For those who think Christ is not God.

[Johann]

I'm starting a new thread where we can further discover the true nature of Christ and why him being fully mortal was necessary for the propitiation of sins. I can see all your comments are coming from a misguided view of who Jesus actually was and why the Apostles spend so much time on telling us he was fully human. Probably good timing to jump off this thread as @marks reminded us - poor manners makes for poor communication. God bless.

Shalom
J

 

[Brakelite]

I think there is a book on types, typology and shadows on what you've mentioned Brakelite, Christ in the Old Testament..something like that and also, THE Angel of the Lord..none other than than Christ Jesus Himself.
Bless you
J.

Haven't read any books, but have heard several sermons and been a part of a number of Bible studies focused on the topic. It's really fascinating and instructive.

 

[Brakelite]

Adding in more human reasoning even with much zeal and passion, is no match for using the reasoning of God per his word marks. This is always our main window or portal into the spiritual domain of God for all things. The other portal is housed with us, within the Kingdom within us, by his divine or Holy Spirit that can persuade and guide us into all spiritual knowledge and understanding.

I would find what God would do per his scripture to save mankind and restore it to himself as a grand-scale form of salvation, and with prayer, and avoid our use of human imaginations as my basis of premise or entering argument of question as you did in your post. And God would never commit suicide or became a man to do so, to restore mankind. He is incapable of becoming a man and by another woman no less. He is the only true God the Father of all spirits ever created or in existence. He is above human kind and all creation in all ways, composition, shape, influence and power. When we maintain a view God from a human perspective we tend to limit him to an extreme form of a perfect god-man. This is an illusion and delusional thinking. His ways are not our ways and we cannot know his ways without his assistance, period.

God didn't commit suicide. That thought comes from the same root that suggested to Adam and Eve that God would kill them if they sinned. God didn't threaten Adam when He said they would die if they made the wrong choices. It was a warning. Sin brings death. Not God. When sin was laid upon the Lamb, sin killed Him. Yours, and mine. The only way Christ could have avoided death was to refuse our sin. Then we would have been lost. Jesus risked His own eternal life for our sake.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I have shown you Jesus is the Creator...now you veer off in a million directions with an altered perception and viewpoint
Shalom
Time for @marks to come bulldozing this tower of "Babel"
J.

No sir, you showed me a version of the Bible that said that. In line with the rest of Scripture, your translators should have used the word through as that is accurate, not by. Notice how your translators inconsistently translate the word en:
ejn En (en);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 1722

1. in, by, with etc.

KJV Word Usage and Count
in 1874
by 141
with 134
among 117
at 112
on 46
through 37
miscellaneous 321
Keep in mind the translators of your preferred version deliberately altered verses to support the doctrinal teaching of Jesus being God, rather than Jehovah. They deliberately removed His name thousands of times, and altered other verses which contradicts other passages. As I have stated in the past, it is the main reason you believe the way you do Joe, but you have to be in line with Scripture for salvation sir.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You want to argue semantics?

Col 1:16 Because in Him were created all things in Shomayim and on Ha'Aretz, the visible and the nistar (hidden), whether thrones or dominions, whether rulers or authorities, all things through Him and for Him have been created. [TEHILLIM 33:6]
OJB
ἐν αὐτῷ... ἐκτίσθη...
Part of Speech: Verb

Tense: Aorist< Tell me what this mean..
Voice: Passive< ...and this
Mood: Indicative
Person: third [he/she/it]
Number: Singular

a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537)
You will lose this debate or have lost it already Robert.
J.

Addressed in another post Joe

 

[Robert Gwin]

This is true according to the letter of Scripture only, and not not with the Spirit who inspired and wrote all Scripture.

The Lamb is indeed sitting at the right hand of God, and He will once again obey the Father, who will send Him a second time to earth, and the Son and Word is the second position of the Godhead: the Father, The Son, the Holy Ghost.

However, by the Spirit of all Scripture, we also know that the Word was God, and the Son is the true God and Saviour.

The letter only, without the Spirit kills any understanding and knowledge of the truth.

Also, Scripture never says the Son sits at the right hand of the Father, but only of God, and so the Father also sits at the hand of God on His throne.

And all that overcome on this earth as Jesus did, will also be seated at the hand of God with the Father and the Son:

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

The throne of God is therefore both the Father and the Son's throne: God's throne is the Father's throne and the throne of the Son: His throne the same as the Father.

Those who read the letter of Scripture only without the Spirit, are the carnal minded who do not believe any letters written that they cannot figure out for themselves: they do not trust all Scripture to be true as written, and so will never see how all Scripture together interprets itself.

The carnal mind does not therefore believe all Scriptures as written, having not the Spirit who wrote all Scripture within their hearts.

And since the Scripture is not written in the hearts by the Spirit, but only on paper in letters, they have no problem changing, adding to, or taking away any letters of Scripture they don't like: those letters that do not conform to their own carnal minds.

Frankly Rob, I believe Jehovah protects His word sir, I see how He prevented the translators of the KJV from removing it completely, and after we (and others) made His name abundantly known throughout the earth, He did permit them to remove it in the 4 places He protected it, however His name occurs in all versions of the Bible I believe in the form of Jah.

 

[APAK]

God didn't commit suicide. That thought comes from the same root that suggested to Adam and Eve that God would kill them if they sinned. God didn't threaten Adam when He said they would die if they made the wrong choices. It was a warning. Sin brings death. Not God. When sin was laid upon the Lamb, sin killed Him. Yours, and mine. The only way Christ could have avoided death was to refuse our sin. Then we would have been lost. Jesus risked His own eternal life for our sake.

Bro you are way off here.... 'that thought (of yours)....' is not my thought at all here. And I've never heard about this root explanation before now, and it may be you spinning a yarn.

Simple this, for those that believe that Christ was both god and man then when he died on the Cross then the so-called 2nd person, God the Son who is also believed to be God himself, DIED BY HIS OWN WILL that day :::> this god then committed SUICIDE!!!

And we know Christ was not any god the Son because he cried out to his God, his only God, his Father, 'why have you forsaken me...' He felt the presence of the Father's Spirit depart until it returned again when he was resurrected from the dead.

The TRUE God, the Father does not commit suicide, HE CANNOT. Only the triune god commits suicide as we now know and all trinitarians must acknowledge this as fact for their doctrine to 'fit.' And Christ was a man who died in faith to his Father, to the true God, as a true sacrifice to him for us all.

Ta anyway Bro for your input

 

[Johann]

No sir, you showed me a version of the Bible that said that. In line with the rest of Scripture, your translators should have used the word through as that is accurate, not by. Notice how your translators inconsistently translate the word en:
ejn En (en);
Word Origin: Greek, Preposition, Strong #: 1722

1. in, by, with etc.

KJV Word Usage and Count
in 1874
by 141
with 134
among 117
at 112
on 46
through 37
miscellaneous 321
Keep in mind the translators of your preferred version deliberately altered verses to support the doctrinal teaching of Jesus being God, rather than Jehovah. They deliberately removed His name thousands of times, and altered other verses which contradicts other passages. As I have stated in the past, it is the main reason you believe the way you do Joe, but you have to be in line with Scripture for salvation sir.

Colossians 1:16
All things (ta panta). The universe as in Rom_11:35, a well-known philosophical phrase. It is repeated at the end of the verse.
In him were created (en autōi ektisthē).

and is a complete denial of the Gnostic philosophy....which I suspect you hold

The whole of creative activity is summed up in Christ including the angels in heaven and everything on earth.

God wrought through “the Son of his love.” All earthly dignities are included.

Paul now gives the reason (hoti, for) for the primacy of Christ in the work of creation (Col_1:16f.). It is the constative aorist passive indicative ektisthē (from ktizō, old verb, to found, to create (Rom_1:25).

This central activity of Christ in the work of creation is presented also in Joh_1:3; Heb_1:2
​

Have been created (ektistai). Perfect passive indicative of ktizō, “stand created,” “remain created.” The permanence of the universe rests, then, on Christ far more than on gravity. It is a Christo-centric universe.


Through him (di' autou).

As the intermediate and sustaining agent. He had already used en autōi (in him) as the sphere of activity.
And unto him (kai eis auton).

This is the only remaining step to take and Paul takes it (1Co_15:28) Eph_1:10 for similar use of en autōi of Christ and in Col_1:19, Col_1:20 again we have en autōi, di' autou, eis auton used of Christ. See note on Heb_2:10 for di' hon (because of whom) and di' hou (by means of whom) applied to God concerning the universe (ta panta).

In Rom_11:35 we find ex autou kai di' autou kai eis auton ta panta referring to God. But

Paul does not use ex in this connection of Christ, but only en, dia, and eis. See the same distinction preserved in 1Co_8:6 (ex of God, dia, of Christ).

Col 1:16 οτι εν αυτω εκτισθη τα παντα τα εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης τα ορατα και τα αορατα ειτε θρονοι ειτε κυριοτητες ειτε αρχαι ειτε εξουσιαι τα παντα δι αυτου και εις αυτον εκτισται

Are you a Gnostic? Wouldn't surprise me.
J.

 

[Waiting on him]

Act 2:27 For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption.

Act 2:27 "Because you will not abandon the nefesh (soul) of me to destruction nor will you give your Chasid [T.N. i.e., Moshiach the ultimate Chasid] to see corruption.")
OJB

Corruption


diaphthora
dee-af-thor-ah’
From G1311; decay: - corruption.
LXX related word(s)
H2254 chaval
H2256 chevel
H4073 madchephot
H4341 makhov
H7843 shachat pi.,hi.


Ra’ah
- Phonetic: raw-aw’
- Definition:
1. to see, look at, inspect, perceive, consider
a. (Qal)
1. to see
2. to see, perceive
3. to see, have vision
4. to look at, see, regard, look after, see after, learn about, observe, watch, look upon, look out, find out
5. to see, observe, consider, look at, give attention to, discern, distinguish
6. to look at, gaze at
b. (Niphal)
1. to appear, present oneself
2. to be seen
3. to be visible
c. (Pual) to be seen
d. (Hiphil)



Psa 16:10 כִּ֤י ׀ for לֹא־ Nor תַעֲזֹ֣ב For thou wilt not leave נַפְשִׁ֣י my soul לִשְׁא֑וֹל in hell לֹֽא־ Nor תִתֵּ֥ן neither wilt thou suffer חֲ֝סִידְךָ֗ thine Holy One לִרְא֥וֹת to see שָֽׁחַת׃ corruption

1. to cause to see, show
2. to cause to look intently at, behold, cause to gaze at
e. (Hophal)
1. to be caused to see, be shown
2. to be exhibited to
f. (Hithpael) to look at each other, face
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 2095
- Part(s) of speech: Verb
- Strong’s: A primitive root; to see literally or figuratively (in numerous applications direct and implied transitively intransitively and causatively): - advise self appear approve behold X certainly consider discern (make to) enjoy have experience gaze take heed X indeed X joyfully lo look (on one another one on another one upon another out up upon) mark meet X be near perceive present provide regard (have) respect (fore- cause to let) see (-r -m one another) shew (self) X sight of others (e-) spy stare X surely X think view visions.
Total KJV Occurrences: 1308

Thine holy one...not to see/experience corruption/decay...

You say, "Yes, He did!"

And you flat out contradict what stands written in Scripture?
J.

Why you think it is no one recognized Jesus upon his resurrection?

 

[Brakelite]

And I've never heard about this root explanation before now, and it may be you spinning a yarn.

Why do you think Adam and Eve hid themselves in the garden after eating the fruit? They said why, 'because we were afraid'. Of who? God? Yes, but not because of anything He said, but because Satan had instilled in them doubt as to God's care for them. So they thought He was going to kill them. That mindset hasn't changed over the last 6000 years. People are still afraid of God because of their sin.

God the Son who is also believed to be God himself, DIED BY HIS OWN WILL that day :::> this god then committed SUICIDE!!!

I thought God was immortal, so He cannot die. But because the attributes of divinity that belonged to Christ were inherited, they were His to do with according to His own will. He didn't will to die, but He did will to relinquish immortality. His Father couldn't give up immortality because it is inherent to God's nature. But the Son, having those same attributes and therefore worthy of being called God and worshipped as God, could for a season lay them aside. So He could die. He offered His life a ransom for many. Sin offerings required a priest in the OT. The victim was killed by the penitent sinner. And sinners killed Jesus. You and me. Yes, those Jews and Romans were still guilty of murder, but Jesus died for one reason. He gave His life. He didn't kill Himself. As He said to Pilate, "you would have no power over Me except it come from above". Even on the cross, Satan knew He could step down at any time. He tried to encourage that very thing through the meeting mob. One word from Jesus, and thousands of angels would have destroyed every last man in Jerusalem if necessary. But Jesus gave up Spirit...His life.

 

[Johann]

But the Son, having those same attributes and therefore worthy of being called God and worshipped as God, could for a season lay them aside.

This is referred to as the Kenosis @Brakelite..of what did Christ empty Himself or laid aside?
His immortality?
Or His divine prerogative to receive angelic worship and adoration?
J.

 

[Johann]

But Jesus gave up Spirit...His life.

Christ died in His sarxi, since Elohim cannot die
J.

 

[Waiting on him]

Christ died in His sarxi, since Elohim cannot die
J.

So are you now saying that Jesus actually didn’t really taste of death? Okay

 

[Johann]

So are you now saying that Jesus actually didn’t really taste of death? Okay

When you are grown up and want to dialogue, lets do this.
J

 

[Waiting on him]

When you are grown up and want to dialogue, lets do this.
J

Well, you have too see how preposterous this thread has became.
In the plan of redemption illustration with Abraham, why didn’t God tell Abraham to kill himself, why his firstborn?

 

[robert derrick]

Frankly Rob, I believe Jehovah protects His word sir, I see how He prevented the translators of the KJV from removing it completely, and after we (and others) made His name abundantly known throughout the earth, He did permit them to remove it in the 4 places He protected it, however His name occurs in all versions of the Bible I believe in the form of Jah.

however His name occurs in all versions of the Bible I believe in the form of Jah.

Yehovah is throughout the OT. There is no "I believe in the form of" hope to it. The nature of knowledge pride is to think we are really special, because we one of the few elite that think we have found something that most other people can't see or understand. There is no hidden name of 'jehovah' written in NT Scripture. Neither is Rembrandt secretly revealing the Holy Grail of Magdalene's womb that Jesus coupled with as a man.

There is no jehovah code in the NT. If Yehovah were still the name of the Lord God, then that name would be everywhere in the NT as in the Old. You know, like the name of Jesus is.

None of you have any credibility anymore. There remain these proofs that you haven't even tried to answer.

1. Jesus has made all things, and nothing is ever made without Him. And the LORD God of Israel is our Maker.

2. You say the word was with God, and the word was a god. This perversion of the Greek becomes direct contradiction to the LORD God declaring there is no god with Him, including all gods that have not made anything will perish.

Your falsely made christ and god called jehovah will perish.

3. Your jehovah has never fulfilled any promised prophesy the LORD made of Himself on earth. Scripture shows Jesus has and will.

4. Jesus Christ is the Word of life and eternal life manifested on earth. The true God is that eternal life, the Son Jesus Christ.

5. Jesus is the name above every name that is ever named by God in Scripture, including His name Yehovah.

6. The Son is to be honored as the Father, and if not then neither the Father nor the Son is being honored: As God.

You are trying to honor a false father called jehovah, even as you give lip service honor to a false son and christ as a god.

Honoring the Son as a god is honoring the Father as a god: foolish lip service.

The only reason I have for your refusing Jesus Christ the true God and eternal life, is because idolatry is much more intellectually stimulating than simply believing the truth. Especially when it make someone feel like the really special hidden minority.

As I said, the Bible is the only book in the world where so many people have spent so much time trying to change what the Author is simply saying.

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Johann]

Well, you have too see how preposterous this thread has became.
In the plan of redemption illustration with Abraham, why didn’t God tell Abraham to kill himself, why his firstborn?

Preponderating...do you believe Christ Jesus is Lord, King and Priest..that He is your

μεγαλου θεου και σωτηρος ημων ιησου χριστου..the great God and soteros Jesus Christ?
Hinei!
J.

 

[APAK]

This is referred to as the Kenosis @Brakelite..of what did Christ empty Himself or laid aside?
His immortality?
Or His divine prerogative to receive angelic worship and adoration?
J.

Oh yes, I'm glad you reminded me of this this one Johann, and there are more kluge fixes that had to made along the way.

It's the 3rd major added corruption for the mockery of the true nature of the true God by the pagans honoring their doctrine of their Trinity. All these inventions were sequentially made upon finding awkward scripture that did not fit into their triune god model and idol.

1. Incarnation, 2 Hypostatic Union 2. Kenosis are three major ones...and there are others to keep this grand, pagan doctrine afloat.

Kenosis is a ridiculous impossible concept of Christ, that he as the so-called god the son some time, somehow 'pulled out' his so-called divine nature of part of the triune god, before his conception, before his birth, on the path to see John the Baptist, at his baptism, after his trials in the desert? And then he somehow placed this divine nature somewhere for safekeeping, maybe with his compadre, the so-called god the father, to then reunite with it again after his death when this god the father might have given it back so he could be once again be the complete and divine god the son and thus be reunited with the other two persons in the clan as the triune god again. Talk about a yarn...I guess that's how they must teach it in kindergarten.....lol

And Philippians 2:7 and its surrounding scripture and local context does not remotely speak to any of this yarn of Kenosis of spiritual mysticism that borders on Gnosticism, indeed.

In fact Eastern Orthodoxy Catholicism in comparison to RC and mainline Protestantism do agree in the main, with my following take against this obvious yarn.

MANY believers in the Son, of God the Father 'empty themselves' and yield their wills and spirits as servants to the will of the Father. They yield them and consider themselves nothing in comparison the the Father they adore and live for every day. And because we have a chunk of the HS within us, we also as Christ did, do not consider grasping at the thought of being equal with the Father. Although we grow like the Father, as his image also, because of the spirits of truth and the Son within us. We begin to share in the divinity of the Father as the Son does in volume...2 Peter

As Christ in his life on earth, and as believers, this 'emptying of self' occurs over the years starting from the new in Christ, in the Spirit and to maturity. It never ends until immortality is reached.

 

[Johann]

And because we have a chunk of the HS within us,

I stopped reading your entire nonsensical post, you don't believe what you read in scriptures, that is very obvious...still trying to find "a chunk? of the HS?..." in my Bible, that is how you guys water down the scriptures with worldly
rhetoric's, no kratos, vain and empty philosophical words and you don't have the respect due to the Holy Spirit/Ruach ha Kodesh to even type His S'mo.
J.

 

[robert derrick]

Why do you think Adam and Eve hid themselves in the garden after eating the fruit? They said why, 'because we were afraid'. Of who? God? Yes, but not because of anything He said, but because Satan had instilled in them doubt as to God's care for them. So they thought He was going to kill them. That mindset hasn't changed over the last 6000 years. People are still afraid of God because of their sin.

I thought God was immortal, so He cannot die. But because the attributes of divinity that belonged to Christ were inherited, they were His to do with according to His own will. He didn't will to die, but He did will to relinquish immortality. His Father couldn't give up immortality because it is inherent to God's nature. But the Son, having those same attributes and therefore worthy of being called God and worshipped as God, could for a season lay them aside. So He could die. He offered His life a ransom for many. Sin offerings required a priest in the OT. The victim was killed by the penitent sinner. And sinners killed Jesus. You and me. Yes, those Jews and Romans were still guilty of murder, but Jesus died for one reason. He gave His life. He didn't kill Himself. As He said to Pilate, "you would have no power over Me except it come from above". Even on the cross, Satan knew He could step down at any time. He tried to encourage that very thing through the meeting mob. One word from Jesus, and thousands of angels would have destroyed every last man in Jerusalem if necessary. But Jesus gave up Spirit...His life.

Yes, but not because of anything He said, but because Satan had instilled in them doubt as to God's care for them.

They were fearful and afraid of the righteous judgment of God, which is not the fear of the Lord that chooses the good and refuses the evil:

And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

What the father of lies did was lie against God, and when they believe him rather than God, they chose to do evil rather than continue doing good. And so like the devil, they also became fearful of His judgment and fiery indignation, since they were not repenting.

They didn't just doubt His love for them, but believed the lie of the devil that he didn't ever love them at all, but was only a despot lording it over them, so that they wouldn't ever dare to be like Him.

Which in truth, they were already made like Him and being like Him in choosing to do good and not the evil. Afterall, the LORD has always kept His own word He ever commanded to man, both in the garden not to eat of that fruit, and in the days of His own flesh not to transgress His law.

They made themselves fearful and unbelieving of God by sinning and not repenting of their sin: those chose to be friends of the devil and stayed that way:

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

That mindset hasn't changed over the last 6000 years. People are still afraid of God because of their sin.

Unrepentant people are afraid of God because of their sin. Not all people have forsaken the fear of the Lord and remain fearful and unbelieving.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But because the attributes of divinity that belonged to Christ were inherited,

'Attributes of divinity' is the carnal mind trying to sound spiritual with knowledge of the 'divine': Jesus was the Word of God made flesh.

He didn't inherit anything from God when made flesh: He was God come down from heaven to become flesh.

Jesus is the eternal life inheritance of God. He is the promised seed of God.

The only thing the Lord God of Israel inherited after living without sin unto death is a name above every name: Jesus.

Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.