The Nature of Jesus Christ

[Johann]

Thanks.

I haven’t met many people who have said they believe God separated from himself. Those who did were trinitarians who believe their deity is three selfs, not one self. Some of them said God died; some of them said that God didn’t die.

And now to drop the bombshell @Matthias, I firmly hold to the Triune God, three in Person yet echad, not yachid.
J.

 

[Matthias]

And now to drop the bombshell @Matthias, I firmly hold to the Triune God, three in Person yet echad, not yachid.
J.

Why do you think that’s a bombshell?

 

[Johann]

“Christ is a human but not a human person.”

(Encyclopedia.com, “Person (in theology)”)

Person (in theology) | Encyclopedia.com

Not a human person/nature Matthias?
A phantom, emanation or is/was the Logos just in the nous of YHVH?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
J.

 

[Johann]

Why do you think that’s a bombshell?

Are we on the same page then?
J.

 

[face2face]

...continuing

Lets talk about the hypostatic union shall we? Can the forum members demonstrate that this concept is purely Biblical?

Important: I don't want to you show me the word in the Bible as it is briefly used in Hebrews 1:3, however not with Trinitarian formula, I am wanting you to show me how you arrive at this understanding solely using Scripture.

I think we may find this hypostatic union only finds expression through extra-biblical support and therefore lacks all inspired weight.

How do you arrive at it?

 

[Matthias]

Not a human person/nature Matthias?
A phantom, emanation or is/was the Logos just in the nous of YHVH?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
J.

marks disagreed with historical orthodox trinitarianism. Do you also?

 

[Johann]

Is there any possibility whatsoever of a discussion here of the concept of Christ being both God and man without quoting the Bible?

The scriptures and Christ Jesus are indissolubly yachid, no need to divorce the scriptures from the Christ.
J.

 

[Matthias]

Are we on the same page then?
J.

About what?

From your posts it’s obvious that you’re a trinitarian.

 

[Johann]

marks disagreed with historical orthodox trinitarianism. Do you also?

The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity

If @marks disagrees then he is clearly wrong (said this in love) since this is the way I believe, but the topic is not about the Triune God here @Matthias.

J.

 

[Johann]

About what?

From your posts it’s obvious that you’re a trinitarian.

Anything wrong with that?
But we are veering off the topic
J.

 

[Johann]

This is the standard objection to the incarnation, I think. If you are this, then obviously you cannot be that. I don't think that's the correct answer.

Much love!

I simply cannot believe how people on this forum don't believe that Christ Jesus was human @marks, with a human nature, in our likeness..has the world gone mad!
First they attack the Deity of Messiah, and now this?
Listen to this

J.

 

[Johann]

I quoted Schaff (see post #54) to clarify what I think it is.



The Bible shows Jesus is a human person and his God is the one God.

Forgetting that Christ Jesus ever existing as God and in the Shema you will find the complex unity in echad, not a numerical one as in yachid @Matthias...you are veering off topic..


I and my Father are one — Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying. “Are” is in the masculine gender - “we (two persons) are”; while “one” is neuter - “one thing.” Perhaps “one interest” expresses, as nearly as may be, the purport of the saying.

There seemed to be some contradiction between His saying they had been given by His Father into His own hands, out of which they could not be plucked, and then saying that none could pluck them out of His Father’s hands, as if they had not been given out of them. “Neither have they,” says He; “though He has given them to Me, they are as much in His own almighty hands as ever - they cannot be, and when given to Me they are not, given away from Himself; for HE AND I HAVE ALL IN COMMON.” Thus it will be seen, that, though oneness of essence is not the precise thing here affirmed, that truth is the basis of what is affirmed, without which it would not be true. And Augustine was right in saying the “We are” condemns the Sabellians (who denied the distinction of Persons in the Godhead), while the “one” (as explained) condemns the Arians (who denied the unity of their essence).

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
J.

 

[Matthias]

The Orthodox Doctrine of the Trinity

If @marks disagrees then he is clearly wrong (said this in love) since this is the way I believe, but the topic is not about the Triune God here @Matthias.

J.

He and I agree that Jesus was a human person. Historical orthodox trinitarianism asserts that Jesus was only one person, a divine person only, not a human person. If you agree with historical orthodox trinitarianism then you assert that Jesus was not a human person.

I find it nearly impossible to separate a discussion of the nature of the God-man from the Triune God.

 

[Johann]

The scriptures are not difficult to grasp as to Who Jesus is. He was Word of God made flesh, sent to do His will. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He had to do this in order to condemn sin in the flesh. He came in a created flesh body, and yet He knew no sin.

Romans 8:3
[3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

In whom? In Christ.

Below, we further see where it was told to Joseph the nature of the son who would be brought forth.

Matthew 1:20-23
[20]But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
[21]And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
[22]Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
[23]Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

JESUS.... Savior.
Emmanuel... God with us. We can plainly understand by this that Jesus was/is God.
Conceived by the Holy Spirit (who is the Spirit of God). And no, this was not a sexual encounter. God is Creator. He can create a body in the womb of a virgin! And He did exactly that.

AMEN!!!
J.

 

[Matthias]

Anything wrong with that?
But we are veering off the topic
J.

I just asked why you thought it was a bombshell for a trinitarian to announce that he’s a trinitarian.

Are you asking if I think there is anything wrong with being a trinitarian?

 

[Johann]

He and I agree that Jesus was a human person. Historical orthodox trinitarianism asserts that Jesus was only one person, a divine person only, not a human person. If you agree with historical orthodox trinitarianism then you assert that Jesus was not a human person.

I find it nearly impossible to separate a discussion of the nature of the God-man from the Triune God.

Christ Jesus was fully Man and fully God
J.

 

[Matthias]

Forgetting that Christ Jesus ever existing as God and in the Shema you will find the complex unity in echad, not a numerical one as in yachid @Matthias...you are veering off topic..


I and my Father are one — Our language admits not of the precision of the original in this great saying. “Are” is in the masculine gender - “we (two persons) are”; while “one” is neuter - “one thing.” Perhaps “one interest” expresses, as nearly as may be, the purport of the saying.

There seemed to be some contradiction between His saying they had been given by His Father into His own hands, out of which they could not be plucked, and then saying that none could pluck them out of His Father’s hands, as if they had not been given out of them. “Neither have they,” says He; “though He has given them to Me, they are as much in His own almighty hands as ever - they cannot be, and when given to Me they are not, given away from Himself; for HE AND I HAVE ALL IN COMMON.” Thus it will be seen, that, though oneness of essence is not the precise thing here affirmed, that truth is the basis of what is affirmed, without which it would not be true. And Augustine was right in saying the “We are” condemns the Sabellians (who denied the distinction of Persons in the Godhead), while the “one” (as explained) condemns the Arians (who denied the unity of their essence).

Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
OJB

Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
J.

When counting in Hebrew, the numeral one (1) is echad.

One means one, not more than one.

 

[Matthias]

Christ Jesus was fully Man and fully God
J.

So says trinitarianism. Trinitarianism also says that Christ Jesus is not a human person.

Do you believe Christ Jesus himself is a trinitarian?

 

[Johann]

I just asked why you thought it was a bombshell for a trinitarian to announce that he’s a trinitarian.

Are you asking if I think there is anything wrong with being a trinitarian?

Yes, that is what I'm asking.
Listen to this and see how the world views Messiah, I haven't even touched on the Modern Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox Judaism

J.

 

[Johann]

So says trinitarianism. Trinitarianism also says that Christ Jesus is not a human person.

Do you believe Christ Jesus himself is a trinitarian?

Don't deflect or resorting to circular reasoning.
Third time, you are veering off topic...

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J.