Catholics; Do You Believe This?

[Earburner]

Membership in the Church guaruntees access to Grace to help us live in 'this world' as we make our pilgrimage to our true home.
It does not guaruntee that one will avail themselves of that Grace..

Pax et Bonum

So therefore, only the born again members of the church(es) ARE the body of Christ, but they themselves are not the Savior of the world.

As a result, they are only acting in His stead, as ambassadors for Christ in the reconciling of the world unto God, and are made to be priests unto God for that purpose.
2 Corinthians 5[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
[18] And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
[19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
[20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us:
we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Peter was just the beginning of the building of Christ's church. He was the first to hear the Father's witness that "Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God".
THAT IS the first step to becoming "born again".

To each born again Christian forward, they ALSO are given the keys to the kingdom of God, thus having the authority to be an Ambassador for Christ, and be a priest unto God for the reconciliation of others to God through Christ.

 

[Illuminator]

To each born again Christian forward, they ALSO are given the keys to the kingdom of God, thus having the authority to be an Ambassador for Christ, and be a priest unto God for the reconciliation of others to God through Christ.

That sounds nice, but nowhere in Scripture does each born again Christian been given the keys to the kingdom of God. The "us" in verse 18-20 refers to the Apostles. The "we" in verse 20 refers to the Apostles, not any individual born again Christian.
After 500 years, you guys are still trying to justify the abolishment of the NT Priesthood. Sure, we all have priestly duties, but the Bible not rule out ordained priests.

The Office of New Testament Priest

 

[Degas]

I live in Lourdes, France, I consider myself Catholic although I do no believe everything the Church says. I certainly do not believe that non Catholics won't got to Heaven.

Interestingly enough, Catholic websites are really good at giving lengthy answers to your question, answers which are so lengthy and so complicated that most people won't even be able to understand whether or not they consider that non Catholics won't be saved. See a few examples:
Without the Church There Is No Salvation
Outside the Church there is no Salvation (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) Archives - Catholicism.org
Is There Really “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?”
What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means

Just so you know, I didn't choose the above links, they are the first four ones which popped in my search engine. What troubles me is that Jesus used to teach to large uneducated crowds, most of the people listening to him couldn't even read or write, and I resent that it is always so difficult to receive a simple answer to a simple questions. In this case, the very least would be to answer "yes" or "no" then to explain the answer.

 

[Earburner]

FALSE.
Baptism is NOT the “SOLE criteria” for entering into Heaven – and neither the Bible nor the Church has ever taught this.

Baptism is only the beginning for a Christian. If you don’t faithfully endure to the end, having cooperated with God’s grace - you WON’T be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:1-15
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Edit:
1 Corinthians 2[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

 

[Brakelite]

Membership in the Church guaruntees access to Grace

KJV Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Earburner]

That sounds nice, but nowhere in Scripture does each born again Christian been given the keys to the kingdom of God. The "us" in verse 18-20 refers to the Apostles. The "we" in verse 20 refers to the Apostles, not any individual born again Christian.
After 500 years, you guys are still trying to justify the abolishment of the NT Priesthood. Sure, we all have priestly duties, but the Bible not rule out ordained priests.

The Office of New Testament Priest

Because Peter, who was without the Holy Spirit at that time (not born again), did hear the Father's witness of who Jesus was, he was the first person to publically confess and exclaim among men that Jesus is the
Messiah/the Christ , the Son of the Living God.

Therefore, Jesus knowing that ONLY God the Father is able to reveal to others who Jesus actually is, He knew that Peter had received the Father's revelation to him. Jesus then conveyed to Peter, being the first, that to all of such, they also shall receive God's Authority, by receiving the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, which is the Gift of the Holy Spirit of God.
Luke.10
[22] All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Matt.16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

All Born Again Christians have been given the authority to lead others to Christ, for either their acceptance of Him, or their denial of Him. In so doing, a person is either converted to Christ (their sins are loosed/forgiven unto them), or they remain unconverted to Christ (their sins are bound/retained unto them).

 

[BreadOfLife]

Disagree. God is Good in any language.
It’s not some big mystery. Spiritual things, parallel earthy things, so little pea brains can comprehend.
Maybe you should take a class in masonry.
Blah, Blah, Blah....I could care less what STUDENT you run to and promote.
The Author of Gods Word is my Teacher!

Yup - unfortunately, YOU and the tens of thousands of others who created this never-ending slew of perpetually-splintering sects ALL make the same claijm - yet you ALL arrive at different conclusions.

Jesus left the "Teaching" up to His CHURCH - and NOT to the individual . . .
Matt. 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kepha), and upon this rock (Kepha) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
I will give YOU the keys to the kingdom of heaven. WHATEVER YOU BIND on earth shall be bound in heaven; and WHATEVER YOU LOOSE on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

 

[Episkopos]

I live in Lourdes, France, I consider myself Catholic although I do no believe everything the Church says. I certainly do not believe that non Catholics won't got to Heaven.

Interestingly enough, Catholic websites are really good at giving lengthy answers to your question, answers which are so lengthy and so complicated that most people won't even be able to understand whether or not they consider that non Catholics won't be saved. See a few examples:
Without the Church There Is No Salvation
Outside the Church there is no Salvation (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus) Archives - Catholicism.org
Is There Really “No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church?”
What “No Salvation Outside the Church” Means

Just so you know, I didn't choose the above links, they are the first four ones which popped in my search engine. What troubles me is that Jesus used to teach to large uneducated crowds, most of the people listening to him couldn't even read or write, and I resent that it is always so difficult to receive a simple answer to a simple questions. In this case, the very least would be to answer "yes" or "no" then to explain the answer.

tellement...

 

[BreadOfLife]

No need to LIE, since it only brings shame upon you. Oops.
No I have never once rejected Scripture...

Luke 10:
[16] He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.[/COLOR]
Heareth YOU WHO?

His CHURCH, whos job it is to teach the masses (Matt. 28:19-20).

But of course you do not comprehend the CONTEXT.[/COLOR]
Jesus was speaking to His Disciples. All 80+ of His Disciples.
You pretending Priests, have carte’ blanch Authority, BY their TITLE is FALSE, or that Scholars have greater Authority, BY their
TITLE is FALSE.
Christ Jesus is my teacher. Jesus’ Apostles are His chosen Servants. They are trustworthy.

You can follow your fallible chosen men all day long,

Doesn’t affect me.

THANK YOU for pointing out the fact that Jesus was speaking to "80+" disciples in Luke 10:16.
Do you have ANY idea WHO these men were? I didn't think so. Allow me to educate you again . . .

They were the oringinal leaders of the Church.
Hippolytus of Rome was a disciple of Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, who was a
disciple of Apostle John. Hippolytus's works were considered lost prior to their
discovery at a monastery on Mount Athos in 1854. Here is the text of Pseudo-
Hippolytus's On the Seventy Apostles of Christ. These are the men mentioned in
Luke10:1-23 . . .

1. James the Lord's brother, bishop of Jerusalem.
2. Cleopas, bishop of Jerusalem (1 of the 2 who met Jesus on the Road to Emmaus).
3. Matthias, who supplied the vacant place in the number of the twelve apostles.
4. Thaddeus, who conveyed the epistle to Augarus (Abgar V).
5. Ananias, who baptized Paul, and was Bishop of Damascus.
6. Stephen, the first martyr.
7. Philip, who baptized the eunuch.
8. Prochorus, bishop of Nicomedia.
9. Nicanor died when Stephen was martyred.
10. Timon, bishop of Bostra.
11. Parmenas, bishop of Soli.
12. Nicolaus, bishop of Samaria.
13. Barnabas, bishop of Milan.
14. Mark the Evangelist, bishop of Alexandria.
15. Luke the Evangelist.
16. Silas, bishop of Corinth.
17. Silvanus, bishop of Thessalonica.
18. Crisces (Crescens), bishop of Carchedon in Gaul.
19. Epænetus, bishop of Carthage.
20. Andronicus, bishop of Pannonia.
21. Amplias, bishop of Odyssus.
22. Urban, bishop of Macedonia.
23. Stachys, bishop of Byzantium.
24. Barnabas, bishop of Heraclea
25. Phygellus, bishop of Ephesus. He was of the party also of Simon.
26. Hermogenes. He, too, was of the same mind with the former.
27. Demas, who also became a priest of idols.
28. Apelles, bishop of Smyrna.
29. Aristobulus, bishop of Britain.
30. Narcissus, bishop of Athens.
31. Herodion, bishop of Tarsus.
32. Agabus the prophet.
33. Rufus, bishop of Thebes.
34. Asyncritus, bishop of Hyrcania.
35. Phlegon, bishop of Marathon.
36. Hermes, bishop of Dalmatia.
37. Patrobulus, bishop of Puteoli.
38. Hermas, bishop of Philippi.
39. Linus, bishop of Rome - successor to Peter.
40. Caius, bishop of Ephesus.
41. Philologus, bishop of Sinope
42. Olympus -
43. and Rhodion were martyred in Rome.
44. Lucius, bishop of Laodicea in Syria.
45. Jason, bishop of Tarsus.
46. Sosipater, bishop of Iconium
47. Tertius, bishop of Iconium.
48. Erastus, bishop of Panellas.
49. Quartus, bishop of Berytus.
50. Apollos, bishop of Cæsarea.
51. Cephas.
52. Sosthenes, bishop of Colophonia.
53. Tychicus, bishop of Colophonia.
54. Epaphroditus, bishop of Andriace.
55. Cæsar, bishop of Dyrrachium.
56. Mark, cousin to Barnabas, bishop of Apollonia.
57. Justus, bishop of Eleutheropolis.
58. Artemas, bishop of Lystra.
59. Clement, bishop of Sardinia.
60. Onesiphorus, bishop of Corone.
61. Tychicus, bishop of Chalcedon.
62. Carpus, bishop of Berytus in Thrace.
63. Evodus, bishop of Antioch.
64. Aristarchus, bishop of Apamea.
65. Mark, who is also John, bishop of Bibloupolis.
66. Zenas, bishop of Diospolis.
67. Philemon, bishop of Gaza.
68. Aristarchus.
69. Pudes.
70. Trophimus, who was martyred along with Paul.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Gaslighter. What a putz.

Translation:
"Uhhhhh, I have NO way of arguing against that."

That's what I thought . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Corinthians 3:1-15
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Edit:
1 Corinthians 2[4] And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Thank you for that illustration of the process of Final Purification (Purgatory) in 1 Cor. 3:1-15.

However - it doesn't address the point that Baptism is only the beginning for a Christian - and not the "SOLE criteria" for salvation, as YOU asserted..

 

[Philip James]

KJV Romans 5:1-2
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Amen!

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"

Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.


For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.


Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.


Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.


This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."


All are welcome to come to the wedding Feast of the Lamb of God!

Pax et Bonum

 

[Taken]

Yup - unfortunately, YOU and the tens of thousands of others who created this never-ending slew of perpetually-splintering sects ALL make the same claijm - yet you ALL arrive at different conclusions.

Doesn’t matter if their are one hundred thousand Protestant Churches, with different rules...service start time, service meeting date time, women wear dresses, woman wear head covering, comes as you are in whatever clothing, no make up, no dancing, no entertainment, entertainment, no drinking, Sunday schools divided by age and gender, no Sunday schools, all gather in the sanctuary, water Baptism immersion, water Baptism head drizzle, Preacher wear this, Preacher wear whatever, musical instruments, no musical instruments, prayer beads, no prayer beads, stained glass windows, no stained glass windows, an altar, no altar, pews, chairs, kitchen to cook, no kitchen, a collection plate passed, no collection plate passed;
blah, blah, blah, blah blah.......
HOW PETTY and INSIGNIFICANT your laughable repeated claim...
OBVIOUSLY utterly IGNORANT of the FACT;
A man-made CHURCH is established ON ONE FOUNDATIONAL ROCK solid PRINCIPLE:
Jesus IS the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Seriously, since you have utterly MISSED THE entire Principle UPON which a CHURCH is Established...I do expect you to continue to show your ignorance, fingering pointing, and whining.

Jesus left the "Teaching" up to His CHURCH - and NOT to the individual . . .
Matt. 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Oh, WOW, a newsflash....
And obviously unknowing to YOU, once they have been TAUGHT...
AND Believe what they “WERE” Taught....
Apparently SECRET to you...THEY HAVE BECOME DISCIPLES!

And ONCE they Become CONVERTED IN Christ...
THEY ARE the Church!
“THEY Are with the SAME qualifications, to teach and baptize others.”

You reside in and OF the world where YOUR man-made Building is Christ’s Church.
ERROR!

 

[Taken]

Translation:
"Uhhhhh, I have NO way of arguing against that."

That's what I thought . . .

Obviously, What you “think” is of no consequence to me.
It is more than obvious you “want” to argue.
I already KNOW my standing with the Lord.
I repented, I was forgiven, I confessed my Heartful belief, I was made whole...

And you...according to you, you received the same, without repenting, without being forgiven, without confessing....a baby, without being aware....

ya, uh, “your thinking”, was never taught in Scripture for me to consider.

Oops...bubble burst.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh, WOW, a newsflash....
And obviously unknowing to YOU, once they have been TAUGHT...
AND Believe what they “WERE” Taught....

Apparently SECRET to you...THEY HAVE BECOME DISCIPLES!

And ONCE they Become CONVERTED IN Christ...
THEY ARE the Church!
“THEY Are with the SAME qualifications, to teach and baptize others.”

You reside in and OF the world where YOUR man-made Building is Christ’s Church.
ERROR!

Ummmmm, NOT according to the Bible.

You see - the Apostles knew there would be people like YOU who would try to usurp the Ministerial priesthood without the Church's Authority. That's why Jude warned against such a thing (Jude 1:11) - comparing people like that to the Rebellion of Korah and their punishment in the OT (Numbers 16:1-35; 31:16).

It's ALSO why Paul differentiates the Clergy from the Laity . . .

1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

1 Cor. 12:28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, FIRST, apostles; SECOND, prophets; THIRD, teachers; then, mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.

You really hate God's Word - and that's the FRUIT by which I know you (Matt. 7:15-19) . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Obviously, What you “think” is of no consequence to me.
It is more than obvious you “want” to argue.
I already KNOW my standing with the Lord.
I repented, I was forgiven, I confessed my Heartful belief, I was made whole...

And you...according to you, you received the same, without repenting, without being forgiven, without confessing....a baby, without being aware....

ya, uh, “your thinking”, was never taught in Scripture for me to consider.

Oops...bubble burst.

Deflecting again - as usual . . .

I knew you wouldn't be able to address the truth I spoke about your rejection of the Word of God.
Luke 10:16 is a stern warning to prideful, faithless people like you . . .

 

[Taken]

Deflecting again - as usual . . .

I knew you wouldn't be able to address the truth I spoke about your rejection of the Word of God.

Already addressed.
You claiming a LIE for me, is simply your False Testimony.
Nothing to debate. Your claims are accounted to YOU.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Already addressed.
You claiming a LIE for me, is simply your False Testimony.
Nothing to debate. Your claims are accounted to YOU.

Duck and move . . .
Not bad.

Beats answering the questions and actually addressing my points, I guess . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Because Peter, who was without the Holy Spirit at that time (not born again), did hear the Father's witness of who Jesus was, he was the first person to publically confess and exclaim among men that Jesus is the
Messiah/the Christ , the Son of the Living God.

Therefore, Jesus knowing that ONLY God the Father is able to reveal to others who Jesus actually is, He knew that Peter had received the Father's revelation to him. Jesus then conveyed to Peter, being the first, that to all of such, they also shall receive God's Authority, by receiving the keys to the kingdom of Heaven, which is the Gift of the Holy Spirit of God.
Luke.10
[22] All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
Matt.16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

All Born Again Christians have been given the authority to lead others to Christ, for either their acceptance of Him, or their denial of Him. In so doing, a person is either converted to Christ (their sins are loosed/forgiven unto them), or they remain unconverted to Christ (their sins are bound/retained unto them).

That's your opinion. "keys" represent authority, which is not just given to each born again Christian.
Rev. 1:18; 3:7; 9:1; 20:1 – Jesus’ “keys” undeniably represent authority. By using the word “keys,” Jesus gives Peter authority on earth over the new Davidic kingdom, and this was not seriously questioned by anyone until the Protestant revolt 1,500 years later after Peter’s investiture.

Matt. 16:19 – whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This “binding and loosing” authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish “halakah,” or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves. Peter’s “keys” fit into the “gates” of Hades which also represent Peter’s pastoral authority over souls.

Matt. 23:2-4 – the “binding and loosing” terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees “bind” heavy burdens but won’t move (“loose”) them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant. Peter and the apostles, not each born again Christian.

You are forced to change the meaning of "keys", and "binding/loosing" to make it fit an earthly body with no head.

Hebrews 13:17

You have no leaders and submit only to your opinions.

Several evangelical scholars have noted that the problem with Protestant ecclesiology is that there is no Protestant ecclesiology. In many denominations—and especially in non-denominational churches—there is no hierarchy of churches responsible to a central head, no accountability beyond the local congregation, no fellowship beyond the local assembly, no missional emphasis that gains support from hundreds of congregations, and no superiors to whom a local pastor must submit for doctrinal or ethical fidelity.​

The Problem with Protestant Ecclesiology

 

[BreadOfLife]

To each born again Christian forward, they ALSO are given the keys to the kingdom of God, thus having the authority to be an Ambassador for Christ, and be a priest unto God for the reconciliation of others to God through Christ.

WRONG - the Bible says different.

Paul receognizes the Clergy/Laity distinction when he sates the following:
1 Thess. 5:12
We ask you, brothers, to respect those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU in the Lord and who admonish you,

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that RULE WELL be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Furthermore - he uses the the Clergy/Laity distinction with the Corinthians, when explaiing them about the Ministry of Reconciliation:
2 Cor. 5:18-20:
“And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given US the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to US the message of reconciliation. So WE are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through US. WE implore YOU on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.”

In 2 Cor. 2:10, he states:
“Whomever you forgive anything, so do I. For indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for YOU in the presence of Christ.”

Notic eht distinction he makes with "WE", "US" and "YOU".

Also, in the Greek, the word “presence” in this phrase is Prosopone, which means Person. In the PERSON of Christ is a more correct translation. Paul was indicating that they were forgiving sins in the PERSON of Christ, which is translated into Latin as In Persona Christi.

So - instead of the usual snarky denials like your friend @Taken - try actually addressing these verses . . .