Catholics; Do You Believe This?

[Earburner]

Never saw that painting before.

There are several different ones by different artists.
Did you like it, for what it is scripturally telling?

 

[Earburner]

EVERY ONE of these verses is a warning to converted, bopen again Christians who have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit - NOT to fall nack into darkness, lest they LOSE their secure position:

By reading your above response, I Just thought that I should get to the point.
No one who is born of flesh in this world is automatically born again/saved, just because they are living.
To be born again is a choice of our own free will.
We must ask Him, that HE will baptize us with His Holy Spirit. Luke 11:13.
No one slides through the "Door" into the KoG, just because they went to church.

 

[Taken]

There are several different ones by different artists.
Did you like it, for what it is scripturally telling?

No, don’t care for it.
Never have like paintings, pictures, sculptures, etc. supposedly representing God or Christ the Lord Jesus.

The REASON I do not like it is:
Because the concept goes back to ancient days of early man, when men could NOT BELIEVE, without seeing something. God called them “stiffnecked” and “stubborn” and “rebellious”.
Ex 22:9
2 Chron 30:8
Pss 78:8
Acts 7:51

Art is a funny thing that comes from the mind of the artist...
And the onlooker can guess or assume the artist’s intent.

 

[BreadOfLife]

By reading your above response, I Just thought that I should get to the point.
No one who is born of flesh in this world is automatically born again/saved, just because they are living.
To be born again is a choice of our own free will.
We must ask Him, that HE will baptize us with His Holy Spirit. Luke 11:13.
No one slides through the "Door" into the KoG, just because they went to church.

And when did I ever make that claim?

I have stated ALL along that Baptism is the FIRST step for a Christian. Living a life of doing the will of God (Matt. 7:21) and enduring to the end in faith (Matt. 10:22) is what is requried of us to enter Heaven.

 

[Earburner]

No, don’t care for it.
Never have like paintings, pictures, sculptures, etc. supposedly representing God or Christ the Lord Jesus.

The REASON I do not like it is:
Because the concept goes back to ancient days of early man, when men could NOT BELIEVE, without seeing something. God called them “stiffnecked” and “stubborn” and “rebellious”.
Ex 22:9
2 Chron 30:8
Pss 78:8
Acts 7:51

Art is a funny thing that comes from the mind of the artist...
And the onlooker can guess or assume the artist’s intent.

Revelation 3:20
Jesus is "the Door" to God's salvation for us.
We must answer His "knocking" upon our lives, and open up to His Door of His Holy Spirit, that He may enter into us.

HE himself, respecting our individual self wills, has no desire or means to enter in, unless we allow/ask Him to do so, as symbolized in the painting, of Him having no door knob on His side.

We must OPEN the door, and ask/invite Him into our life. Luke 11:13.

 

[Taken]

Revelation 3:20
Jesus is "the Door" to God's salvation for us.
We must answer His "knocking" upon our lives, and open up to His Door of His Holy Spirit, that He may enter into us.

HE himself, respecting our individual self wills, has no desire or means to enter in, unless we allow/ask Him to do so, as symbolized in the painting, of Him having no door knob on His side.

We must OPEN the door, and ask/invite Him into our life. Luke 11:13.

Yes, noticed the no door knob on the painting.
Yes, know How Scripture teaches to BE WITH the Lord God, once and forever. Already accomplished.

 

[JohnPaul]

Catholics, do you believe this from the Catholic Catechism?

No salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Any words in red is not part of the Catholic catechism I am quoting.

"824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294"

830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." the Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. the Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

The irony is how the following quote from the Catholic Catechism has those who do not know about the gospel of Jesus Christ & His Church through no fault of their own are saved.

47 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

And yet

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

Does any Catholic wished they had never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ & His Church?

I did when I was a practicing Catholic, that's was over a decade ago.

 

[Earburner]

And when did I ever make that claim?

I have stated ALL along that Baptism is the FIRST step for a Christian. Living a life of doing the will of God (Matt. 7:21) and enduring to the end in faith (Matt. 10:22) is what is requried of us to enter Heaven.

OK, now that we got that straight, about the physical and spiritual aspects of Baptism, does Jesus Baptize repentant Protestant believers with His Holy Spirit?

 

[Taken]

EVERY ONE of these verses is a warning to converted, bopen again Christians who have been indwelt with the Holy Spirit - NOT to fall nack into darkness, lest they LOSE their secure position:

Utter nonsense!

The converted IN Christ CAN NOT FALL AWAY!
Believers CAN FALL AWAY!

 

[Taken]

I did when I was a practicing Catholic, who’s was over a decade ago.

Were you taught via Catholicism that a baby receives the Holy Spirit at the time of a baby “water baptism” ?

 

[Taken]

I have seen no evidence here of any anti-Catholic activity or speech. I, despite what you may think, have never been anti Catholic. Anti catholicism certainly, and with good reason. And I'm willing to give sound biblical support for my views of you are interested. Just don't write them off beforehand as psychotic ramblings.

They calling people “anti-catholic” is a gaslighting ploy to deflect.
It’s observed over and over, post after post, page after page.

The moment a person can not stand for their beliefs with sound doctrine, the ACCUSATIONS burst forward, with the INTENT to completely deflect to “YOU are this, No I’m not, Yes YOU are, No I’m not”....blah, blah, blah....

It’s called, psychobabble, deflection, deceit, gaslighting....
Observed all day long.

 

[Illuminator]

OK, now that we got that straight, about the physical and spiritual aspects of Baptism, does Jesus Baptize repentant Protestant believers with His Holy Spirit?

Yes. We don't tell Jesus what to do. But technically, water baptism removes Original Sin, allowing for the release of the Holy Spirit as manifested in gifts later in life. So it's not a "baptism" of the Holy Spirit per se, but a release of what has already been given (in most cases). Thus, the tension between water baptism and Holy Spirit manifestations is resolved.
Keep in mind water baptism is normative, as there is also baptism of desire and baptism of blood. It's all one baptism when one understands what baptism means.

 

[Earburner]

Yes. We don't tell Jesus what to do. But technically, water baptism removes Original Sin, allowing for the release of the Holy Spirit as manifested in gifts later in life. So it's not a "baptism" of the Holy Spirit per se, but a release of what has already been given (in most cases). Thus, the tension between water baptism and Holy Spirit manifestations is resolved.
Keep in mind water baptism is normative, as there is also baptism of desire and baptism of blood. It's all one baptism when one understands what baptism means.

In your roundabout way, thank you for agreeing that Jesus DOES Baptize ALL repentant Protestant believers WITH the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:8-9

 

[GRACE ambassador]

In your roundabout way, thank you for agreeing that Jesus DOES Baptize ALL repentant Protestant believers WITH the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:8-9

IF so, then Where are the power, signs, and wonders Almost Everyone is so
Totally Confused about?:

"Prophecy/Law" {earthly} gospel of the kingdom, ISRAEL "Prominent!"
{past/future}

►►► The Twelve Were Sent to {water} baptize! ◄◄◄
The TWO Main (of 12) baptismS =

A) water, For remission of sins!:
(Matthew_3:5-6; Mark_1:4; Luke_3:3; John_1:31; Luke 7:29-30; Acts_10:37)
(Matthew_28:19; Mark_16:16; Acts_2:38, 22:16; Ezekiel_36:25)
+
►►►
B) WITH The Holy Spirit, Poured Out By CHRIST, for power, signs And wonders!
(Isaiah_44:3; Matthew_3:11; Mark_1:8, 16:17-18;
Luke_24:49; Acts_2:17-18, 38, 8:15-17, 11:16) ◄◄◄

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

"Mystery/GRACE!" {Heavenly!} Gospel Of GRACE, Jew And Gentile "Equal!"
{Current, Today!}
►►► Paul Was Not Sent to {water} baptize! Why Not?: ◄◄◄

Today: Only ONE Baptism = "BY" The ONE Spirit = God's OPERATION,
Spiritually Identifying members In (The ONE Body Of) CHRIST!!
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians_2:12; Galatians_3:27;
Romans_6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJB!)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion: God's ONE Baptism Today? = ONE {MOST Important}?
OR, EQUALS TWO [Bad math]?

Is it not Possible That God's Answer Of "No water baptism, for us Today," Under
HIS Pure GRACE, absolutely vanquishes Satan's Confusion into oblivion!?

Q: IF the water is gone today, what Else "went with it"? powers, signs, wonders,
miracles, healings, word of knowledge, gift of prophecy, and, tongues? Or not?
---------------
More:
The Uncertain Trumpet of water baptism

GRACE And Peace...

 

[theefaith]

Catholics, do you believe this from the Catholic Catechism?

No salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Any words in red is not part of the Catholic catechism I am quoting.

"824 United with Christ, the Church is sanctified by him; through him and with him she becomes sanctifying. "All the activities of the Church are directed, as toward their end, to the sanctification of men in Christ and the glorification of God."292 It is in the Church that "the fullness of the means of salvation"293 has been deposited. It is in her that "by the grace of God we acquire holiness."294"

830 The word "catholic" means "universal," in the sense of "according to the totality" or "in keeping with the whole." the Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ's body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. the Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

The irony is how the following quote from the Catholic Catechism has those who do not know about the gospel of Jesus Christ & His Church through no fault of their own are saved.

47 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

And yet

837 "Fully incorporated into the society of the Church are those who, possessing the Spirit of Christ, accept all the means of salvation given to the Church together with her entire organization, and who - by the bonds constituted by the profession of faith, the sacraments, ecclesiastical government, and communion - are joined in the visible structure of the Church of Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but 'in body' not 'in heart.'"321

Does any Catholic wished they had never heard of the gospel of Jesus Christ & His Church?

credo in unum deo! Yes I believe

but I prefer a better catechism!

 

[theefaith]

Members of Christ and his church in faith and baptism!
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 1 cor 12:13

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 2:1&5 brought to life in baptism
Eph 4:5 one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 and not the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

 

[BreadOfLife]

OK, now that we got that straight, about the physical and spiritual aspects of Baptism, does Jesus Baptize repentant Protestant believers with His Holy Spirit?

The Catholic Church recognize Trinitarian Protestant Baptism as vallid.

Hoervrt - whether or not a person is Baptized in the Holy Spirit is NOT a guarantee of Heravrn. You can fall away by your own doing at ANY point in your life - as the Bible warns us (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

If we don't endure to the end - we will be LOST.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Utter nonsense!
The converted IN Christ CAN NOT FALL AWAY!
Believers CAN FALL AWAY!

This is unBiblical fiction.

I've shown you MANY time that the bible warns converted, born again Christians with an "Epignosis" of Christ - that they can fall away and LOSE their secure position - YOUR denials, notwithstanding . . .

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (EPIGNOSIS). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (EPIGNOSIS) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness - or they will LOSE their "SECURE PSITION".

 

[Earburner]

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (EPIGNOSIS) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Personally and scripturally, I perceive and believe that no Born again Christian can "fall away" from their faith in Christ. Jude 1:24,
However, those professing christians that do fall away, they never belonged to Christ in the first place, because they remained in the situation of being "half baked". They came to Christ for God's forgiveness of their sin, but they never "asked" or "knocked" to receive God's Holy Spirit. Therefore Romans 8:8-9 applies to them. All of such are exactly who the
"Five foolish virgins" are, as described in that parable. They have a profession of faith, but continue to remain uncommitted in their relationship to God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Personally and scripturally, I perceive and believe that no Born again Christian can "fall away" from their faith in Christ. Jude 1:24,
However, those professing christians that do fall away, they never belonged to Christ in the first place, because they remained in the situation of being "half baked". They came to Christ for God's forgiveness of their sin, but they never "asked" or "knocked" to receive God's Holy Spirit. Therefore Romans 8:8-9 applies to them. All of such are exactly who the
"Five foolish virgins" are, as described in that parable. They have a profession of faith, but continue to remain uncommitted in their relationship to God.

Jude 1:24 states firmly:
Now unto him that is ABLE to guard you from stumbling, and to set you before the presence of his glory without blemish in exceeding joy

He is ABLE to guard us - IF we continue to faithfully trust in Him.
NOWHERE does it say that we are "automatically" and permanently guarded - regardless of our lack of faith or non-cooperation with His grace.
This is the unBiblical fallacy of Eternal Security ("OSAS").

Both 2 Peter 2:20-22 and Hebrews 10:26-27 make it crystal-clear that even those with an EPIGNOSIS of Christ can lose their salvation.
Epignbosis is defined as a "full, experiential and relational knowledge" - not ulike a marriage. It's only used about a dozen times in Scripture - as opposed to "Oida" or "Gnosis", which are defined asa "intellectual knowledge".