For those who think Christ is not God.

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Why not? Would not the life that the Son received from His Father be the Father's life... Therefore eternal and naturally of the same essence as His Father's? Now, as I said before, I don't discuss the nature of God. So the above is as far as I go. Like begets like. That was God's way from the beginning. We beget like, because we were created in the image of God. I can't explain how the Son was begotten. I simply accept that He was, He was not created, adopted, but begotten in the express image of His unbegotten Father.

I'm not going to believe that God was brought into existence. God has always been in existence. The True God isn't Begotten. I believe God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence, that he begot his Only Begotten Son but his Son was begotten long before humanity even existed.
Also when you speak about the Only Begotten Son of God being in the essence with his Father I don't believe you're talking about something that's biblical but instead about something that came from the philosophy of men. The scriptures tell us not to listen to the philosophy of men.

 

[Brakelite]

Brakelite said:
There are statements such as the above, and below, that I like, although in order to fully endorse them I would need to know what precisely you mean by "like those", and "sin prone nature". You see, I agree that Christy had to be fully human in order to die, and in order to know what it is like experientially to resist sin that He might "succor them that are tempted". But to go so far as to claim He had sinful propensities... That is habit formed idiosyncracies that lead to sin... Is a stretch too far.[/QUOTE\]

YHWH God sent his Only Begotten Son in the likeness of the first human Adam. The True God YHWH created the first man Adam sinless. That means the first man Adam wasn't prone to sin or had a sinful nature. God created the first man Adam with the ability to make free moral choices. God sent his Only Begotten Son to mankind as a sinless 100% human who wasn't prone to sin just as the first Adam was. The Only Begotten Son of God when God sent him to mankind had the ability to make free moral choices just as the first Adam did. The last Adam Jesus Christ showed that because God created the first Adam sinless with the ability to make free moral choices the first Adam could have consistently chosen to be obedient to the True God YHWH just as the last Adam Jesus Christ did.

KJV Romans 8:3
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

KJV Romans 8:4
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

 

[Johann]

I look at it this way. The Son a had a beginning in personality, but not in nature.

When did the Son had a beginning 2Aorist Brakelit since the Son always/haya existed?


Strong's #1961: AHLB#1097-M (V)

1097) Ee% (Ee% HH) ac: Breathe co: Breath ab: Exist: The pictograph e represents one who is looking at a great sight with his hands raised and taking a long breath. The pictograph e represents one who is looking at a great sight with his hands raised and taking a long breath.


V) Ee% (Efe% HWH) — Exist: To exist or have breath. That which exists has breath. In Hebrew thought the breath is the character of someone or something. Just as a man has character, so do objects. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [ar: awh] [freq. 75] (vf: Paal) |kjv: be, hath, was| H1933*, H1934*
M) Eie% (Eie% HYH) ac: Exist co: Breath ab: ?
V) Eie% (Eie% HYH) — Exist: To exist or have breath. That which exists has breath. In Hebrew thought the breath is the character of someone or something. Just as a man has character, so do objects. [A generic verb with a wide application meaning to exist or be] [freq. 74] (vf: Paal, Niphal) |kjv: was, come to pass, came, been, happened, become, pertained, better for thee| H1961*
AHLB

The same (ουτος). "This one," the Logos of verse 1, repeated for clarity, characteristic of John's style. He links together into one phrase two of the ideas already stated separately, "in the beginning he was with God," "afterwards in time he came to be with man" (Marcus Dods). Thus John clearly states of the Logos Pre-existence before Incarnation, Personality, Deity.
Thanks
J.


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Imperfect
Voice: no voice stated
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

J.

 

[Waiting on him]

That verse has nothing to do with one's foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
[11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

This foundation was laid at Calvary.

 

[RedFan]

I'm not going to believe that God was brought into existence. God has always been in existence. The True God isn't Begotten. I believe God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence, that he begot his Only Begotten Son but his Son was begotten long before humanity even existed.

Do you say that "begotten" entails "created"?

 

[Johann]

Also when you speak about the Only Begotten Barney, it is your preogative to believe, or not to believeSon of God being in the essence with his Father I don't believe you're talking about something that's biblical but instead about something that came from the philosophy of men.

Too bad

YHWH God sent his Only Begotten Son i

The Son a had a beginning in personality, but not in nature.

Found this..@Brakelite


Meaning of Only Begotten Son
The Greek word for “only begotten” in John 3:16 is monogenes. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words, monos meaning “only” and kenos meaning “kind or race.” If we combine these words together, we have “only kind” or “unique.” That is, Jesus is the only begotten Son.

An example that helps us understand the meaning of monogenes is found in Hebrews 11:17-18.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” Hebrews 11:17-18 (NASB)

In order to understand the meaning of “only begotten Son” in this verse, it is important to remember that Abraham had eight sons: Ishmael (Genesis 16:15), Issac (Genesis 21:3) and the six other sons by Keturah who were: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (Genesis 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham’s first born son. He was Abraham’s special son (Genesis 17:19). He was the son God promised to Abraham and Sarah and the son for whom God had special plans.

Next notice that Isaac is called “only begotten” in Hebrews 11:17-18. Now was Abraham’s only son Isaac? No! Abraham had eight sons. This helps us understand that the Greek monogenes word has been mistranslated and, consequently, misunderstood. Monogenes does not mean Jesus was born. The Greek word monogenes means “unique” or “one and only.” Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV’s wording,

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NIV)

Was Jesus Created?
Since monogenes means “unique one,” we should understand John 3:16 to mean that Jesus was not created. He was the unique Son of God the Father. Monogenes does not refer to birth, being conceived, or created. The message of Scripture is that Jesus has been God and will continue to be God eternally. Jesus is God. Yet within the trinity, God the Father declared the second person of the Trinity to be called the Son when He took on human flesh in order to become our Savior. For more information visit “What is the meaning that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Conclusion:
Jesus is the one and only Son of God. He was not created and He was not made. Since the expression “Son of God” was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One!

Only begotten Son — Does only begotten Son mean Jesus was created?-it-says-jesus-is-the-only-begotten-son-2/

 

[Brakelite]

When did the Son had a beginning 2Aorist Brakelit since the Son always/haya existed?


Strong's #1961: AHLB#1097-M (V)

1097) Ee% (Ee% HH) ac: Breathe co: Breath ab: Exist: The pictograph e represents one who is looking at a great sight with his hands raised and taking a long breath. The pictograph e represents one who is looking at a great sight with his hands raised and taking a long breath.


V) Ee% (Efe% HWH) — Exist: To exist or have breath. That which exists has breath. In Hebrew thought the breath is the character of someone or something. Just as a man has character, so do objects. [Hebrew and Aramaic] [ar: awh] [freq. 75] (vf: Paal) |kjv: be, hath, was| H1933*, H1934*
M) Eie% (Eie% HYH) ac: Exist co: Breath ab: ?
V) Eie% (Eie% HYH) — Exist: To exist or have breath. That which exists has breath. In Hebrew thought the breath is the character of someone or something. Just as a man has character, so do objects. [A generic verb with a wide application meaning to exist or be] [freq. 74] (vf: Paal, Niphal) |kjv: was, come to pass, came, been, happened, become, pertained, better for thee| H1961*
AHLB

The same (ουτος). "This one," the Logos of verse 1, repeated for clarity, characteristic of John's style. He links together into one phrase two of the ideas already stated separately, "in the beginning he was with God," "afterwards in time he came to be with man" (Marcus Dods). Thus John clearly states of the Logos Pre-existence before Incarnation, Personality, Deity.
Thanks
J.


Part of Speech: Verb
Tense: Imperfect
Voice: no voice stated
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

J.

If Christ as an individual eternally existed, then the whole Father/Son motif becomes nothing more than a metaphor. The Father/Son relationship is merely a show. Play acting. The trinity depicts 3 co-equal co-eternal beings, all exactly the same. Any one of then could have chosen to be the father, and the other the son.
I believe God made man in his image. With real literal offspring just as He had. The mechanics would be different obviously, but surely begotten means a beginning. It does in every other instant the word is used.

 

[Johann]

Do you say that "begotten" entails "created"?

That's exactly what he is saying @RedFan, can you give us the correct meaning of monogenes?
Thanks
J.

 

[RedFan]

That's exactly what he is saying @RedFan, can you give us the correct meaning of monogenes?
Thanks
J.

Nope. My Greek is not great.

 

[Johann]

The mechanics would be different obviously, but surely begotten means a beginning. It does in every other instant the word is used.

No, monogones don't mean beginning @Brakelite, did you read the "Us" in Genesis?
As I read Scripture I can clearly see the preexistence (Imperfect Tense) of the sole, unique Huios of YHVH..the majority on this forum cannot seem to grasp this.
J.

 

[Johann]

No, monogones does not mean beginning @Brakelite, did you read the "Us" in Genesis?
As I read Scripture I can clearly see the preexistence (Imperfect Tense) of the sole, unique Huios of YHVH..the majority on this forum cannot seem to grasp this.
J.

Unless this is established, all other doctrines are on a shaky foundation.
J.

 

[Johann]

Nope. My Greek is not great.

Begotten=Sole, Unique.
J.

 

[RedFan]

“Ah. The Son can be begotten, but not created; is that it, bishop?”

“Precisely, my lord. In the Greek, the distinction is between gennetos, which means ‘begotten’ or ‘generated,’ and genetos, which signifies ‘having come into existence.’ The Father alone is unbegotten and ingenerate, but neither the Father nor the Son ‘came into existence,’ for both are eternal.”

 

[Johann]

Too bad



Found this..@Brakelite


Meaning of Only Begotten Son
The Greek word for “only begotten” in John 3:16 is monogenes. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words, monos meaning “only” and kenos meaning “kind or race.” If we combine these words together, we have “only kind” or “unique.” That is, Jesus is the only begotten Son.

An example that helps us understand the meaning of monogenes is found in Hebrews 11:17-18.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” Hebrews 11:17-18 (NASB)

In order to understand the meaning of “only begotten Son” in this verse, it is important to remember that Abraham had eight sons: Ishmael (Genesis 16:15), Issac (Genesis 21:3) and the six other sons by Keturah who were: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (Genesis 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham’s first born son. He was Abraham’s special son (Genesis 17:19). He was the son God promised to Abraham and Sarah and the son for whom God had special plans.

Next notice that Isaac is called “only begotten” in Hebrews 11:17-18. Now was Abraham’s only son Isaac? No! Abraham had eight sons. This helps us understand that the Greek monogenes word has been mistranslated and, consequently, misunderstood. Monogenes does not mean Jesus was born. The Greek word monogenes means “unique” or “one and only.” Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV’s wording,

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NIV)

Was Jesus Created?
Since monogenes means “unique one,” we should understand John 3:16 to mean that Jesus was not created. He was the unique Son of God the Father. Monogenes does not refer to birth, being conceived, or created. The message of Scripture is that Jesus has been God and will continue to be God eternally. Jesus is God. Yet within the trinity, God the Father declared the second person of the Trinity to be called the Son when He took on human flesh in order to become our Savior. For more information visit “What is the meaning that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Conclusion:
Jesus is the one and only Son of God. He was not created and He was not made. Since the expression “Son of God” was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One!

Only begotten Son — Does only begotten Son mean Jesus was created?-it-says-jesus-is-the-only-begotten-son-2/

This is SO clear
J.

 

[Johann]

If Christ as an individual eternally existed, then the whole Father/Son motif becomes nothing more than a metaphor

Really sorry to read this, you need to read the Old Covenant
J.

 

[Johann]

“Ah. The Son can be begotten, but not created; is that it, bishop?”

“Precisely, my lord. In the Greek, the distinction is between gennetos, which means ‘begotten’ or ‘generated,’ and genetos, which signifies ‘having come into existence.’ The Father alone is unbegotten and ingenerate, but neither the Father nor the Son ‘came into existence,’ for both are eternal.”

Christ Jesus along with the Father along with the Holy Spirit is the Creator..
J.

 

[face2face]

And how much more does that reveal the love God has for mankind. That both Father and Son were willing to risk so much by the Son's voluntary humility in becoming fully man and putting Himself on probation in order to redeem us.

Imagine if you meet the Master and you understood he resisted every single temptation; agonized in the flesh for you?

This is a slide I designed to show the effects of temptation and sin. The three attributes of the flesh are highlighted in 1 John 2:16.



Note: dotted line represents Godliness with contentment is great gain!

When the desire curve intensifies we usually sin (but not always we do have victories) but how was it with the Lord Jesus Christ? Well he was able to use his Fathers Word to overcome, imprison the desire and keep it contained in 2 Corinthians 10:4; 2 Corinthians 10:5

We tear down arguments 10:5 and every arrogant obstacle that is raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to make it obey Christ.

Jesus had the rebellious thought (which is not a sin by the way) and made the thought captive to make it obedient to God.

In a truth we give in to lusts far too quickly but if I said to you that Jesus on every occasion to sin resisted until it passed not once giving into the desires of his flesh knowing he triumphed over the flesh were no other man could. Not because he was God, or pre-existed only in that he grew (increased) in wisdom and strength and learned the wisdom of his Fathers word from a child Luke 2:52.

For me knowing he was tempted in every way, like me in every way but in one way he was different...he honored his Father were we could not. We have a bias like lawn bowls, the ball will eventually turn one way or the other - Christ felt the pull, but lent on His Father to keep him straight. Proverbs 4:27

You see Jesus wasn't fearful of sin, as much as he was afraid of shame. If you read the Servant Songs in Isaiah you will see the Servant after God's own heart would become nothing if he was to be shamed. In the picture above you will see men drown in shame as a result of sin...though Jesus's hand is outstretched always willing to grab hold as he did for Peter when he took his eyes of Jesus.

It's sad we cant talk about these matters with one mind as it truly is the weightier matters of the Gospel.

Thanks for your approach to this conversation and while we are not at the same place, I sense some of the content of these posts have left a positive mark.

God bless
F2F

 

[Johann]

If Christ as an individual eternally existed, then the whole Father/Son motif becomes nothing more than a metaphor. The Father/Son relationship is merely a show. Play acting. The trinity depicts 3 co-equal co-eternal beings, all exactly the same. Any one of then could have chosen to be the father, and the other the son.
I believe God made man in his image. With real literal offspring just as He had. The mechanics would be different obviously, but surely begotten means a beginning. It does in every other instant the word is used.

Only begotten Son — Does only begotten Son mean Jesus was created?

 

[Johann]

Too bad

Only begotten Son — Does only begotten Son mean Jesus was created?

Found this..@Brakelite


Meaning of Only Begotten Son
The Greek word for “only begotten” in John 3:16 is monogenes. It is a compound word made of two other Greek words, monos meaning “only” and kenos meaning “kind or race.” If we combine these words together, we have “only kind” or “unique.” That is, Jesus is the only begotten Son.

An example that helps us understand the meaning of monogenes is found in Hebrews 11:17-18.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac; and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” Hebrews 11:17-18 (NASB)

In order to understand the meaning of “only begotten Son” in this verse, it is important to remember that Abraham had eight sons: Ishmael (Genesis 16:15), Issac (Genesis 21:3) and the six other sons by Keturah who were: Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and Shuah (Genesis 25:1-2). Issac was not Abraham’s first born son. He was Abraham’s special son (Genesis 17:19). He was the son God promised to Abraham and Sarah and the son for whom God had special plans.

Next notice that Isaac is called “only begotten” in Hebrews 11:17-18. Now was Abraham’s only son Isaac? No! Abraham had eight sons. This helps us understand that the Greek monogenes word has been mistranslated and, consequently, misunderstood. Monogenes does not mean Jesus was born. The Greek word monogenes means “unique” or “one and only.” Some of the newer Bible translations such as the New Century Version, New International Version, and the New Living Translation are now using the correct wording. Here is the NIV’s wording,

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 (NIV)

Was Jesus Created?
Since monogenes means “unique one,” we should understand John 3:16 to mean that Jesus was not created. He was the unique Son of God the Father. Monogenes does not refer to birth, being conceived, or created. The message of Scripture is that Jesus has been God and will continue to be God eternally. Jesus is God. Yet within the trinity, God the Father declared the second person of the Trinity to be called the Son when He took on human flesh in order to become our Savior. For more information visit “What is the meaning that Jesus is the Son of God?”

Conclusion:
Jesus is the one and only Son of God. He was not created and He was not made. Since the expression “Son of God” was an ancient expression meaning that Jesus was and is God, Jesus is the one and only God. He is the eternal One!

Only begotten Son — Does only begotten Son mean Jesus was created?-it-says-jesus-is-the-only-begotten-son-2/

I'm not going to believe that God was brought into existence. God has always been in existence. The True God isn't Begotten. I believe God brought his Only Begotten Son into existence, that he begot his Only Begotten Son but his Son was begotten long before humanity even existed.
Also when you speak about the Only Begotten Son of God being in the essence with his Father I don't believe you're talking about something that's biblical but instead about something that came from the philosophy of men. The scriptures tell us not to listen to the philosophy of men.

 

[RedFan]

This is SO clear
J.

Not to me. You mention "kenos" as meaning "kind" or "race" -- although some might disagree -- but it seems to me that "kenos" isn't part of monogenes. Rather, "genes" is. Have you mistaken a "g" for a "k" here?