For those who think Christ is not God.

[APAK]

Yes, anyone and everyone can do that. I see a lot of that on forums.

Yes, varying hermeneutics, failing to account for genre, I share all those complaints.


That's absolutely NOT what I find. What we find is that when we allow all the passages to speak for themselfs, when we determine their true saying, there is no doubt that that YHWH took on flesh, and was born from Mary, our God Who became a Man, of all things!

The Grand Romantic Gesture! To what length will you go to save your beloved?

Much love!

Adding in more human reasoning even with much zeal and passion, is no match for using the reasoning of God per his word marks. This is always our main window or portal into the spiritual domain of God for all things. The other portal is housed with us, within the Kingdom within us, by his divine or Holy Spirit that can persuade and guide us into all spiritual knowledge and understanding.

I would find what God would do per his scripture to save mankind and restore it to himself as a grand-scale form of salvation, and with prayer, and avoid our use of human imaginations as my basis of premise or entering argument of question as you did in your post. And God would never commit suicide or became a man to do so, to restore mankind. He is incapable of becoming a man and by another woman no less. He is the only true God the Father of all spirits ever created or in existence. He is above human kind and all creation in all ways, composition, shape, influence and power. When we maintain a view God from a human perspective we tend to limit him to an extreme form of a perfect god-man. This is an illusion and delusional thinking. His ways are not our ways and we cannot know his ways without his assistance, period.

 

[Johann]

Good study Johann. I would like to add an even more poignant type/shadow to the above which reveals Christ throughout... The sanctuary. From the altar of sacrifice, t the laver, the door, the showbread, candlestick, altar of incense, the veil, and the ark of the covenant holding the law... All revealing Christ and His ministry. This was how Israel learned the gospel.

I think there is a book on types, typology and shadows on what you've mentioned Brakelite, Christ in the Old Testament..something like that and also, THE Angel of the Lord..none other than than Christ Jesus Himself.
Bless you
J.

 

[face2face]

Its kinda like they Have GOD committing suicide.

It all comes down to them not understanding the Shema and Yahweh's Oneness. Everything flows from this understanding and to know Him, His Holiness and how He is separate from sinners and the world is lost on them.

 

[face2face]

And God would never commit suicide or became a man to do so, to restore mankind. He is incapable of becoming a man and by another woman no less. He is the only true God the Father of all spirits ever created or in existence. He is above human kind and all creation in all ways, composition, shape, influence and power. When we maintain a view God from a human perspective we tend to limit him to an extreme form of a perfect god-man. This is an illusion and delusional thinking. His ways are not our ways and we cannot know his ways without his assistance, period.

Much to like about this APAK!

 

[face2face]

If the covenant of circumcision that God gave to Abraham is a most expressive symbolic repudiation of the flesh, the substance being the “putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” (Colossians 2:11):

Why was Jesus circumcised on the 8th day? Only to tick a box concerning the Law?

further to this, why should he be baptized? and for what reason other than a repudiation (and crucifixion) of the flesh to which he held?

Jesus is still not God!

 

[Johann]

There is a difference between a body being in a state of decay and it seeing full corruption. The Lords body would have stated the process of decay approx 24 hours after his death with it really increasing around 72 hours. Psalm 16:10

Clearly messianic.

For you will not leave my soul (body!) among the dead or allow your holy one to rot in the grave.

Of course his body was corrupting while he was alive - he was an aging man like you and I!

It's odd that I am continually having to explain things I thought were common knowledge among believers. Staggered Johann didn't know Psalm 16:10 and Acts 13:34.

You are groping for straws...

Thou wilt not give thy holy one to see corruption (ou dōseis ton hosion sou idein diaphthoran). Quotation from Psa_16:10 to show that Jesus did not see corruption in his body, a flat contradiction for those who deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

ἰδεῖν To See ...διαφθοράν ...


neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption; that is, to lie so long in the grave as to putrefy and be corrupted; wherefore he was raised from the dead on the third day, according to the Scriptures, before the time bodies begin to be corrupted; see Joh 11:39; and this was owing not to the care of Joseph or Nicodemus, in providing spices to preserve it, but of God who raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; and who would not suffer his body to be corrupted, because he was holy, and because he was his Holy One; that so as there was no moral corruption in him, there should be no natural corruption in him; so the Jewish Midrash {w} interprets it, that

"no worm or maggot should have power over him;''

which is not true of David, nor of any but the Messiah. This character of "Holy One" eminently belongs to Christ above angels and men, yea, it is often used of the divine Being, and it agrees with Christ in his divine nature, and is true of him as man; he is the holy thing, the holy child Jesus; his nature is pure and spotless, free from the taint of original sin; his life and conversation were holy and harmless, he did no sin, nor knew any, nor could any be found in him by men or devils; his doctrines were holy, and tended to promote holiness of life; all his works are holy, and such is the work of redemption, which is wrought out in consistence with and to the glory of the holiness and righteousness of God;

Christ is holy in all his offices, and is the fountain of holiness to his people; and he is God's Holy One, he has property in him as his Son, and as Mediator, and even as an Holy One; for he was sanctified and sent into the world by him, being anointed with the holy oil of his Spirit without measure. The word may be rendered, a "merciful" {x} or "liberal" and "beneficent one": for Christ is all this; he is a merciful as well as a faithful high priest, and he generously distributes grace and glory to his people.

{u} "--animamque sepulchro coudimus--". Virgil. Aeneid. 3. v. 67. {w} Apud Kimchi in v. 9. {x} חסדיך "misericordem tuum", Pagninus, Montanus; "beneficus tuus", Piscator.


διαφθορά, διαφθορᾶς, ἡ (διαφθείρω), corruption, destruction; in the N. T. that destruction which is effected by the decay of the body after death: Acts 2:27, 31; Acts 13:34-37 (cf. Winers Grammar, § 65, 10), see εἰδῶ, I 5 and ὑποστρέφω, 2. (the Sept. for שָׁחַת; in Greek writings from Aeschylus down.)


To see corruption - Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return, was a sentence pronounced on man after the fall: therefore this sentence could be executed on none but those who were fallen; but Jesus, being conceived without sin, neither partook of human corruption, nor was involved in the condemnation of fallen human nature; consequently, it was impossible for his body to see corruption; and it could not have undergone the temporary death, to which it was not naturally liable, had it not been for the purpose of making an atonement. It was therefore impossible that the human nature of our Lord could be subject to corruption: for though it was possible that the soul and it might be separated for a time, yet, as it had not sinned, it was not liable to dissolution; and its immortality was the necessary consequence of its being pure from transgression.

You certainly are preaching a strange gospel.
J.

 

[Johann]

It all comes down to them not understanding the Shema and Yahweh's Oneness. Everything flows from this understanding and to know Him, His Holiness and how He is separate from sinners and the world is lost on them.

yachid and echad, really debunking your "oneness"
J.

 

[face2face]

You are groping for straws...
but Jesus, being conceived without sin, neither partook of human corruption, nor was involved in the condemnation of fallen human nature; consequently, it was impossible for his body to see corruption;

So what you are saying is if God left his son in the grave his body would never corrupt?

Hmmm and I have strange things going on

 

[face2face]

@Johann you have to admit your opposition to the Word of God is ridiculous.

You say Jesus cant be tempted or sin, or is it, he can be tempted, but cant sin
The Bible states Jesus wouldn't be left to corrupt in the grave, but you say its impossible for him to decay

Are you a troll by any chance? because you have contradicted every single Bible verse to this point. I'd say, even some of your trinitarian buddies are thinking he's lost the plot surely?

Are you so sold on your three headed god that every Scripture must be sieved through this paradigm?

 

[Johann]

@Johann you have to admit your opposition to the Word of God is ridiculous.

You say Jesus cant be tempted or sin, or is it, he can be tempted, but cant sin
The Bible states Jesus wouldn't be left to corrupt in the grave, but you say its impossible for him to decay

Are you a troll by any chance? because you have contradicted every single Bible verse to this point. I'd say, even some of your trinitarian buddies are thinking he's lost the plot surely?

Are you so sold on your three headed god that every Scripture must be sieved through this paradigm?

So what you are saying is if God left his son in the grave his body would never corrupt?

Hmmm and I have strange things going on

This to show you the error of interpreting scriptures, maybe accidentally, maybe willfully.
As to your reference that I am "trolling" you, this is not Facebook, so I reckon I can give the correct explanation when I see error.
If it really bothers you so much hit the ignore button, no sweat of my nose.
J.

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

he is God but lesser than his father God
for he said he was the one that was sent he that sent him was greater than him that was sent

he was God he is in the father the father in him he is God but yes not greater than the father God nor is he equal
Philippians 2:6-7 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

so
christ is not
greater
nor
equal with God
his
father

no man know not even the angels nor christ know what hour the end will come but only the father

christ is God
but
father God
is greater than christ God

 

[face2face]

T
If it really bothers you so much hit the ignore button, no sweat of my nose.
J.

That's where its heading - your ignorance of the Word astounds me...and its willing.

 

[face2face]

christ is God
but
father God
is greater than christ God

Christ God

 

[Johann]

That's where its heading - your ignorance of the Word astounds me...and its willing.

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Act 2:27 "Because you will not abandon the nefesh (soul) of me to destruction nor will you give your Chasid [T.N. i.e., Moshiach the ultimate Chasid] to see corruption.")
OJB

Corruption


diaphthora
dee-af-thor-ah’
From G1311; decay: - corruption.
LXX related word(s)
H2254 chaval
H2256 chevel
H4073 madchephot
H4341 makhov
H7843 shachat pi.,hi.


Ra’ah
- Phonetic: raw-aw’
- Definition:
1. to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
a. (Qal)
1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
6. to look at, gaze at
b. (Niphal)
1. to appear, present oneself
2. to be seen
3. to be visible
c. (Pual) to be seen
d. (Hiphil)



Psa 16:10 כִּ֤י ׀ for לֹא־ Nor תַעֲזֹ֣ב For thou wilt not leave נַפְשִׁ֣י my soul לִשְׁא֑וֹל in hell לֹֽא־ Nor תִתֵּ֥ן neither wilt thou suffer חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ thine Holy One לִרְא֥וֹת to see שָֽׁחַת׃ corruption

1. to cause to see, show
2. to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
e. (Hophal)
1. to be caused to see, be shown
2. to be exhibited to
f. (Hithpael) to look at each other, face
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 2095
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong’s: A primitive root; to see literally or figuratively (in numerous applications direct and implied transitively intransitively and causatively): - advise self appear approve behold X certainly consider discern (make to) enjoy have experience gaze take heed X indeed X joyfully lo look (on one another one on another one upon another out up upon) mark meet X be near perceive present provide regard (have) respect (fore- cause to let) see (-r -m one another) shew (self) X sight of others (e-) spy stare X surely X think view visions.
Total KJV Occurrences: 1308

Thine holy one...not to see/experience corruption/decay...

You say, "Yes, He did!"

And you flat out contradict what stands written in Scripture?
J.

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

Christ God

what?

 

[Johann]

That's where its heading - your ignorance of the Word astounds me...and its willing.

persons in this event are Mary, Judas, and Jesus.
Mary (v. 7). Only John identifies this woman as
Mary, sister of Martha and Lazarus. She is found only
three times in the Gospels, and in each instance she is
at the feet of Jesus. She sat at His feet and listened to
the Word (Luke 10:38–42); she came to His feet in sorrow after the death of Lazarus (John 11:28–32); and
she worshipped at His feet when she anointed Him
with the ointment (John 12:1ff.). Mary was a deeply
spiritual woman. She found at His feet her blessing, she
brought to His feet her burdens, and she gave at His
feet her best.
When we combine the gospel records, we learn that
she anointed both His head and His feet, and wiped
His feet with her hair. A woman’s hair is her glory (1
Cor. 11:15). She surrendered her glory to the Lord and
worshipped Him with the precious gift that she
brought. It was an act of love and devotion that
brought fragrance to the whole house.
Because she had listened to His word, Mary knew
that soon Jesus would die and be buried. She also knew
that His body would not need the traditional care
given to the dead because His body would not see corrruption (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:22–28). Instead of anointing
His body after His death, she did so before His death. It
was an act of faith and love.
Wiersbe
Just stumbled on this resource confirming what I have explained to you.
J.

 

[face2face]

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Act 2:27 "Because you will not abandon the nefesh (soul) of me to destruction nor will you give your Chasid [T.N. i.e., Moshiach the ultimate Chasid] to see corruption.")
OJB

Corruption


diaphthora
dee-af-thor-ah’
From G1311; decay: - corruption.
LXX related word(s)
H2254 chaval
H2256 chevel
H4073 madchephot
H4341 makhov
H7843 shachat pi.,hi.


Ra’ah
- Phonetic: raw-aw’
- Definition:
1. to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
a. (Qal)
1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
6. to look at, gaze at
b. (Niphal)
1. to appear, present oneself
2. to be seen
3. to be visible
c. (Pual) to be seen
d. (Hiphil)



Psa 16:10 כִּ֤י ׀ for לֹא־ Nor תַעֲזֹ֣ב For thou wilt not leave נַפְשִׁ֣י my soul לִשְׁא֑וֹל in hell לֹֽא־ Nor תִתֵּ֥ן neither wilt thou suffer חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ thine Holy One לִרְא֥וֹת to see שָֽׁחַת׃ corruption

1. to cause to see, show
2. to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
e. (Hophal)
1. to be caused to see, be shown
2. to be exhibited to
f. (Hithpael) to look at each other, face
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 2095
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong’s: A primitive root; to see literally or figuratively (in numerous applications direct and implied transitively intransitively and causatively): - advise self appear approve behold X certainly consider discern (make to) enjoy have experience gaze take heed X indeed X joyfully lo look (on one another one on another one upon another out up upon) mark meet X be near perceive present provide regard (have) respect (fore- cause to let) see (-r -m one another) shew (self) X sight of others (e-) spy stare X surely X think view visions.
Total KJV Occurrences: 1308

Thine holy one...not to see/experience corruption/decay...

You say, "Yes, He did!"

And you flat out contradict what stands written in Scripture?
J.

The point is, if his body was left in the tomb his body would start to decompose (fully). Before that process began, God raised him on the 3rd day. You say it was impossible for his body to decay regardless of his time in the grave as though he was made of something different. The impossibility resides with God's will to raise him, not anything special about Christs body. BTW any dead body is starting that process 24-72 hours but the process really kicks in after that. If you want to be legal minded about it sure he didn't fully decompose but if left in that tomb for weeks his body would do what any persons body would do and break down.

 

[Johann]

what?

Interesting
J.

 

[Johann]

The point is, if his body was left in the tomb his body would start to decompose (fully). Before that process began, God raised him on the 3rd day. You say it was impossible for his body to decay regardless of his time in the grave as though he was made of something different. The impossibility resides with God's will to raise him, not anything special about Christs body. BTW any dead body is starting that process 24-72 hours but the process really kicks in after that. If you want to be legal minded about it sure he didn't fully decompose but if left in that tomb for weeks his body would do what any persons body would do and break down.

Again...

I have given you the meaning, the explanation, now listen to this..also remember that you don't believe Christ is God whereas I do believe that Mashiach is God.. and that our Lord and Savior never had a biological father and a body was fitted/prepared for our Lord.
Forget the fact that I believe in the Triune God, leave that aside..let's concentrate on what happened when Jesus died on that cross for you and I and IF, as you say, the body of Mashiach was already in a state of decay, this is where you and I see and read the scriptures with different lenses.

Not only was Jesus God but His human nature was in "the Likeness" of ours, do look up this word..and according to scriptures "The Holy One" NEVER see/experienced decay or rottenness when He died and rose again.

Acts 2:27
...nor allow thy Holy One to UNDERGO decay...F2F
Can you see where you and I differ reading this passage?
J.

 

[face2face]

Again...

I have given you the meaning, the explanation, now listen to this..also remember that you don't believe Christ is God whereas I do believe that Mashiach is God.. and that our Lord and Savior never had a biological father and a body was fitted/prepared for our Lord.
Forget the fact that I believe in the Triune God, leave that aside..let's concentrate on what happened when Jesus died on that cross for you and I and IF, as you say, the body of Mashiach was already in a state of decay, this is where you and I see and read the scriptures with different lenses.

Not only was Jesus God but His human nature was in "the Likeness" of ours, do look up this word..and according to scriptures "The Holy One" NEVER see/experienced decay or rottenness when He died and rose again.

Acts 2:27
...nor allow thy Holy One to UNDERGO decay...F2F
Can you see where you and I differ reading this passage?
J.

I'm starting a new thread where we can further discover the true nature of Christ and why him being fully mortal was necessary for the propitiation of sins. I can see all your comments are coming from a misguided view of who Jesus actually was and why the Apostles spend so much time on telling us he was fully human. Probably good timing to jump off this thread as @marks reminded us - poor manners makes for poor communication. God bless.