For those who think Christ is not God.

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Is Christ God?

  • God

    Votes: 31 77.5%
  • Lesser than God

    Votes: 7 17.5%
  • A mere Son/Man of God.

    Votes: 2 5.0%

  • Total voters
    40

marks

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You picked "God was manifest INTO flesh?"
Why do so many insist on changing my words into something I did not say?

I said, the Word became flesh. i prefer to stay with Biblical language were something is directly addressed.

Rewording things can get us into trouble if it's not done correctly, as we have seen. I think our thoughts become better ordered when we use God's Word itself to order our thoughts.

Much love!
 
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Truther

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Why do so many insist on changing my words into something I did not say?

I said, the Word became flesh. i prefer to stay with Biblical language were something is directly addressed.

Rewording things can get us into trouble if it's not done correctly, as we have seen. I think our thoughts become better ordered when we use God's Word itself to order our thoughts.

Much love!
Look, if you say "God became flesh" then you mean God was manifest INTO flesh.

Do we need to hire a lawyer to figure out your words?

Really, you think God turned into a human, yet remained God somehow.

How do I know?

I used to teach the same stuff.
 

marks

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Really, you think God turned into a human,
No, that's not what I think.

We're really not hitting any kind of a stride in this conversation, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels, and that's not really interesting to me.

Much love!
 

Johann

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I guess this is your way of asking me why I believe John 17:5 has an important figurative expression used by others of that time and before. We must use and understand scripture IF WE were in their time and culture else we get it all wrong.

And later this expression as many others were misused/misapplied to support the pagan pre-existent doctrine of Yahshua as part of the mother Trinity doctrine.

And of course as you said, yes, to all those trailing questions at the end of your post eventhough they are not directly part of the question and inquiry I posed.

-------------------------------------

In verse 5, Jesus spoke to his Father about his last work yet to be completed, on the cross. He wants his Father to give him glory from his death on the cross by raising him up to immortality and eternal life, and bring others also to this eternal life, and therefore be with his Father, both together in glory, promised and planned for him before the world was made. The creation of Jesus’ spirit and body and his works was part of the plan of God from the beginning; to bring glory to himself and his Son, together, in heaven. For Christ to be the instrument whereby all true believers shall also gain eternal life and immortality.

There are many who view verse 5 from a quite different perspective. The Trinitarians especially share a novel view. These and others rationalize from their own imaginations and not from scripture, that Christ was saying to his Father to give him back a literal glory of being immortal again, or divinity he once possessed with his Father before the world began. It really ‘hangs out there’ as a ‘sore thumb’ with no scriptural thought or plan from God and with complete disregard for its surrounding context.

It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence of Christ into this verse rather than a figurative existence of him, only in the mind of God, the Father of all.

Here are the reasons why their literal view cannot be true - it is figurative.

1. These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.

The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).

The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.

2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer aswell.

3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.


4. In verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.

(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me. For You loved me from before the foundation of the world.


3. If we share the glory of immortality with Christ, they why did Paul also write in similar language as John here and say we were given this glory before the foundations of the world. Sounds like a match in expression and purpose, a twin to what is said in verse 5 here; that the immortality or glory of Christ was before the foundations of the world.

(2Ti 1:9) Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal;

It means that Jesus had to be glorified to immortality first, for the first time, in order to give us his spirit and also become immortal, in the future. There is no other way to read this verse and John 17:5b. They have the same thought.

(Joh 17:22) And the glory which You have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.



John 17:5b is figurative expression marks. Christ knew of the Father's plan for him and he knew he was about to gain glory at the Cross and afterwards for the FIRST time, amen. As a human man though he felt deep emotional and mental anguish, he wept and cried in fear for his life and even asked his Father he really did not want to die. He still persisted though in executing his Father's plan out of faith and love for his Father and his fellow mankind.

You are boldly propagating
Gnosticism!


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You appear to be denying the fact that Jesus came in the flesh! In a literal sense man..

This is to be taken in a LITERAL sense, NOT figurative...see you tomorrow.
J.
 

marks

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I guess this is your way of asking me why I believe John 17:5 has an important figurative expression used by others of that time and before. We must use and understand scripture IF WE were in their time and culture else we get it all wrong.

And later this expression as many others were misused/misapplied to support the pagan pre-existent doctrine of Yahshua as part of the mother Trinity doctrine.

And of course as you said, yes, to all those trailing questions at the end of your post eventhough they are not directly part of the question and inquiry I posed.

-------------------------------------

In verse 5, Jesus spoke to his Father about his last work yet to be completed, on the cross. He wants his Father to give him glory from his death on the cross by raising him up to immortality and eternal life, and bring others also to this eternal life, and therefore be with his Father, both together in glory, promised and planned for him before the world was made. The creation of Jesus’ spirit and body and his works was part of the plan of God from the beginning; to bring glory to himself and his Son, together, in heaven. For Christ to be the instrument whereby all true believers shall also gain eternal life and immortality.

There are many who view verse 5 from a quite different perspective. The Trinitarians especially share a novel view. These and others rationalize from their own imaginations and not from scripture, that Christ was saying to his Father to give him back a literal glory of being immortal again, or divinity he once possessed with his Father before the world began. It really ‘hangs out there’ as a ‘sore thumb’ with no scriptural thought or plan from God and with complete disregard for its surrounding context.

It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence of Christ into this verse rather than a figurative existence of him, only in the mind of God, the Father of all.

Here are the reasons why their literal view cannot be true - it is figurative.

1. These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.

The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).

The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.

2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer aswell.

3. Later in verse 22 we see that Jesus is desiring his Father to give the same glory, give immortality, even to all true believers as himself in the future. We know this to be true. If Jesus pre-existed in immortality and even with a divine nature apart from his Father, then did all true believers have the same immortality and even divine nature in the past? Or, shall they in the future, share in the same glory as Christ?! As already pointed out, scripture says that Jesus did acquire immortality for the first time, and all believers shall be immortal in the future as Christ. All shall share in the divinity of the God the Father (2 Peter 1:4). None have or own a divine nature except the Father. There is only one divine being and it is God Almighty, the Father of all that believe in his existence and presence within their lives, including Christ, our Lord.


4. In verse 24 Jesus prays to his Father as if this glory of immortality is given to him for the first time after his death on the cross. His Father loved him from ancient times before Jesus actually went to the cross and received this glory of immortality for the first time. It is clear though that the Father gave Jesus immortality and thus Jesus cannot be God the Father himself, as that would disregard scripture completely.

(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also whom You have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which You have given me. For You loved me from before the foundation of the world.


3. If we share the glory of immortality with Christ, they why did Paul also write in similar language as John here and say we were given this glory before the foundations of the world. Sounds like a match in expression and purpose, a twin to what is said in verse 5 here; that the immortality or glory of Christ was before the foundations of the world.

(2Ti 1:9) Who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before times eternal;

It means that Jesus had to be glorified to immortality first, for the first time, in order to give us his spirit and also become immortal, in the future. There is no other way to read this verse and John 17:5b. They have the same thought.

(Joh 17:22) And the glory which You have given me, I have given to them, that they may be one, even as we are one.



John 17:5b is figurative expression marks. Christ knew of the Father's plan for him and he knew he was about to gain glory at the Cross and afterwards for the FIRST time, amen. As a human man though he felt deep emotional and mental anguish, he wept and cried in fear for his life and even asked his Father he really did not want to die. He still persisted though in executing his Father's plan out of faith and love for his Father and his fellow mankind.
I've read through this.

There are a lot of passages of which you don't appear to believe the plain sense.

I think you have made a number of mistakes here. Do you want to continue?

Much love!
 

marks

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I used to teach the same stuff.
You apparently did not teach the things I think about this. If you are thinking my ideas are lockstep to what yours were, I think that is mistaken. If what you are doing is reimagining my posts to read as you used to think, and responding to that, well, maybe that helps me understand some of your posts.

Much love!
 

APAK

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APAK, Jesus was speaking from what He knows, and lives, and He knows good and well the glory He shared with His Father before the world was.

I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone, the question no one ever wants to answer!

Were Jesus actually wanting to express to His Father that He desired the Father once again glorify Him with the glory He had with His Father before the world was, how would He have to say it so that you'd believe it?

Much love!

marks, you want a question answered where you have John 17:5b as a literal expression. This is not a modern expression that you can apply here or read into it. There is no basis in this scripture for again, of a second glory for Christ, as the first being when you believe he pre-existent as a being. You cannot get all this just by pulling out and reading half a verse. I cannot do it anyway. You have to find other scripture that can support such a claim for starters. And then apply the context here with others that speak to the glory of Christ as I did in that commentary I posted to you. I did find other scripture where the usage/intent of John 17:5b was in other scripture etc.

And to your question as to how Christ would have to say it so that I would believe in a second glorification,,,and then maybe marks...,I also answered that in that same post of mine....see the other expressions he could have used to say what you believe, and he chose not to, on purpose...

Sorry I cannot answer a question you just made up that has no shred of corroborating supporting data, even circumstantial or implicit in nature. I'm sure there are many that believe as you do that tell you why they think the same.

Read that commentary whether you agree with it or not.
 

APAK

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You are boldly propagating
Gnosticism!


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

You appear to be denying the fact that Jesus came in the flesh! In a literal sense man..

This is to be taken in a LITERAL sense, NOT figurative...see you tomorrow.
J.
Do you know what Gnosticism is all about Johann? You are making a joke right?
If you can prove any of what I said has an ounce of Gnosticism in it I will get your address and mail a cheque of 1000 ZAR (Rand) to you in South Africa. That's how confident I am there is none.

You are getting funny now Johann...and boldly at that...wow..lol;)

I see you then you go to your 1 John 4:2-3 for cover and security...lol
 

APAK

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No, Jesus was not the "spiritual seed" of Abraham, but physical.

He was of Judah too.

We are the "spiritual seed" of Jesus.
Good luck with that thinking.

I will only go as far as saying that Christ was as a descent of Judah through Mary and then this is only significant and is counted as the physical seed of Israel (as a promise of Abraham for a temporary purpose) of those who were credited with righteousness under the Law. Christ is still the spiritual seed of the promise of Abraham else we today could not have his spirit...he became a quickening spirit for us.

Romans 8
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you. (NIV)

Bless you as we both search with the spirit of truth for answers
 

marks

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marks, you want a question answered where you have John 17:5b as a literal expression.
Yes, I endlessly wonder, those things God says plainly, that people don't accept, what would He have to say? It's rhetorical, really, because at that point, I don't think there may be anything that can be said. "No, really, this is a really glory, like, what you think of when I say "Glory", and, it was really really actually shared with the Father, like not just as some idea of something that's going to happen 5000 years from now, but actually before all that, . . ."

What would God have to say for you to believe?
Because it really does say to me that you reject the interpretation not as an exegetical matter, but because you reject the conclusions you come to.

Here is another one of those:

Philippians 2:6-9 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He humbled himself - what was He before, Glorious?
He became obedient - what was He before, Sovereign?
He "took upon Him" the form of a servant. What was He before, LORD?

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Much love!
 
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TLHKAJ

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Before you get blasted TLHKAJ...it is the Huios/Son of God..
Shalom
J.
I've been in and out (mostly out) tending to family the last few days, lots of driving. Would you kind explaining if I missed something?
 

APAK

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Yes, I endlessly wonder, those things God says plainly, that people don't accept, what would He have to say? It's rhetorical, really, because at that point, I don't think there may be anything that can be said. "No, really, this is a really glory, like, what you think of when I say "Glory", and, it was really really actually shared with the Father, like not just as some idea of something that's going to happen 5000 years from now, but actually before all that, . . ."

What would God have to say for you to believe?
Because it really does say to me that you reject the interpretation not as an exegetical matter, but because you reject the conclusions you come to.

Here is another one of those:

Philippians 2:6-9 KJV
6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

He humbled himself - what was He before, Glorious?
He became obedient - what was He before, Sovereign?
He "took upon Him" the form of a servant. What was He before, LORD?

Philippians 2:10-11 KJV
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Much love!
We are beginning to circle back I believe and I do not want to repeat what I've already said. This discussion is already going nowhere I'm afraid.

The thing is again marks, this verse is not plain to be taken at face-value as you keep saying. It is not. I have showed you why already. It is an OLD expression (idiom) as many of these idioms are in scripture. You cannot apply a modern view to its understanding as if it is plain text. If you cannot or do want to grasp this fact then you will always think this verse says two glorifications instead of one glorification of Christ he was going to have with his Father at the Cross and afterwards. This was part of the Father's plan and Christ already knew of it and this is why he trusted his Father and kept the faith. He never cited a pre-existent glorification. The context would not fit. You are biased because you want to lay into this verse that Christ was God the Son or something like this. You are biased and you cannot see this fact.

And I am never disagreeing with you that the Son did (since circa 33 AD) and is in actual and real Glory with his Father today. The Father shares his glory with his Son, of the glory he gave him as scripture clearly states as in John 17 and other places, and not vis versa.

Well I believe if you have no other questions then I'm done here marks

If you want to now move to Philippians 2 remember back, maybe a few years back, I've answered this one before as well. I will address it as long as you know this is a completely different view of the nature of the Son of God compared to this current topic view of a single glorification after the Son was born. And I know you disagree with my last few words.

And you have now superimposed this John 17 view of Christ we have already discussed, with some of it elements, into this new one you want to analyze of the quite different Phil 2 view. Oh well, what joy you bring....I being sarcastic marks....all good!

Bye for now
 

Johann

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I've been in and out (mostly out) tending to family the last few days, lots of driving. Would you kind explaining if I missed something?

Some member was upset (don't know why) by you saying "God the Son" and not the Son of God...petty,silly remarks.
Shalom to you and family dear brother in Christ.
J.
 
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marks

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1. These same people of a verse 5b literal expression belief, also believe that Jesus was actually in heaven before he became a human being, from a glorified state, even as God Almighty himself. And some also believe, he became into a humble human state as in some type of transformation or incarnation. As a god-man dual natured creature! They use other scripture for their support although they choose to mischaracterize these aswell. For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him. Jesus thus sacrificed and yielded his own human spirit and will, and physical body, over to his Father, nothing more. Nothing is said or meant to mean Jesus or his Father coming down for heaven and intentionally laying aside his so-called previous immortality or divine nature. Jesus was an example to all of his followers of a human servant for his God and Father.

For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him.

Philippians 2:7-11 KJV
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Maybe you saw my earlier post. Jesus took upon Him the form of a servant. It sounds like you are thinking Jesus was created a servant. But He "took on the form" of a servant. He "became obedient". Do you see the progressions contained in those words?

He "became" obedient. That means He was something that was not "obedient" before He "became" obedient. As I see it, you have two options to choose from, either He was disobedient, and then became obedient, or He was sovereign, and became obedient. I think its the latter.

Much love!
 
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marks

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The Father says he gave Yahshua immortality after his death on the cross and not or never before that time, since his birth (see John 5:26 Jesus never had eternal life before he was born. It was granted (as part of the plan) by the Father in his human life).

The Father had no actual created Son, except in his mind, before his spirit was created and born in Bethlehem. God never said he had a Son in scripture until that time. Yes he did point to his Son in the OT is a few areas under other labels and expressions. The Father gave his Son life in himself or immortality after his resurrection; meaning Jesus was called the Son of God only since his birth as a human being because he never existed before in any type of reality or previous life.

John 5:26 KJV
26) For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

This is before His resurrection.

John 5:21 KJV
21) For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John 10:17-18 KJV
17) Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18) No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Even so . . .

Jesus has the same power over life and death as the Father, both before and after His resurrection.

Much love!
 
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Johann

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For example, they use Philippians 2:7 to say that Jesus or even his Father came down from heaven and incarnated himself into a humble human being. This scripture is only referring to Jesus has having his Father’s spirit and mind indwelt in him.

Philippians 2:7-11 KJV
7) But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8) And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9) Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Maybe you saw my earlier post. Jesus took upon Him the form of a servant. It sounds like you are thinking Jesus was created a servant. But He "took on the form" of a servant. He "became obedient". Do you see the progressions contained in those words?

He "became" obedient. That means He was something that was not "obedient" before He "became" obedient. As I see it, you have two options to choose from, either He was disobedient, and then became obedient, or He was sovereign, and became obedient. I think its the latter.

Much love!


1Jn 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Correct marks, but he's going a step further..as you may have noticed.
J.
 

marks

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2. Now if Jesus was actually saying, give me my immortality and even my own divine nature back, then why in verse 5 did Jesus not say, “before when I was” or “came down from heaven,” instead of “before the world was created” as it is in verse 5? These two expressions or figurative idioms would be more accurate and current although it would still not be true since Jesus was not speaking of a previous life of his own. He was referring to the Father’s plan of a previous ancient time, he planned for his Son and even for his followers and believers of today. This plan did not just include his Son, it included a modern-day true believer aswell.

Not real, just imagined. I just don't find that argument convincing.

"Before the world existed", how clear a time statement do you want? But alas, I'm repeating myself over and over now.

Much love!
 
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