This really grabbed me today!

[face2face]

@Aunty Jane I just love that section in John 10 also....

John 20:28 “Thomas Answered”

His conviction comes without the necessity of touching the physical body, John 20:29 “because you have seen…” “My Lord and My God” – (“kurious”, “theos”).

Title of “God” is applied to Jesus in a passage that distinguishes him from God! Psalms 45:6-7; Hebrews 1:8-9

The fulfillment of those two quotes shows the same passage here in John 20 speaks of his “fellows” (i.e above his fellows) (Heb: “an associate”, Grk: “sharer”)

Title of “God” applied to the Jews Psalms 82:1; John 10:34-36 This and other things recorded to prove Jesus Christ “is Son of God” not “God the Son”! John 20:31

 

[dhh712]

Aye, but then people do so often, it seems to me, to want to live for God by logic alone. Should one logically study the written Bible and thus become a perfect overcoming follower of Christ?

"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?" II Cor 3:5-8

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

One important thing to remember when discussing understanding God: if you can comprehend the Trinitarian God completely and logically then that is not the true and living God. Just as we are created in the image of God and that image is under the curse right now and corrupted, so too is our logic. It is not perfect as God's is and God's logic is far, far beyond the capacity of our limited minds to comprehend completely. God is infinite. We are finite. It is impossible for our limited minds to comprehend to a full extent the infinite God. That is why the Trinity will never be explained clearly and it will never make complete sense to anyone here; that is something that we probably will only be able to comprehend when we get to our eternal home.

 

[face2face]

One important thing to remember when discussing understanding God: if you can comprehend the Trinitarian God completely and logically then that is not the true and living God. Just as we are created in the image of God and that image is under the curse right now and corrupted, so too is our logic. It is not perfect as God's is and God's logic is far, far beyond the capacity of our limited minds to comprehend completely. God is infinite. We are finite. It is impossible for our limited minds to comprehend to a full extent the infinite God. That is why the Trinity will never be explained clearly and it will never make complete sense to anyone here; that is something that we probably will only be able to comprehend when we get to our eternal home.

I wouldn't shallow that pill! Show me a Scripture that suggests we cannot know the Godhead and His Christ? If yours is still a mystery you are yet to know Him and His Son. John 17:3

 

[Aunty Jane]

One important thing to remember when discussing understanding God: if you can comprehend the Trinitarian God completely and logically then that is not the true and living God. Just as we are created in the image of God and that image is under the curse right now and corrupted, so too is our logic. It is not perfect as God's is and God's logic is far, far beyond the capacity of our limited minds to comprehend completely. God is infinite. We are finite. It is impossible for our limited minds to comprehend to a full extent the infinite God. That is why the Trinity will never be explained clearly and it will never make complete sense to anyone here; that is something that we probably will only be able to comprehend when we get to our eternal home.

The "trinity" will "never be explained clearly" because there is not a single passage of scripture that says Jesus is Almighty God.

Perhaps you can help us find an unequivocal statement for such an important doctrine, claimed by some to be the very foundation of Christianity....yet there is no proof that a triune God even exists.
Did the Jews believe God was "three"? Deuteronomy 6:4 was part of the Shema which was reinforced on a regular basis to remind the Jews that their God was nothing like the gods of the nations. The only 'trinities' in existence were in paganism. The concept is not found in the Bible at all....but we see it clearly in false religions....it originated in ancient Babylon, the birthplace of all false worship, and spread into all religion that was not God ordained.

Since Jesus was Jewish and raised only with Jewish scripture (out of which he and his apostles regularly quoted) don't you think he would have declared himself to be God if he was the Almighty? Why not come right out and say it? The reason why he never claimed equality with his God is because he is identified in the Bible as "God's holy servant" (Acts 4:27) Can God be his own servant? Can a son also be his own Father?
Can one part of God pray to his equal self? How ridiculous would you like this argument to get?

Did the apostles think that Jesus was God?
1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him."
Is this unequivocal?

Saying its a "mystery" is simply a cop out because there is no scriptural statement that Jesus is the equal of his God. In fact there is more direct scripture that disproves it, than supports it.
Revelation 3:12....written at the end of the first century long after Jesus' ascension....has him declaring....
"The one who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (NASB)
How can the son speak of his "God" even in heaven. Can God worship himself? Can you answer these questions? The Bible does very clearly.

 

[Enoch111]

...there is not a single passage of scripture that says Jesus is Almighty God.

Another lie from the devil. What else should we expect from you, after all the passages have been posted?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Another lie from the devil. What else should we expect from you, after all the passages have been posted?

There is not one unequivocal declaration from either God or his son that they are parts of the same God....
Please provide a clear admission that Jesus is equal to his God and Father....or that the Bible says that "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" are ever spoken about....

 

[face2face]

Another lie from the devil. What else should we expect from you, after all the passages have been posted?

Clear passages and their correct interpretation are being provided time and time again and yet this is your response Enoch? I've got misquoting of Scripture rampant in other threads by trinitarians who think "3 in 1 dogma" is in every text they quote, such is their ignorance and folly. If Aunty Jane is so flawed in their exegesis why not deal with the text? Do you have the tools?

 

[L.A.M.B.]

When I read what so many here post, I'm like surely they don't really believe that................

This is what I see & question !
A.To many are indoctrinated by their organizations and or teachers ,preachers.
B.These preachers / teachers are false and I fear they may NOT even know the true God.
C.Do any study under the Holy Spirit for themselves or let this false teaching keep you blinded
D.How are any approaching the word, are you following teaching, oracles, documents, scripted lessons by your group ? Or are you prayerfully seeking God to reveal his inspired word ?
E.Why is the bible not rightly divided and in context.
F. Do any know the definition of cult.
G. Are souls and lives searched daily to make sure of good standing with him.
H. Is all of this just a thing you do but NOT really believe. It energizes but does not penetrate.
I. Are you still teachable ?
J. Why do some make the word of God seem incomprehensible, taking away the simplicity of the word.
K. Are you trying to compete.
L. Do you really believe in God at all.
M. Why must the word be broken down, , interpreted by language or commentary.
N.Do any understand faith.


There is ONLY one word of God that is inspired by the Spirit and moved upon men to write.

 

[face2face]

How can the son speak of his "God" even in heaven. Can God worship himself? Can you answer these questions? The Bible does very clearly.

Same issue with Hebrews 2:11-13

he is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, in the midst of the assembly I will praise you.”“I will be confident in him,” and again, “Here I am, with the children God has given me.”

You would have God in the midst of His Own assembly worshiping Himself

 

[farouk]

The Logos is the creative principle which orders the universe. I think John was saying exactly what he meant, and meant what exactly what he said.

@Lambano John 1 is an amazing chapter.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

Same issue with Hebrews 2:11-13

he is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters, in the midst of the assembly I will praise you.”“I will be confident in him,” and again, “Here I am, with the children God has given me.”

You would have God in the midst of His Own assembly worshiping Himself

This is another good point.....Jesus calls his disciples his "brothers and sisters"......yet the Father calls them his children.
It is a completely different relationship.

 

[TLHKAJ]

Matthew 23:37
[37]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[TLHKAJ]

Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

 

[face2face]

Matthew 23:37
[37]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

How often I have longed to gather your children. Jesus, like a lamenting prophet, speaks for God here, who longed to care tenderly for Israel and protect her.

The blessing stills stands!

Psalms 118:26 May the one who comes in the name of the Lord be blessed! We will pronounce blessings on you in the Lord’s temple.

 

[Enoch111]

If Aunty Jane is so flawed in their exegesis why not deal with the text?

And what do you do when the text itself is corrupted to support a heresy?

One passage should suffice to show that (1) Jesus is God and (2) the Jehovah's Witnesses corrupted that passage to DENY that Jesus is God. Instead they made a ludicrous translation.

Both the Greek Received Text and the Critical Text are identical for John 1:1:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Every English translation says the same thing, and The NET Bible even says "and the Word was FULLY God". This verse does not need any exegesis since the meaning is plain and clear.

So what did the New World Translation (NWT) of the JWs do to this verse (which is more than sufficient to establish the deity of Christ)? The NWT is accessible online for anyone to verify what I have posted below.

New World Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Now think about that. "a god" means that there are many false gods out there and Jesus (the Word) is one of those false gods, since Christians believe that there is only one true God.

So for Aunty Jane to claim that there is not a single verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is God is a plainly blatant lie, and that lie is from the devil. It was the devil who came to Christ and said "If thou be the Son of God..." (and we all know that the Son of God is in fact God from John 1:1).

 

[face2face]

Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

Ah yes "shall be called"...love that! The work of the Kingdom age with zeal for His Fathers house (Isaiah 9:7).

As Christ said: "I can of mine own self do nothing". (John 5:30).

 

[face2face]

And what do you do when the text itself is corrupted to support a heresy?

One passage should suffice to show that (1) Jesus is God and (2) the Jehovah's Witnesses corrupted that passage to DENY that Jesus is God. Instead they made a ludicrous translation.

Both the Greek Received Text and the Critical Text are identical for John 1:1:
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Every English translation says the same thing, and The NET Bible even says "and the Word was FULLY God". This verse does not need any exegesis since the meaning is plain and clear.

So what did the New World Translation (NWT) of the JWs do to this verse (which is more than sufficient to establish the deity of Christ)? The NWT is accessible online for anyone to verify what I have posted below.

New World Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Now think about that. "a god" means that there are many false gods out there and Jesus (the Word) is one of those false gods, since Christians believe that there is only one true God.

So for Aunty Jane to claim that there is not a single verse in the Bible that says that Jesus is God is a plainly blatant lie, and that lie is from the devil. It was the devil who came to Christ and said "If thou be the Son of God..." (and we all know that the Son of God is in fact God from John 1:1).

The issue Enoch, is you don't have a Scripture to support your trinitarian formula and the repetition of special pleading on John 1 does nothing to improve your position. I am not a JW and yet I can see clearly God Almighty is One God not truine.

 

[Enoch111]

The issue Enoch, is you don't have a Scripture to support your trinitarian formula and the repetition of special pleading on John 1 does nothing to improve your position.

Now you are simply being disingenuous. John 1:1 does two things: (1) it proclaims the deity of Christ and (2) it establishes that there are AT LEAST two persons in the Godhead. Then Matthew 28:19 and 1 John 5:7 complete the Trinity, so don't tell me there are no Scriptures to support the Trinity. That is another lie of the devil.

 

[Johann]

Please explain Johann....
John 10:31-36...
“31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?” (KJV)

Jesus said that Yahweh himself called the human judges in Israel “gods”....so those divinely appointed can also carry the designation “theos”. Who can say that Christ was not “divinely appointed”?
It means any god or goddess true or false, and is not a word exclusive to Yahweh.
Even satan is called “theos” in 2 Corinthians 4:4.

What did Jesus call himself? Did he say to his Jewish opposers, “yes you have it right, I am God”?

If the divine name was still in use, or if the Bible translators had retained the divine name in all the places where it was originally found, (like the ASV) John 1:1 would read very differently. It would say...
“In the beginning, was the Word and the Word was with Yahweh and the Word was divine”.

You seem to read right over the things that make it ridiculous....”in the beginning” means what? If Jesus was God then he is eternal like his Father and had no “beginning”. So what is this the “beginning” of? Revelation 3:14 says it is “the beginning God’s creation”, which Jesus here says is himself.
And if the “Logos” was “with” Yahweh, how can he at the same time, be Yahweh? And where is the third equal person in this trio? “He” is invariably missing when Yahweh and his son are mentioned, most notably in John 17:3...
“3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.” (KJV) Don’t we need to know the Holy Spirit in order to gain eternal life?

As I said, there is not a single unequivocal statement from either Yahweh or his Son that they share any kind of equality or co-eternity. They always present themselves as two separate entities who are in complete unity with one another. One is said to be the “servant” of his “God”. One prays to the other and they can be in two locations at the same time......

One scripture Johann, from either one stating that they are both God equally with the Holy Spirit.....
Surely you can find one....?

Nope, what you are doing is strengthening that the D'var of JHVH is true and you want to rewrite it.

Num_23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Joh_9:16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Pro_30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

J.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Matthew 23:37
[37]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Perhaps you were needing to highlight "thy children" which is not "my children". Jerusalem's children.....not Jesus' children.

Isaiah 9:6
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.”

A more careful reading would be in order here I believe....?

"A child is born".....can God be born as a child, was this required to redeem mankind?
Please show us where being "God" is a requirement for Jesus to be a savior of the human race....?
Do you know what the redemption laws in Israel were about? What was a redeemer? Do you know?

What "government" is to be upon his shoulder?

Was Jesus a "Wonderful Counsellor"....who was better?

Was he a "Mighty God"? Yes he was under the definition of "el", (god, god-like one, mighty one) but you notice he was not "Almighty God"...that designation fits only Yahweh. In Hebrew, Jesus is called ʼEl Gib·bohrʹ, “Mighty God” not ʼEl Shad·daiʹ "God Almighty".

Is he an "Eternal Father"? Yes, because "'āḇ" (Father) means "

1. father of an individual
   
2. of God as father of his people
   
3. head or founder of a household, group, family, or clan
   
4. 
   ancestor" (Strongs)

What about "Prince of Peace"...what is a Prince? He is the son of a King....calling God a "Prince" would be rather insulting, don't you think?
Like calling Jesus a "servant" (Acts 4:27)...that would also be insulting if he was "God".

So, Jesus can be all those things without being "Yahweh".
Unless you do word studies in the original languages, you will miss vital information that will lead you down the wrong path.
You can only be led if you want to be. But what if its you guys who are being misled?