles, which had removed Thomas’ doubts of Jesus’ resurrection, the now-convinced Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: “My Lord and my God! [literally, “The Lord of me and the God (ho The·osʹ) of me!”].” (Joh 20:24-29) Some scholars have viewed this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. However, others claim the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the expression “My Lord and my God” would still have to harmonize with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. Since the record shows that Jesus had previously sent his disciples the message, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God,” there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. (Joh 20:17) John himself, after recounting Thomas’ encounter with the resurrected Jesus, says of this and similar accounts: “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.”—Joh 20:30, 31.

So, Thomas may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in the sense of Jesus’ being “a god” though not the Almighty God, not “the only true God,” to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray. (Joh 17:1-3) Or he may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. (Compare Ge 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-33; 32:24-30; Jg 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, “I am the true God.” (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as “my God” in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas’ words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, “The Father is greater than I am.”—Joh 14:28.

So, you think Thomas was really saying "Oh my Lord God in heaven, the man is alive"!...?

The KJV got it that wrong?

 

[Johann]

I believe you answered what the word Messiah is correct? Since I believe you know, then who was it that made Jesus the Messiah? Is God anointed, or does He do the anointing?

"Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" (Matt. 16:13b).

In response to Jesus' question, the disciples ticked off various views that were being put forward:

"Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets" (v. 14). Jesus was being identified with all kinds of people, but none of these speculations was correct.

Then Jesus asked the disciples, "But who do you say that I am?" (v. 15b). Peter answered with what is known as the great confession, a statement of his belief as to the identity of Jesus: "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God" (v. 16). With these words, Peter declared that Jesus was the Christos, the Mashiach, the Anointed One.

Robert...Then Jesus asked Robert... "But who do you say that I am?"

J.

 

[dev553344]

Sorry @Pearl & @Goldie75 if I was rude. I have trouble debating with my mental illness. I think I'll back out now.

 

[Johann]

So, you think Thomas was really saying "Oh my Lord God in heaven, the man is alive"!...?

The KJV got it that wrong?

Can you see how the Scriptures are being "philosophized" away by the reasoning of fallible man @Truther?


Joh 20:28 In reply, T'oma said to Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, Adoni and Elohai! [TEHILLIM 35:23]
Joh 20:29 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to him, Because you have seen Me, you have emunah (faith)?
OJB.

Καὶ ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ὁ Κύριός μου.....Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular.... καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

Note the two Definite Articles

My Lord and my God (Hο κυριος μου κα ο θεος μου). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

And so I believe..why don't people accept what stands written, Perfect Tense, and believe?

100 NAMES OF JESUS


J.

 

[Johann]

Sorry @Pearl & @Goldie75 if I was rude. I have trouble debating with my mental illness. I think I'll back out now.

Noted
J.

 

[Webers_Home]

.
Most Christians readily attest that Christ is fully God and fully Man when in
reality quite a few trinitarians only believe he is some sort of divine hominid
rather than a real man; and that's because no real man is divine; not when he's
Adam's biological progeny: a non-eternal, created being.
_

 

[Johann]

Him, that is the reason He authored the Bible, don't you think?

Then why do you "reason" Thomas'confession away?
J.

 

[Johann]

He was of the seed of Abraham, tribe of Judah.

The last Adam was.

He was of the seed of Abraham, tribe of Judah.

Also...

Heb 10:5 Therefore, when he comes into the Olam Hazeh, he says "ZEVACH UMINCHAH LO CHAFATZTA ("sacrifice and offering" Ps 40:7 (6) You did not desire but a body you prepared for me; (Ps 39:7 TARGUM HA-SHIVIM)
OJB.

Heb 10:5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me;
Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Aorist<..Where was Christ Jesus before the Aorist?..the "point of beginning?"
Voice: Middle<
Mood: Indicative<
Person: second [you]
Number: Singular



But a body hast thou prepared me; or "fitted for me"; a real natural body, which stands for the whole human nature; and is carefully expressed, to show that the human nature is not a person. This was prepared, in the book of God's purposes and decrees, and in the council and covenant of grace; and was curiously formed by the Holy Ghost in time, for the second Person, the Son of God, to clothe himself with, as the Syriac version renders it, "thou hast clothed me with a body"; and that he might dwell in, and in it do the will of God, and perform the work of man's redemption: in Psa_40:6 it is, "mine ears thou hast opened"; digged or bored, the ear being put for the whole body; for if he had not had a body prepared, he could not have had ears opened: besides; the phrase is expressive of Christ's assuming the form of a servant, which was done by his being found in fashion as a man, Php_2:7 and of his being a voluntary servant, and of his cheerful obedience as such, the opening, or boring of the ear, was a sign, Exo_21:5. And thus by having a true body prepared for him, and a willing mind to offer it up, he became fit for sacrifice.
Gill.

J.

 

[Johann]

May I honestly ask Joe, and I do recognize your sincerity my friend, what hope do you have since you have to acknowledge that if Jesus is God he lied at Mk 10:40 and 13:32?

Why did you doubt? (Matthew 14:31)

Do you still not understand? (Matthew 16:9)
Who do people say the Son of Man is? (Matthew 16:13)

Who do you say I am? (Matthew 16:15)

J.

 

[marks]

@Johann @farouk @marks @Pearl one question on Isaiah 9:6 for now

The orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one Essence in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the everlasting Father.” How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son?

I don't know enough about Hebrew to know this for myself, however, I've been told that this can also be understood as "father of the eternal", do you know anything about that?

But that's the question for you too! How can Jesus be both Father and Son? For unto us a child is born, unto us Son is given, and His Name shall be called . . . the everlasting Father . . .

The Son is in fact here called the Father, if this translation is faithful to the original writer, so, how can that be?

He who has seen me has seen the Father, declared the Son.

How is it that Isaiah declares the Word of God that there is one savior, YHWH, and none other, yet we read that there is One Name given by which men must be saved, Jesus.

YHWH - the LORD - declared to Isaiah that ever knee would bow to Him, salvation in Him alone, as Paul wrote that every knee would bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord - should that read, that Jesus Christ is LORD? Yes, I think so!

I mean seriously! What was Paul thinking? Quoting that passage, and applying it to Jesus, that Jesus Christ is LORD, can you imagine him writing those words if that were NOT what he meant? Don't you think he would have considered it blasphemy? Just like the Pharisees who wanted to stone Jesus. Not for any good work, but because you, a man, make yourself out to be God!!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Not hard really.

Isaiah 8:17-18 quoted in Hebrews 2:13.

If Yahweh gives us, His Children to His beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, what does Jesus become?

Notice his position as Father was given on the basis of his obedience to God - i.e a reward i.e something Jesus did not have before he existed!!!!

Sorry @APAK I see you didnt attention that to me oops.

In short, he cannot be as trinitarian doctrine pronounces.

Are you thinking of us as "born from Jesus", therefore His children? Just wanting to clarify that, thanks!

Much love!

 

[marks]

The last Adam was.

He was of the seed of Abraham, tribe of Judah.

I thought you said Mary's ovum but not man's sperm, wasn't that right?

And if Jesus came from the human line already on the earth, in what way would He be a "last Adam"? He'd be one of Adam's progeny, part of the corrupted humanity.

Do you think of humanity as a collection of individuals, separate, each springing out of the last, or as a single creation which unfolds over the generations?

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

@Johann @farouk @marks @Pearl one question on Isaiah 9:6 for now

The orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity holds that God is one Essence in three Persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. However, Isaiah 9:6 calls the Messiah “the everlasting Father.” How can Jesus be both the Father and the Son?

He is Almighty God - he can do the impossible. He can be Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the same way as we are made in his image and we all have three parts to our own make up - body, mind and spirit. My body is not mt spirit. My mind is not my body. My spirit is not my mind etc. but they are all me.

 

[marks]

Can you see how the Scriptures are being "philosophized" away by the reasoning of fallible man @Truther?


Joh 20:28 In reply, T'oma said to Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach, Adoni and Elohai! [TEHILLIM 35:23]
Joh 20:29 And Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to him, Because you have seen Me, you have emunah (faith)?
OJB.

Καὶ ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Θωμᾶς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ, Ὁ Κύριός μου.....Personal / Possessive Pronoun - Genitive 1st Person Singular.... καὶ ὁ Θεός μου.

Note the two Definite Articles

My Lord and my God (Hο κυριος μου κα ο θεος μου). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the Koine. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.

And so I believe..why don't people accept what stands written, Perfect Tense, and believe?

100 NAMES OF JESUS


J.

To me, this is such a straightforward passage, and to pass it off as nothing more than "OMG!", in the modern parlance, I find completely unsupportable, in John's manner of writing, the Jew's manner of speaking, their general overall reverence for God. This is something a schoolgirl in the Valley says, or to hype some elite on Yahoo, this is not the speech of the disciple to the risen Christ.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

Sorry @Pearl & @Goldie75 if I was rude. I have trouble debating with my mental illness. I think I'll back out now.

Thanks @devin553344 I didn't notice any rudeness - and if i did I've forgotten it.

 

[marks]

The more we discuss Trinity, the more I see Him indelibly stamped throughout the Bible. YHWH incarnated to be called Jesus. We are saved by the Creator Himself, in the grandest romantic gesture of all!

Much love!

 

[marks]

.
Most Christians readily attest that Christ is fully God and fully Man when in
reality quite a few trinitarians only believe he is some sort of divine hominid
rather than a real man; and that's because no real man is divine; not when he's
Adam's biological progeny: a non-eternal, created being.
_

Therefore the Last Adam, a new humanity. Not part of Adam's progeny. Uncorrupted, and as He is God Himself, incorruptible, fully man, and truly fully God.

Much love!

 

[farouk]

It's this last part you quoted, "who was made a little lower than the angels", this is is not gennao, to become, beget, be generated, like that, it's "to be diminished", to be made lesser than you were.

Jesus was diminished to be less than the angels, to taste death on our behalf, to be made better than the angels.

Until the Messenger of YHWH was given a body, He had not been begotten, but God prepared a body for Him, the last Adam, placed into Mary, to be born into humanity.

I don't know how anyone could do a serious study through Hebrews with a completely open mind and not walk away Knowing that Jesus was no mere man, not even an "elevated" man, but is God Himself. Not to mention when you look at everything written in the OT of YHWH.

No man has seen God at any time, but the Son has made Him known.

YHWH met with Abraham. YHWH spoke with Moses face to face. YHWH dined with the elders of Israel. "I have seen the King, YHWH of armies!", from Isaiah. YHWH shall stand upon the mount of Olives. YHWH will in the latter days stand upon the earth, and Job will see Him with his own eyes. YHWH is the one and only Savior. Immanuel, God with us.

Much love!

@marks Scriptural evidence for the Deity of Christ is overwhelming.

 

[Johann]

Your point is very true Devin, again the Bible really doesn't use the term inferior/inferior, however Jesus did say that the Father was greater than he. Being someone's head in authority does not make one superior to the individual. Superiority is not really to be a trait among us, remember Jesus' words:


Thomas was an apostle Devin, he knew who God was. Many versions add an exclamation point to that verse, as many have exclaimed my God when something shocking comes to their attention. It was the context, Thomas was not declaring Jesus to be God, but for the first time realized the man in their midst was actually Jesus living right in front of them. It would be a shock to anyone.

More Info:
*** it-2 pp. 55-56 Jesus Christ ***
What did Thomas mean when he said to Jesus, “My Lord and my God”?
On the occasion of Jesus’ appearance to Thomas and the other apostles, which had removed Thomas’ doubts of Jesus’ resurrection, the now-convinced Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: “My Lord and my God! [literally, “The Lord of me and the God (ho The·osʹ) of me!”].” (Joh 20:24-29) Some scholars have viewed this expression as an exclamation of astonishment spoken to Jesus but actually directed to God, his Father. However, others claim the original Greek requires that the words be viewed as being directed to Jesus. Even if this is so, the expression “My Lord and my God” would still have to harmonize with the rest of the inspired Scriptures. Since the record shows that Jesus had previously sent his disciples the message, “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God,” there is no reason for believing that Thomas thought Jesus was the Almighty God. (Joh 20:17) John himself, after recounting Thomas’ encounter with the resurrected Jesus, says of this and similar accounts: “But these have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and that, because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.”—Joh 20:30, 31.

So, Thomas may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in the sense of Jesus’ being “a god” though not the Almighty God, not “the only true God,” to whom Thomas had often heard Jesus pray. (Joh 17:1-3) Or he may have addressed Jesus as “my God” in a way similar to expressions made by his forefathers, recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures, with which Thomas was familiar. On various occasions when individuals were visited or addressed by an angelic messenger of Jehovah, the individuals, or at times the Bible writer setting out the account, responded to or spoke of that angelic messenger as though he were Jehovah God. (Compare Ge 16:7-11, 13; 18:1-5, 22-33; 32:24-30; Jg 6:11-15; 13:20-22.) This was because the angelic messenger was acting for Jehovah as his representative, speaking in his name, perhaps using the first person singular pronoun, and even saying, “I am the true God.” (Ge 31:11-13; Jg 2:1-5) Thomas may therefore have spoken to Jesus as “my God” in this sense, acknowledging or confessing Jesus as the representative and spokesman of the true God. Whatever the case, it is certain that Thomas’ words do not contradict the clear statement he himself had heard Jesus make, namely, “The Father is greater than I am.”—Joh 14:28.

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

“The Father is greater than I am.”

Do you understand Robert?
J.

 

[farouk]

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

“The Father is greater than I am.”

Do you understand Robert?
J.

@Johann Important passage; the Lord Jesus truly is equal with God.