For those who think Christ is not God.

[TLHKAJ]

1 John 4:1 is what we are doing. Out of interest, if you were informed that your foundation was error would you be willing to accept truth, or would your pride destroy you?

My foundation isn't in error. Jesus Christ Himself came to me (from age 10) before I knew who He was and revealed Himself to me for 3 solid years. He called me by name to follow Him and I've been following Him ever since. He rescued me from a bloodline satanic family. I was 13 years old. I am now in my late 40's. I know Him and He knows me. I won't deny Him, nor the scriptures.

 

[face2face]

My foundation isn't in error. Jesus Christ Himself came to me (from age 10) before I knew who He was and revealed Himself to me for 3 solid years. He called me by name to follow Him and I've been following Him ever since. He rescued me from a bloodline satanic family. I was 13 years old. I am now in my late 40's. I know Him and He knows me. I won't deny Him, nor the scriptures.

Everyone's foundation is in error until they are revealed a higher truth from above. James 1:5 applies and will do until you fall asleep in your Lord. After that it is what it is. Also no one is asking you to deny him...only to know him as he is revealed in the Scriptures.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Colossians 1:15–17

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. and in him all things hold together.

This scripture here at Colossians 1:15-17 doesn't say Jesus is God. I mean if that's what you're trying to say by quoting this scripture.
I can see it says that the Only Begotten Son of God is the image of God, but being the image of God isn't the same as being God.
Here in Colossians it also says that Jesus is the firstborn of creation. I know there are some who say that the phrase, the firstborn of creation when connected to Jesus means, prime, most excellent, most distinguished of creation. By saying this they say this phrase, the firstborn of creation means Jesus is not part of creation. I can't agree with that reasoning. It would seem to me that the Holy Spirit and the Father would also said to be the firstborn of creation by that reasoning. Yet the phrase, the firstborn of creation is only applied to Jesus. Why is Jesus Christ alone said to be the firstborn of creation.
If I go by how the scriptures use the phrase, the firstborn of, in connection to living creatures whether those living creatures be animals or humans what is said to be firstborn is part of that group. What I mean is if you are talking about the firstborn of sheep, you would be talking about specific sheep in a Shepherd's flock of sheep. You see how those sheep who were firstborn were specific sheep within his flock. So those firstborn sheep belonged to that group called a flock of sheep. It's the same with humans. When you're talking about the firstborn of Israel you're talking about specific humans in the nation of Israel. What is said to be firstborn belonged to that group called the nation of Israel. The scriptures are always consistent using the phrase the firstborn of in connection to living creatures, it doesn't deviate. So why is Jesus said to be the firstborn of creation if the scriptures show that whenever the phrase the firstborn of is used when connected to living creatures is showed to be part of the group?

 

[Brakelite]

There are no scriptures that prove Jesus is God, only scriptures that prove Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. The Only Begotten Son of God is divine but he's not God.

Oh? Then what is He? Cannot God beget God?

 

[face2face]

Oh? Then what is He? Cannot God beget God?

No, because Yahweh is without a beginning and an end...in fact, He is the beginning of all things and He is the end of all things. He determines the start and the finish.

Isaiah 44:6-7 “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him make his claim!

Not even the Son can make that claim for we all know his beginning and his end.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Everyone's foundation is in error until they are revealed a higher truth from above. James 1:5 applies and will do until you fall asleep in your Lord. After that it is what it is. Also no one is asking you to deny him...only to know him as he is revealed in the Scriptures.

That verse has nothing to do with one's foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
[11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[Brakelite]

its not possible for Christ to be a representative sacrifice if he is not like those he came to save.

There are statements such as the above, and below, that I like, although in order to fully endorse them I would need to know what precisely you mean by "like those", and "sin prone nature". You see, I agree that Christy had to be fully human in order to die, and in order to know what it is like experientially to resist sin that He might "succor them that are tempted". But to go so far as to claim He had sinful propensities... That is habit formed idiosyncracies that lead to sin... Is a stretch too far.

Jesus was given God's power without measure (Matthew 28:18) and in his own body he overcame a sin prone nature (through death) and sat down at the right hand of God....

and how can a pre-existent Christ inherit a name which you say he's always had

We inherit life as adopted children. It is the same life that Christ won on our behalf through the life He gave on Calvary. But the life He inherited, the "resurrection and the life" that Christ inherited was not as a created being, nor one of adoption, but a natural born Son who risked His own eternal existence by becoming human and giving His life a ransom. The name He inherited was the name of the Father. God. (Hebrews1:8) A name that denotes character. A name that is fitting for a Son to possess. A divine name..a name of authority and above every other name, yet the Son will forever remain second in rank to the Father. However, in all other things Christ reigns supreme.

If Jesus didn't have our nature then what was it that God condemned in him?

Our sin. A sinner can die only for his own sins. Christ died for ours.

Neither by the blood of goats or calves, but by his own blood he (Jesus) entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us".

Yet that verse needs to be understood and harmonized with the rest of scripture yes? Like here...
KJV Romans 3:25-26
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
That word propitiation means, for us. Thus it is appropriate to have for us at the end of Hebrews 9:12. See also Colossians 1:14.

At this point I just want to reiterate my position. I do not debate the nature of God. That is above my pay grade. But throughout scripture Jesus is revealed. From Genesis to Revelation. But through the centuries the character of God has been so twisted and distorted, one prime reason for the incarnation was for the Son to reveal His Father's character. But as a human! That is truly telling. He came as the second Adam. The express image of the Father.
KJV John 5:46
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
When did Moses write of Jesus? KJV Exodus 34:1-7
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
This was Jesus talking with Moses, although He obviously was not known by that name at that time. No-one has seen God at any time and lived... But they have seen the Son... The representative of the Father... The Word of God... On numerous occasions.
KJV Genesis 32:30
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel the face of God: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

KJV Genesis 35:9
9 And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him.

KJV Judges 2:1-4
1 And an angel (Messenger)of the LORD came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.
2 And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this?
3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.
4 And it came to pass, when the angel of the LORD spake these words unto all the children of Israel, that the people lifted up their voice, and wept.




.

 

[Brakelite]

No, because Yahweh is without a beginning and an end...in fact, He is the beginning of all things and He is the end of all things. He determines the start and the finish.

Isaiah 44:6-7 “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him make his claim!

Not even the Son can make that claim for we all know his beginning and his end.

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne O God..."
The Son claimed to be the Son of the Father, for which almost the entire Jewish leadership wanted Him killed. Yet they all claimed to be children of God. As do we all. No. What Jesus was claiming, and the Jews knew, was far and above anything before imagined or claimed.
John's entire gospel was focused on proving that Jesus was the Son of God. Yet not once did he reference Bethlehem. God sent His only begotten Son. One must assume that God had a son to send.

 

[Brakelite]

No, because Yahweh is without a beginning and an end...in fact, He is the beginning of all things and He is the end of all things. He determines the start and the finish.

Isaiah 44:6-7 “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him make his claim!

Not even the Son can make that claim for we all know his beginning and his end.

That doesn't answer my question. If Jesus was not God begotten, then what was He? What did God beget if not an offspring... Like begetting like... Of Himself? And way before creation as scripture declares loudly, Christ being Creator.

 

[Brakelite]

But through the centuries the character of God has been so twisted and distorted, one prime reason for the incarnation was for the Son to reveal His Father's character. But as a human! That is truly telling

Just as an adjunct, we also, in the same manner Christ did, through faith and self sacrifice, can reveal the character of the Father and show forth How glory to the world, through Christ in us, the hope of glory.

 

[face2face]

That verse has nothing to do with one's foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11
[11]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

You don't believe wisdom has anything to do with your foundation?

 

[Johann]

Read it carefully...death = mortality = inherited sin nature and its onlu in that nature that we sin.

Was Jesus plagued with inherited sin F2F?
J.

 

[face2face]

There are statements such as the above, and below, that I like, although in order to fully endorse them I would need to know what precisely you mean by "like those", and "sin prone nature". You see, I agree that Christ had to be fully human in order to die, and in order to know what it is like experientially to resist sin that He might "succor them that are tempted". But to go so far as to claim He had sinful propensities... That is habit formed idiosyncracies that lead to sin... Is a stretch too far.

Thanks for your response. Love that you used Hebrews 2:18 - its a key chapter in understanding the nature of Christ.

To answer your question, allow me to ask one; when Jesus said "not my will but thine be done" - can you acknowledge Jesus possessed a potential mind which was in opposition to his Father? The Scriptures call it a carnal mind Romans 8:6.

If you were to say "Jesus did not have a carnal mind, then I would ask, what is the alternative will Jesus is referring to in the Garden?" The fact he never acted on that will does not mean he didn't have the propensities to do so...I think that's the whole point - Jesus could sin if he so desired.

If like @Johann who believes it was impossible for Jesus to be tempted (or to sin) then we are back to believing in a puppet show - and of course God's righteousness is no longer declared in a flesh and blood man.

I will be back later with a reply to the remainder of your post.

F2F.

Hebrews 2:18 question - is the source of our temptations the same as Jesus - must be yes otherwise he cannot sucour us.

 

[face2face]

Our sin. A sinner can die only for his own sins. Christ died for ours.
.

Romans 8:1-3

This may be coming full circle but if God condemned sin in His Son what must have Jesus had for Him to do that?

2 Corinthians 13:4

For he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God.

What is our shared weakness?

Imagine the Trinitarians here jumping up and down saying "Christ wasn't weak" makes me laugh that they don't truly know him...though they boast they do.

 

[face2face]

Was Jesus plagued with inherited sin F2F?
J.

No, what he was plagued with is here....Luke 12:50 - what caused him so much agony and distress (straightened)?

His Baptism here:

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection

He put your nature to death on that tree that you might be able to enter his death and his resurrection. The fact that you believe him to be God shows me you have no idea of the suffering the Christ wrought for you.

 

[face2face]

That doesn't answer my question. If Jesus was not God begotten, then what was He? What did God beget if not an offspring... Like begetting like... Of Himself? And way before creation as scripture declares loudly, Christ being Creator.

Jesus was begotten. Born of a Woman and of the Spirit - He put to death his natural heritage and choose to cling to His Father's Word. As a result of Christ becoming the Word made Flesh full of grace and truth it can be said all things now exist because of him - without him this creation and age would not exist for how else can a man be saved Acts 4:12

'There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

 

[Johann]

You don't believe wisdom has anything to do with your foundation?

also...


Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father in heaven.

Mat 16:18 I tell you also that you are a stone, and upon this stone I will build my church; and the doors of Sheol shall not shut in on it.

"But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne O God..."
The Son claimed to be the Son of the Father, for which almost the entire Jewish leadership wanted Him killed. Yet they all claimed to be children of God. As do we all. No. What Jesus was claiming, and the Jews knew, was far and above anything before imagined or claimed.
John's entire gospel was focused on proving that Jesus was the Son of God. Yet not once did he reference Bethlehem. God sent His only begotten Son. One must assume that God had a son to send.

 

[TLHKAJ]

No, because Yahweh is without a beginning and an end...in fact, He is the beginning of all things and He is the end of all things. He determines the start and the finish.

Isaiah 44:6-7 “I am the first and I am the last, there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him make his claim!

Not even the Son can make that claim for we all know his beginning and his end.

To answer your question, allow me to ask one; when Jesus said "not my will but thine be done" - can you acknowledge Jesus possessed a potential mind which was in opposition to his Father?

Not at all. Jesus came to do the Father's will.

John 5:30
[30]I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

...just as scripture says the Word is sent to do.

Isaiah 55:11
[11]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 16:27-28
[27]For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
[28]I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

It's not difficult to understand the verses above. Jesus said that He came out/came forth from God. And no wonder, because HE IS THE WORD. He came out from God, into the world, and then left the world and went back to God the Father.

The Word is God. (Of course you and some others like to twist and explain this away to mean something else, or you deny it's truth altogether.)

John 1:1-2,14
[1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2]The same was in the beginning with God.
[14]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Luke 9:26 - Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Now remember, these are Christ's words that may carry more weight don't you think?

Bible Study 101: what is common in the two verses I just quoted Ron? Hint: the words are bolded

Are you blind? It says He is coming in His glory and the gliry of the Father ..."

It's clear you are not born again, baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit does not live in you, your Bible Study 101 class is retarded, blurry and superficial or at best on th level of a Pharisee. You are like half of the virgins who didn't have oil for their lamps. Do you know what the oil is symbolic for? Better get some for your lamp, the light is out. He is coming soon in His glory, the glory He had with the Father before the foundation of the earth.
This path you are on, with its perpetual onslaught of degrading and dishonoring Christ is evil at its core.

 

[Johann]

No, what he was plagued with is here....Luke 12:50 - what caused him so much agony and distress (straightened)?

His Baptism here:

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection

He put your nature to death on that tree that you might be able to enter his death and his resurrection. The fact that you believe him to be God shows me you have no idea of the suffering the Christ wrought for you.

This may be coming full circle but if God condemned sin in His Son what must have Jesus had for Him to do that?

God condemned SIN IN (locative of sphere) His
Son? F2F?

So would you say Christ "became sin?"
in the sense that hamartia interpenetrated our Lord?
J.