The Nature of Jesus Christ
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Johann
Well-Known Member
See the NET trinitarian commentary?
Are you serious?
Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian, is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.
In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:26
Acts — Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter — 1 Pet. 1:2
Jude — vv. 20-21
A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27; 3:22; 11:7
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17)
"The Angel of the Lord" was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in Isa. 48:16; 61:1
The Deity of Jesus and the personality of the Spirit caused problems for the strict, monotheistic early believers.
Tertullian — subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen — subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius — denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism — believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God as Father, then Son, and then Spirit
The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate
There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
“Let Us make” The form (BDB 793, KB 889) is Qal IMPERFECT, but is used in a COHORTATIVE sense. There has been much discussion over the PLURAL “us” (cf. Gen_3:22; Gen_11:7). Philo and Eben Ezra say it is “the plural of majesty,” but this grammatical form does not occur until much later in Jewish literary history (NET Bible says it does not occur with VERBS, p. 5); Rashi says that it refers to the heavenly court (cf. 1Ki_22:19-23; Job_1:6-12; Job_2:1-6; Isa_6:8), but this cannot imply that angels had a part in creation, nor that they have the divine image.
Others assume that it is an incipient form of the concept of a Triune God.
Interesting is the fact that in the Mesopotamian accounts of creation the gods (usually linked to individual cities) are always contending with one another but here not only is monotheism evident but even in the few PLURAL expressions there is harmony and not capricious discontent.
Problematic, is it not?
From Utley.
J.
So let’s say approximately 960 occurrences.
The echad God of Israel is numerically the one (1) God of Israel.
Even trinitarianism asserts belief in only one (1) God, not more than one (1) God.
Now, let’s look at the Hebrew phrase echad elohim.
Where is the plurality in that phrase?
It isn’t in echad. Is it in elohim?
Yes, I’m serious.
You don’t think the trinitarian scholars who provided the commentary for NET were serious?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Listen @Matthias, I have already switched off into another mode when you said Elohim conversed with the angels...I guess Moshe listened to 'voices' foreign to the ears upon writing the Book which is impossible for God is not a man that He should lie..and you have veered off the topic under discussion and...
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
Tit 1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tit 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
And... But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
And...
For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Shalom
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Let's see where you will look this up, do tell
What's the difference between echad and yachid and why?
Do it with your unitarian ( monotheism) glasses off.
J.
I didn’t switch off when the trinitarian commentators said it. You’ve not only switched off from me, you’ve switched off from trinitarian scholars and theologians who disagree with you.
Johann
Well-Known Member
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Shalom mate
J.
There is no plurality in echad but echad can, and in some cases does, modify a collective noun.
Is elohim a collective noun?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Why? Couldn’t you post it yourself?
Strong's Hebrew: 3173. יָחִיד (yachid) -- only, only one, solitary
P.S. I might as well post a Lexicon on echad while I’m at it.
H259 - 'eḥāḏ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv)
Please note that the Lexicon identifies it as a numeral.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Genesis 1:1
Even before leaving the first verse, a serious student of the Bible is confronted with a difficulty - unless he is willing to believe what the Bible consistently shows from the beginning to the end. The fourth word in the Bible is "God," Elohim in Hebrew. But that takes some explaining. Elohim is God - plural. "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." For an English-speaking person, this is confirmed in Genesis 1:26, where the translators finally used plural pronouns ("Us" and "Our") to conform to the plural noun antecedent, Elohim.
The translators recognized in verse 26 that Elohim - "God" - was speaking to somebody, and He was speaking to someone who was just like Him, which is why the word Us is used. They were forced into using a plural pronoun. "Let Us make man in Our image." In fact, Elohim is used 66 times in a row at the beginning of the Bible before any other Hebrew word is translated into the English "God." That occurs in Genesis 6:5 when finally another word is used for God.
Someone reading this beginning in Hebrew would have to be impressed that the author of this book was trying to get something across to the reader that "Gods" (plural) did everything - not an individual but a least two. Elohim is used in the Old Testament 2,570 times, and every usage is plural - "Gods."
As shown by this plurality, the God Family clearly consists of more than one Being, or more than one Person or Personality.
John W. Ritenbaugh
There goes your 'Elohim conversed with the angels'
J.
If you believe that elohim is plural in meaning then it’s not unreasonable to ask that you translate it as plural in English. Will you do it?
In French, "vous" is the plural form of "you" -- but also is used as the formal "you" referencing a single person. Accordingly one cannot tell, without more, whether the word "vous" refers to one or more than one.
I realize that Elohim isn't French, but I'm just noting that different languages may have different usages, plural or singular, for the same noun or pronoun.
I realize that Elohim isn't French, but I'm just noting that different languages may have different usages, plural or singular, for the same noun or pronoun.
Elohim can be a collective noun. Plurality is found in the collective noun.
Elohim isn’t a collective noun when used in reference to the God of Israel.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Even you should see there is a problem here, yachid is not echad and echad is not yachid and ...
Genesis 1:5: "And the evening and the morning were the first day."
Genesis 1:9: "under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry"
Genesis 2:11: "The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land"
Genesis 2:21: "Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, the flesh"
Genesis 2:24: "and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one"
Genesis 3:22: "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good"
Genesis 4:19: "unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah."
Genesis 8:5: "until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops"
Genesis 8:13: "And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month,"
Genesis 8:13: "and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up"
Genesis 10:25: "two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth"
Genesis 11:1: "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech."
Genesis 11:1: "was of one language, and of one speech."
Genesis 11:6: "said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this"
Genesis 11:6: "the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin"
Genesis 19:9: "Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge:"
Genesis 21:15: "the child under one of the shrubs."
Genesis 22:2: "him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of."
Genesis 26:10: "What is this thou hast done unto us? one of the people might lightly have lain with"
Genesis 27:38: "said unto his father, Hast thou but one blessing, my father? bless me, even me"
Genesis 27:44: "And tarry with him a few days, until thy brother's fury"
Genesis 27:45: "why should I be deprived also of you both in one day?"
Genesis 29:20: "years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love"
Genesis 32:8: "Esau come to the one company, and smite it, then the other company which is left"
Interesting, is it not?
J.
Elohim is always plural in form but can be either singular or plural in meaning. When the context shows that it is plural in meaning then it is translated as plural in English, gods.
Yachid is never used in scripture in reference to the God of Israel; echad is. There is only 1 God. Everything else is idols.
You will find many examples in scripture of echad meaning 1.
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