Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Do you realize that was a two-fold prophecy Scott? It had a fulfillment with the destruction of Jerusalem crica 66-70 CE, but will have a much larger fulfillment soon, encompassing the entire earth.
"This Generation" declared by Jesus.
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Do you realize that was a two-fold prophecy Scott? It had a fulfillment with the destruction of Jerusalem crica 66-70 CE, but will have a much larger fulfillment soon, encompassing the entire earth.
Well...that is the claim of you and many. But where is your proof, what do you base it on? I mean, if you are going to say that "this" means "this" and also "this other generation"--it would not have even been proper speech for a future generation. And if you believe that Jesus' "hour" which He announced did not include all that He came to accomplish, even though He said, "It is finished"...then you are going against His numerous proclamations from the start. How do you explain yourself?
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
You are already aware of the first occurrence in Jerusalem, so lets look at the second fulfillment of the last days. We believe the appointed times of the nations ended in 1914, with Jesus receiving the crown. Mat 24:3. So what happened in 1914, Jesus said v6 you would hear of wars and rumors of wars, but v7 when nation would rise against nation. A big war that would dwarf the others correct? WW#1 1914. Food shortages, late nite tv reveals the starvation rate. From internet, counter was changing as I watched:
3,335,886
People who died from hunger
In the world, this year
Earthquakes, in the news all the time
Pestilence, we are in a world wide pandemic, new diseases crop up over and over again
now read 2 Tim 3:1-5 reads like a newspaper sir, we are definitely in the last days of this world, and it shocks me that you cannot see the signs Scott. This topic has ran it's course sir, if you cannot believe what you see with your very own eyes, I am afraid I cannot assist you on it sir.
It is not because I do not see with my very own eyes that I asked you to explain yourself--but because I do. Nor was I looking for your assistance--but offering to give assistance.
Anyway, what you have sighted as the signs of His return, He said, "but the end is not yet." But the assistance that I have to offer, is not what the world has believed for 2,000 years. Which has been that foretold time of strong delusion--which if denied, is to deny the word of prophecy, but is also to continue in it.
However, during those same 2,000 years, those same signs have come continually--yeah, even since the world fell into darkness. Not that there have not been noteworthy highlights--there have been. "But the end is not yet."
But what did He say?--He said, "When you see these things." "You."
So, yes, you have seen these things--but so have previous generations.
Still, the time which He gave was "When you see these things." Which is to say Yes, to you, but Yes to them also...or as Paul indicated, "each one in his own order."
So, then, did Jesus lie to them of previous perilous generations, or did He lie to you? I tell you--He told you the truth and also told them the truth.
And now I have also told you the truth.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Yes sir exactly! The end is not yet. We believe Jesus was enthroned in 1914, the generation that observed this will not pass before the end does occur, and they are quite old sir. Many I have spoken to recently, perhaps you could run a poll, believe we are quite near the outbreak of the tribulation, I certainly can see the rapid changes happening developing into that for sure. The time is right Scott.
You are grossly missing the point.
The point of "when YOU see these things", is not so much to say "the end is not yet"--but more importantly that, as "the kingdom of God is within you"...so is the End.
"Each one in his own order."
"You...know that it is near—at the doors!"
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
The Kingdom of God is not within a person Scott, it is a literal government. Some versions of the Bible state that Jesus said that, but look at the context, do you think it was in those that Jesus said it to?
Lu 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
The meaning of course that Jesus was right there among them, the King of the Kingdom and they failed to recognize that fact. The Kingdom is a real government, and it is coming to replace all governments on earth Dan 2:44
Davy
Well-Known Member
What Lord Jesus said in pointing to the parable of the fig tree in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, is a no brainer. No need for man's philosophy fragments trying to be added to it. The generation He was pointing to is simple to understand.
He said the generation that sees "all these things", will not pass until "all these things" come to pass.
Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV
Now those who can actually think, using their brain, what does that above mean?
If Lord Jesus meant "all those things" would begin to come to pass back at His 1st coming, in His Apostle's days, then that would mean "all these things", INCLUDING HIS RETURN AND GATHERING OF THE CHURCH, had already happened back then! Now what ignorant foolish person would believe that stupidity? So that means RULE OUT those Signs He gave as being for the days of His 1st coming, or even those of 70 A.D., because JESUS DID NOT RETURN IN 70 A.D. EITHER!
Christ Jesus' return to gather His Church is STILL YET FUTURE TO US TODAY.
And His coming to gather His Church was the FINAL SIGN HE GAVE in that Matthew 24 discourse. So that Sign is included in "all these things"!
And like He said, the generation that SEES "all these things", meaning the Signs He gave prior to the parable of the fig tree, they ALL MUST happen in the generation that will SEE HIS 2ND COMING.
So BEWARE brethren of the five foolish virgins here that just pass on JUNK doctrines from idiots they respect and love!
He said the generation that sees "all these things", will not pass until "all these things" come to pass.
Matt 24:32-34
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
KJV
Now those who can actually think, using their brain, what does that above mean?
If Lord Jesus meant "all those things" would begin to come to pass back at His 1st coming, in His Apostle's days, then that would mean "all these things", INCLUDING HIS RETURN AND GATHERING OF THE CHURCH, had already happened back then! Now what ignorant foolish person would believe that stupidity? So that means RULE OUT those Signs He gave as being for the days of His 1st coming, or even those of 70 A.D., because JESUS DID NOT RETURN IN 70 A.D. EITHER!
Christ Jesus' return to gather His Church is STILL YET FUTURE TO US TODAY.
And His coming to gather His Church was the FINAL SIGN HE GAVE in that Matthew 24 discourse. So that Sign is included in "all these things"!
And like He said, the generation that SEES "all these things", meaning the Signs He gave prior to the parable of the fig tree, they ALL MUST happen in the generation that will SEE HIS 2ND COMING.
So BEWARE brethren of the five foolish virgins here that just pass on JUNK doctrines from idiots they respect and love!
You can explain away one biblical truth to avoid another, many do. Such is the wide road. But you have not at all addressed the passage we were discussing and why Jesus said "you"--that is "when you see all these things." Matthew 24:33
First off, it doesn't even make sense that Jesus would tell those of that time about seeing something they would not see if it is at the end of the age--and not just some, but "all." Secondly, it also doesn't make sense that He would say "you" except to those He was talking to.
But ye also, when ye see these words, will ye also explain them away too?
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
You in that case was directed to his few apostles, God saw it was recorded for us, Jesus' disciples today, verse 14 shows it to still be an active prophecy Scott. Do you believe Revelation was penned after the destruction of Jerusalem? We did discuss how the horses of chap 6 represented the same things of Mat 24
This is like the saying "exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today.”' But putting off for tomorrow what was meant for today, is not the answer.
You have said the words that Jesus spoke were to those He spoke them to, and so have I. You have also said that it is still an active prophecy, and so have I. But you have not attributed it to Paul's indication that it is because it comes to you-you-and-you, "each one in his own order." Instead, you make the same mistake that has been made since it began with Christ the firstfruits 2,000 years ago. Surely you have put off the harvest that He has begun since then, as if He had not overcome all the world, but just the few, leaving the remainder to some pie in the sky future finale as if He has left His fields unattended only to return gathering all in corporate order, rather than "each one in his own order" since He began.
But, no, it is written "firstfruits" (plural) because the harvest has been underway all of this time even though men slumber and have not believed every word.
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Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
This has evolved into a completely different topic Scott. I am glad we have came to the agreement on the original, that it is still an active prophecy with a future fulfillment.
You are now speaking about the firstfruits, and their order of receiving their reward. Christ was the first, then with the first resurrection, those who had died prior were resurrected. Those who died after the first resurrection occurred would most likely rise instantly, but as far as I know the Bible does not confirm this, and those that are alive upon the Christ's return will be changed in a twinkling of the eye, and meet him in the air. Rev 20:6; 1 Thes 4:13-17.
Yes...and my point--which has not been fully realized or acknowledged for all these 2,000 +/- years--is the timing of when Christ's return actually occurs according to Paul...and still remains unconfirmed by millions who should have known better (but believed a lie--this too is written).
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I would say billions Scott, remember God offers a relationship to every single human on earth if they accept it.
Who then will accept the last word from Paul ("each one in his own order") on this matter of "this generation?"
Who will Jesus "find so doing?" Matthew 24:46
Is this not that "due season?"
I say it is.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
I actually understand why Jesus said that Scott, we both know at his return there will be many disciples that belong to God, but even among us there are many hypocrites that do not live the faith. But since an innumerable number of people come out of the tribulation, that is our assurance that he will find some doing the will of Jehovah.
But you still have not acknowledged the point that Paul made of the timing, saying "but each one in his own order*." Which is that "press on*" in "due season*"...making the alternative, that "lie*" of "strong delusion*" the "teachings of men*."
Even so, I have connected all the dots* for you.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Each in his own order refers to the saints, and yes I did explain that Scott. Post 112. I have the slightest idea what you are trying to connect the dots to sir. Jesus has received the Kingship, he has cleansed the heavens, he has not yet returned to remove the wicked from the earth yet, that is still future.
Okay, I am not going to belabor it further with you.
Yet, you are still missing the point that when it is written that we "were" crucified and raised up with Christ, it means "were"--not future. Also, that Christ's returning in spirit is greater than in the flesh, and it is also what is written and was to be: "the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual."
But the lie is more palatable, and its certainty foretold. So be it.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
As far as I know, none of the apostles were crucified Scott, so the were there meant that all of the holy ones then, as well as all of them in the future "were" crucified along with Christ, through his crucifixion, correct? Therefore not only was it in the past sense, as you saw it was also present, and would apply to all anointed Christians even today sir. In fact, because of that sacrifice, all who gain life, will do so through that saving act.
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