"This Generation" declared by Jesus.

[ScottA]

As far as I know, none of the apostles were crucified Scott, so the were there meant that all of the holy ones then, as well as all of them in the future "were" crucified along with Christ, through his crucifixion, correct? Therefore not only was it in the past sense, as you saw it was also present, and would apply to all anointed Christians even today sir. In fact, because of that sacrifice, all who gain life, will do so through that saving act.

There--now you have said it by your own words.

Yes, each anointed Christian (or person born [again] of the spirit of God) was crucified with Christ--but "each one in his own order" as Paul said, and I, and now you.

But this precedence for the correct order of things and times--truly changes many things. That same use of past tense wording is even plainly there in many passages and regarding many topics. That is what I have been saying.

 

[Robert Gwin]

There--now you have said it by your own words.

Yes, each anointed Christian (or person born [again] of the spirit of God) was crucified with Christ--but "each one in his own order" as Paul said, and I, and now you.

But this precedence for the correct order of things and times--truly changes many things. That same use of past tense wording is even plainly there in many passages and regarding many topics. That is what I have been saying.

No sir, most Christians are not born again. Born again is a term that is applied to those who have been anointed by holy spirit to serve as Kings and Priests in the heavenly Kingdom of God. You must be unaware of the earthly citizens of that Kingdom Scott, the other sheep which are not numbered in the Bible. Mat 5:5; Ps 37:29

 

[ScottA]

No sir, most Christians are not born again. Born again is a term that is applied to those who have been anointed by holy spirit to serve as Kings and Priests in the heavenly Kingdom of God. You must be unaware of the earthly citizens of that Kingdom Scott, the other sheep which are not numbered in the Bible. Mat 5:5; Ps 37:29

It is correct that all who call or consider themselves "Christian" are not born again of the spirit of God, but those who are reign with Christ.

But those "other sheep" were those not "of the house of Israel" according to Jesus, meaning of the gentiles. Why is it that you bring them up? Is it because they are those of whom Paul spoke, saying, "but each one in his own order?" This is true, but is also true of "each" and every "one" who is born and dies "each in his own order" from the beginning to the end of the age. Not that all come to repentance, but all are raised up the last day ("but each in his own order").

Is it clear to you then that since Adam, each one down through all the ages has and does come in his own order from life to death; and also death to life for those who pass from death to life in Christ in God--and that this is the order of events, for which Christ referred to Himself as the Beginning and the End and also the First and the Last--that what was before the foundation of the world, came to fruition in Christ during His Day and hour, the fulfillment of all things according to what is written?

 

[Robert Gwin]

It is correct that all who call or consider themselves "Christian" are not born again of the spirit of God, but those who are reign with Christ.

But those "other sheep" were those not "of the house of Israel" according to Jesus, meaning of the gentiles. Why is it that you bring them up? Is it because they are those of whom Paul spoke, saying, "but each one in his own order?" This is true, but is also true of "each" and every "one" who is born and dies "each in his own order" from the beginning to the end of the age. Not that all come to repentance, but all are raised up the last day ("but each in his own order").

Is it clear to you then that since Adam, each one down through all the ages has and does come in his own order from life to death; and also death to life for those who pass from death to life in Christ in God--and that this is the order of events, for which Christ referred to Himself as the Beginning and the End and also the First and the Last--that what was before the foundation of the world, came to fruition in Christ during His Day and hour, the fulfillment of all things according to what is written?

You do realize that the Israel of God are gathered from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, correct Scott? Rev 5:9,10 Gentiles is a term that many apply to the other sheep, which is fine, and you are correct, they will not reign with Christ, nor reside with him either, they inherit the earth.

 

[ScottA]

You do realize that the Israel of God are gathered from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, correct Scott? Rev 5:9,10 Gentiles is a term that many apply to the other sheep, which is fine, and you are correct, they will not reign with Christ, nor reside with him either, they inherit the earth.

The scriptures define the two folds that Christ must bring (the house of Israel and the other sheep) as "first the Jew and then the Greek." But you speak of the end result of all including those grafted in...that's fine. Nonetheless, in the order presented in the scriptures, Israel are "the dead in Christ" of whom Christ is "the Last", who precede those who are "alive and remain" ("the living in Christ") of whom Christ is "the First" (Firstfruits), which only came after Christ sent the Holy Spirit during these times of the gentiles, making them "the last who are first." It is to those of these times of the gentiles that Christ comes into making them Priests and Kings during His reign which began when the Father gave Him all authority, and continues until the fullness of these times of the gentiles. It is "the dead in Christ" (Israel) "the first" who "do not live again until the times are fulfilled. This is the first resurrection." Revelation 20:5

If you have other information--let's hear it, that we can agree upon the truth. But if it is not biblical information agreeing with the scriptures, do not present it, but rather hear what is and does. And if you would like any explanation of points made, I am happy to oblige.

 

[Davy]

The 'generation' Jesus was pointing to His command to learn a parable of the fig tree is SO EASY to understand. Those in confusion about it simply listen to false prophets who do not want you to understand it in its simplicity.

Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV

What's those "all these things" that Lord Jesus was talking about in that Matthew 24 Chapter?

That is not a difficult question. Lord Jesus was giving His Church things to WATCH for leading up to His future return and our gathering to Him!

The very LAST SIGN He gave was that of His coming AFTER the tribulation to gather His saints. EASY PEASY!

In all, He gave 7 main SIGNS of the end of this world that are the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, and 7 Vials of His Book of Revelation. The SIGNS in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 directly parallel the Seals of Revelation Chapter 6.

So what's "these things" again, that Jesus was talking about? Those SIGNS of the end leading up to His future return and gathering of His Church. He commanded us to WATCH those things too.

So let's see if my brain is working... since Jesus said the generation that sees "all these things" (those SIGNS) will NOT pass until all "these things" (SIGNS) are fulfilled, and since His coming to gather His saints is the LAST SIGN in "these things", then duh... in what generation will that happen to?????????????????

THE LAST GENERATION OF HIS FUTURE 2ND COMING!

Easy peasy!

 

[Robert Gwin]

The scriptures define the two folds that Christ must bring (the house of Israel and the other sheep) as "first the Jew and then the Greek." But you speak of the end result of all including those grafted in...that's fine. Nonetheless, in the order presented in the scriptures, Israel are "the dead in Christ" of whom Christ is "the Last", who precede those who are "alive and remain" ("the living in Christ") of whom Christ is "the First" (Firstfruits), which only came after Christ sent the Holy Spirit during these times of the gentiles, making them "the last who are first." It is to those of these times of the gentiles that Christ comes into making them Priests and Kings during His reign which began when the Father gave Him all authority, and continues until the fullness of these times of the gentiles. It is "the dead in Christ" (Israel) "the first" who "do not live again until the times are fulfilled. This is the first resurrection." Revelation 20:5

If you have other information--let's hear it, that we can agree upon the truth. But if it is not biblical information agreeing with the scriptures, do not present it, but rather hear what is and does. And if you would like any explanation of points made, I am happy to oblige.

I think I explained it very understandably Scott. You quoted Rev 20:5 which applies to the other sheep sir, they do not come to life until the thousand years have ended as they must pass the test of satan's release, and when they do they will be granted life, those who do not pass will be cast into the lake of fire with satan, and then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to Jehovah, as the new earth will be fully established.

 

[ScottA]

I think I explained it very understandably Scott. You quoted Rev 20:5 which applies to the other sheep sir, they do not come to life until the thousand years have ended as they must pass the test of satan's release, and when they do they will be granted life, those who do not pass will be cast into the lake of fire with satan, and then Jesus will hand the Kingdom back to Jehovah, as the new earth will be fully established.

Okay, these things very much agree.

There is perhaps one clarification that should be made: That Revelation 20:5 refers to both Israel (who do not live again until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled), and also to the "other sheep" who are "alive" by the spirit of God "and remain" until those same times are fulfilled. That test you mention refers to these same times, which is the time that Satan is bound from Israel, but loosed to the gentiles. Most consider these to be separate times, but they both occur at the same time, only different for each of the two folds.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Okay, these things very much agree.

There is perhaps one clarification that should be made: That Revelation 20:5 refers to both Israel (who do not live again until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled), and also to the "other sheep" who are "alive" by the spirit of God "and remain" until those same times are fulfilled. That test you mention refers to these same times, which is the time that Satan is bound from Israel, but loosed to the gentiles. Most consider these to be separate times, but they both occur at the same time, only different for each of the two folds.

We separate here sir, the Israel of God are those of verse 6, when they were resurrected, they were resurrected to immortality, no I do not understand that, but that is what the Bible teaches. The rest of us, including all Christians from the nation of Israel who are not part of the Israel of God fall into the category of verse 5 and will not gain life until they pass the test of satans release.

 

[ScottA]

We separate here sir, the Israel of God are those of verse 6, when they were resurrected, they were resurrected to immortality, no I do not understand that, but that is what the Bible teaches. The rest of us, including all Christians from the nation of Israel who are not part of the Israel of God fall into the category of verse 5 and will not gain life until they pass the test of satans release.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
​

The first resurrection referred to here speaks rather of "the last who are first" Matthew 20:16, which are those who Christ comes to last, but are first to be born of the spirit of God...meaning not Israel, but the born again of the gentiles. Without considering what Jesus spoke of regarding the first and the last, one could easily have these things backwards. Do you see that?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
​

The first resurrection referred to here speaks rather of "the last who are first" Matthew 20:16, which are those who Christ comes to last, but are first to be born of the spirit of God...meaning not Israel, but the born again of the gentiles. Without considering what Jesus spoke of regarding the first and the last, one could easily have these things backwards. Do you see that?

We believe differently Scott, we believe when the second resurrection happens, the last ones who died will be resurrect first, this makes sense as those who died earlier are unaware of how time progressed, those latest ones will be teaching others basically.

 

[ScottA]

We believe differently Scott, we believe when the second resurrection happens, the last ones who died will be resurrect first, this makes sense as those who died earlier are unaware of how time progressed, those latest ones will be teaching others basically.

That is correct...but it would appear that you do not have the "how" or the details correct.

Meaning, that just as Jesus was first resurrected in the flesh and secondly to the Father whom is spirit--the first resurrection occurs with the born again in the flesh (just as Christ the firstfruits did), and then the second resurrection is also like that of Christ, which was unto the Spirit, which is to say, to be with God, as Christ also went secondly to be with the Father. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.​

 

[Robert Gwin]

That is correct...but it would appear that you do not have the "how" or the details correct.

Meaning, that just as Jesus was first resurrected in the flesh and secondly to the Father whom is spirit--the first resurrection occurs with the born again in the flesh (just as Christ the firstfruits did), and then the second resurrection is also like that of Christ, which was unto the Spirit, which is to say, to be with God, as Christ also went secondly to be with the Father. As it is written:

1 Corinthians 15:46
However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.​

No sir, Jesus was not resurrected fleshly, however as other angels who appeared to humans he did appear fleshly. As the verse you quoted which was referring to the resurrection, the secondary is spiritual, best to read the whole context of what Paul said, especially the verse prior that stated point blank that Jesus was spiritual. He is the last Adam being referred to correct?

You likely understand that Jesus' flesh and blood were given as a sacrifice, it could not be taken back sir, otherwise there was no sacrifice. No sacrifice is recorded as being returned or renewed that I am aware of anyway.

 

[ScottA]

No sir, Jesus was not resurrected fleshly, however as other angels who appeared to humans he did appear fleshly. As the verse you quoted which was referring to the resurrection, the secondary is spiritual, best to read the whole context of what Paul said, especially the verse prior that stated point blank that Jesus was spiritual. He is the last Adam being referred to correct?

You likely understand that Jesus' flesh and blood were given as a sacrifice, it could not be taken back sir, otherwise there was no sacrifice. No sacrifice is recorded as being returned or renewed that I am aware of anyway.

So, then, you believe that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the flesh?

That is not biblical. For it was His flesh body that suffered and died; and after rising from the dead He showed his disciples that He was flesh, saying, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

As for 1 Corinthians 15:45, it does not say that He was a spirit but "became" a quickening spirit--not saying just when. Nonetheless, according to Jesus it was not at His first resurrection from the dead. Therefore, for both passages to be true, it would mean that His resurrection in the spirit was rather His ascension...which began and was seen by witness, not as spirit is seen--for spirit is not seen, but as flesh; but the end and going to the Father whom is spirit and not seen, was also witnessed as not being seen.

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

 

[Robert Gwin]

So, then, you believe that Jesus did not rise from the dead in the flesh?

That is not biblical. For it was His flesh body that suffered and died; and after rising from the dead He showed his disciples that He was flesh, saying, "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”

As for 1 Corinthians 15:45, it does not say that He was a spirit but "became" a quickening spirit--not saying just when. Nonetheless, according to Jesus it was not at His first resurrection from the dead. Therefore, for both passages to be true, it would mean that His resurrection in the spirit was rather His ascension...which began and was seen by witness, not as spirit is seen--for spirit is not seen, but as flesh; but the end and going to the Father whom is spirit and not seen, was also witnessed as not being seen.

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

I said he appeared bodily, and as you see that was not his body, correct? Who forgets what an intimate friend looks like in 3 days. All spirit beings who appear to humans appear in the flesh, as we are unable to see spirit beings. Some say they can, and some animals can for sure.

What do you teach the sacrifice was sir?

 

[ScottA]

I said he appeared bodily, and as you see that was not his body, correct? Who forgets what an intimate friend looks like in 3 days. All spirit beings who appear to humans appear in the flesh, as we are unable to see spirit beings. Some say they can, and some animals can for sure.

What do you teach the sacrifice was sir?

It would appear that you are mixing the ability of God to manifest in the ways you have stated, that is as the appearing of angels, with that which is also presented in what God has done in Christ for the resurrection to eternal life. Those are two separate acts of God, not to be confused.

The resurrection is not of angels, but of men, first born in the flesh, then in the spirit. The confusion comes in that there are two different ways that this occurs "in Christ": the first (Israel) die before salvation and the Holy Spirit is given, and therefore, not being born of the spirit they die with Christ on the cross and are raised up with Him, making them "the dead in Christ." The last (the born again of the gentiles) on the other hand, do receive the Holy Spirit and salvation before dying in the flesh, for which they are referred to as "the living in Christ." These are the "first who are last, and the last first." Perhaps confusing, but don't get bogged down in it.

Nonetheless, Christ is first raised in the flesh (proving His having conquered death) just as He demonstrated to his disciples in the upper room. Then at His ascension--that time of His going to the Father whom is spirit--He ascended into the clouds which represents a visual of entering the spirit of God...by which He also returns.

As for your question of what Jesus sacrificed...He sacrificed His body, which He did by the act of what occurred on the cross. But that is not all there is to His sacrifice. His sacrifice was His "body broken for you"...meaning, not discarded, but given. His body was given (even over the next 40 days) to his disciples, the church, who take it up again--"to live is Christ" until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. We are His body, therefore, it is written, that we "partake of Christ’s sufferings."

 

[Robert Gwin]

It would appear that you are mixing the ability of God to manifest in the ways you have states, that is as the appearing of angels, with that which is also presented in what God has done in Christ for the resurrection to eternal life. Those are two separate acts of God, not to be confused.

The resurrection is not of angels, but of men, first born in the flesh, then in the spirit. The confusion comes in that there are two different ways that this occurs "in Christ": the first (Israel) die before salvation and the Holy Spirit is given, and therefore, not being born of the spirit they die with Christ on the cross and are raised up with Him, making them "the dead in Christ." The last (the born again of the gentiles) on the other hand, do receive the Holy Spirit and salvation before dying in the flesh, for which they are referred to as "the living in Christ." These are the "first who are last, and the last first." Perhaps confusing, but don't get bogged down in it.

Nonetheless, Christ is first raised in the flesh (proving His having conquered death) just as He demonstrated to his disciples in the upper room. Then at His ascension--that time of His going to the Father whom is spirit--He ascended into the clouds which represents a visual of entering the spirit of God...by which He also returns.

As for your question of what Jesus sacrificed...He sacrificed His body, which He did by the act of what occurred on the cross. But that is not all there is to His sacrifice. His sacrifice was His "body broken for you"...meaning, not discarded, but given. His body was given (even over the next 40 days) to his disciples, the church, who take it up again--"to live is Christ" until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled. We are His body, therefore, it is written, that we "partake of Christ’s sufferings."

The Bible states he was raised a spirit being, and I agree with that Scott
(1 Peter 3:18) . . .For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

What was the sacrifice if Jesus did not actually give his flesh and blood in our behalf?

 

[ScottA]

The Bible states he was raised a spirit being, and I agree with that Scott
(1 Peter 3:18) . . .For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit.

What was the sacrifice if Jesus did not actually give his flesh and blood in our behalf?

As I said, He did give up His body, He gave it to the church.

And you are correct that He has been made alive in the spirit, just as the scriptures say--you are just wrong on the timing, which is the difference between His resurrection and His ascension.

 

[Robert Gwin]

As I said, He did give up His body, He gave it to the church.

And you are correct that He has been made alive in the spirit, just as the scriptures say--you are just wrong on the timing, which is the difference between His resurrection and His ascension.

We do word things differently sir, time alone will reveal if either of us are correct with our chronology.

 

[ScottA]

We do word things differently sir, time alone will reveal if either of us are correct with our chronology.

It is the different definitions of each of those words ("resurrection" and "ascension") that should reveal the truth. Now is the time.

It's been nice discussing it with you.