This really grabbed me today!

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Lambano

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I mean, pick an argument OTHER than this one. Surely you’ve seen it, right?
The verses that always get trotted out are the ones which show the Father and the Son relating to each other as separate Persons. These verses are not only those that talk about Jesus in His human incarnation, but also in His pre-incarnate form (such as in your OP Colossians passage and in the recently discussed Philippians passage) and in His glorified Revelations form. Surely you see that? But these and other passages talk about Him having the characteristics of God, and there can only be one God. That is why the recognized orthodox doctrine say different persons, same essence. And it’s a hot mess.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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The verses that always get trotted out are the ones which show the Father and the Son relating to each other as separate Persons. These verses are not only those that talk about Jesus in His human incarnation, but also in His pre-incarnate form (such as in your OP Colossians passage and in the recently discussed Philippians passage) and in His glorified Revelations form. Surely you see that? But these and other passages talk about Him having the characteristics of God, and there can only be one God. That is why the recognized orthodox doctrine say different persons, same essence. And it’s a hot mess.

I personally do not have a problem with the one God taking on human flesh. It does not make Him two different Gods to me that God manifested in that way to us. He manifested as a burning bush to one man.
I mean, it’s just not something my mind snags on.
 
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Lambano

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I personally do not have a problem with the one God taking on human flesh. It does not make Him two different Gods to me that God manifested in that way to us. He manifested as a burning bush to one man.
I mean, it’s just not something my mind snags on.
How do you feel about the “relating as separate persons in all eternity” bit? Those verses have to be true too.
 

stunnedbygrace

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How do you feel about the “relating as separate persons in all eternity” bit? Those verses have to be true too.

Well…hmmm…
We will see Him as He is and He turns everything back over to the Father. But He has to rule until every enemy is put under His feet. But we will one day see Him as He really is.
 
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Enoch111

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You mean the Logos he became is the Creator. The messiah is a spiritual creation in himself (firstborn) like all those he represents.
There is no need to play word games. Jesus is the Logos, the Word, the Creator, the Messiah, the Savior, the King of the Jews, as well as the Lamb of God (and many other names and titles). This is God the Son, the second person of the triune Godhead. He calls Himself "I AM", a name exclusively reserved for God.
 

face2face

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There is no need to play word games. Jesus is the Logos, the Word, the Creator, the Messiah, the Savior, the King of the Jews, as well as the Lamb of God (and many other names and titles). This is God the Son, the second person of the triune Godhead. He calls Himself "I AM", a name exclusively reserved for God.

No Jesus became the Logos - that's the whole point of him "being" perfected, which of course he wasn't before Hebrews 5:9. It's impossible to say Jesus was perfect when out his own mouth he said "Only One Who is good!!!" Mark 10:18. You guys have your heads so full of trinitarian dogma 99% of Scripture is useless to you.

Ah...the One is not three - it's ONE - One God, Yahweh, Jesus' Creator and Father.
 
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Brakelite

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I'm kinda agreeing with you that "form", being a "characteristic", should be considered in defining "nature". Then when we say "Christ has two nature", we mean He can only have one at a time. Is His "mind" part of His nature, or the same independent of His current form?
We understand Jesus as being divine, and human. Scripture tells us that is so, scripture does not tell is how it is so. I think we should leave it at that.
 

face2face

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scripture does not tell is how it is so. I think we should leave it at that.

I think this is telling of the Trinitarian position - the nature of Christ is indefineble where the Apostle Paul makes it super clear!

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil).

1. What is the adversary (devil) being alluded to here?
2. Why does it have the power of death?
3. How did God condemn sin in the flesh in Jesus Christ Romans 8:1-3
 

stunnedbygrace

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...only God does!

No, apparently He doesnt have a problem with it! He commands every angel and every human to worship my Lord!

Then you come along and say, not so! God didn’t really say that, did He…?

So we can easily see who you are speaking through and who is manipulating your flesh.
 
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Johann

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I think there's a fairly good reason for form being included.
Being in the form of God (ἐν μορφῇ Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων)
Being. Not the simple είναι to be, but stronger, denoting being which is from the beginning. See on Jas_2:15. It has a backward look into an antecedent condition, which has been protracted into the present. Here appropriate to the preincarnate being of Christ, to which the sentence refers. In itself it does not imply eternal, but only prior existence. Form (μορφή). We must here dismiss from our minds the idea of shape.

The word is used in its philosophic sense, to denote that expression of being which carries in itself the distinctive nature and character of the being to whom it pertains, and is thus permanently identified with that nature and character.

Thus it is distinguished from σχῆμα fashion, comprising that which appeals to the senses and which is changeable.

Μορφή form is identified with the essence of a person or thing: σχῆμα fashion is an accident which may change without affecting the form.

For the manner in which this difference is developed in the kindred verbs, see on Mat_17:2.
As applied here to God, the word is intended to describe that mode in which the essential being of God expresses itself. We have no word which can convey this meaning, nor is it possible for us to formulate the reality.

Form inevitably carries with it to us the idea of shape
. It is conceivable that the essential personality of God may express itself in a mode apprehensible by the perception of pure spiritual intelligences; but the mode itself is neither apprehensible nor conceivable by human minds.

This mode of expression, this setting of the divine essence, is not identical with the essence itself, but is identified with it, as its natural and appropriate expression, answering to it in every particular. It is the perfect expression of a perfect essence.

It is not something imposed from without, but something which proceeds from the very depth of the perfect being, and into which that being perfectly unfolds, as light from fire.

To say, then, that Christ was in the form of God, is to say that He existed as essentially one with God. The expression of deity through human nature (Php_2:7) thus has its background in the expression of deity as deity in the eternal ages of God's being.

Whatever the mode of this expression, it marked the being of Christ in the eternity before creation.

As the form of God was identified with the being of God, so Christ, being in the form of God, was identified with the being, nature, and personality of God.


This form, not being identical with the divine essence, but dependent upon it, and necessarily implying it, can be parted with or laid aside. Since Christ is one with God, and therefore pure being, absolute existence, He can exist without the form. This form of God Christ laid aside in His incarnation.

Thought it not robbery to be equal with God (οὐχ ἁρπαγμὸν ἡγήσατο τὸ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ)
Robbery is explained in three ways. 1. A robbing, the act. 2. The thing robbed, a piece of plunder. 3. A prize, a thing to be grasped. Here in the last sense.
Paul does not then say, as A.V., that Christ did not think it robbery to be equal with God: for, 1, that fact goes without. saying in the previous expression, being in the form of God. 2. On this explanation the statement is very awkward.

Christ, being in the form of God, did not think it robbery to be equal with God; but, after which we should naturally expect, on the other hand, claimed and asserted equality: whereas the statement is:

Christ was in the form of God and did not think it robbery to be equal with God, but (instead) emptied Himself. Christ held fast His assertion of divine dignity, but relinquished it. The antithesis is thus entirely destroyed.
Taking the word ἁρπαγμὸν (A.V., robbery) to mean a highly prized possession, we understand Paul to say that Christ, being, before His incarnation, in the form of God, did not regard His divine equality as a prize which was to be grasped at and retained at all hazards, but, on the contrary, laid aside the form of God, and took upon Himself the nature of man.

The emphasis in the passage is upon Christ's humiliation. The fact of His equality with God is stated as a background, in order to throw the circumstances of His incarnation into stronger relief. Hence the peculiar form of Paul's statement Christ's great object was to identify Himself with humanity; not to appear to men as divine but as human. Had He come into the world emphasizing His equality with God, the world would have been amazed, but not saved He did not grasp at this. The rather He counted humanity His prize, and so laid aside the conditions of His preexistent state, and became man.

i think Vincent answers this in an excellent way, indeed a scholar, and not those who think they are scholars.....

Being (huparchōn). Rather, “existing,” present active participle of huparchō. In the form of God (en morphēi theou).

Morphē means the essential attributes as shown in the form.

In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ.

Short, but powerfully stated by Robertson. A true scholar.


Who] in His pre-existent glory. We have in this passage a N.T. counterpart to the O.T. revelation of Messiah’s “coming to do the will of His God” (Psa_40:6-8, interpreted Heb_10:5).


being] The Greek word slightly indicates that He not only “was,” but “already was,” in a state antecedent to and independent of the action to be described. R.V. margin has “Gr. originally being”; but the American Revisers dissent.

Wonder why the ARV would "dissent?"

in the form of God] The word rendered “form” is morphê. This word, unlike our “form” in its popular meaning, connotes reality along with appearance, or in other words denotes an appearance which is manifestation.

It thus differs from the word (schêma) rendered “fashion” in Php_2:8 below; where see note. See notes on Rom_12:2 in this Series for further remarks on the difference between the two words; and cp. for full discussions, Abp Trench’s Synonyms, under μορφή, and Bp Lightfoot’s Philippians, detached note to ch. 2.


Here then our Redeeming Lord is revealed as so subsisting “in the form of God” that He was what He seemed, and seemed what He was—God. (See further, the next note below, and on Php_2:7.) “Though [morphκ] is not the same as [ousia, essence], yet the possession of the [morphκ] involves participation in the [ousia] also, for [morphκ] implies not the external accidents [only?] but the essential attributes” (Lightfoot).

Clear answer and @Lambano couldn't answer, forgetting the "attributes" Since he approach the scriptures in "a different manner"

Another piece of scholarly work done by scholars from Cambridge.

Hopefully this will shine a little light for those who appreciate and love our Lord and great God Christ Jesus.
J.
 

Johann

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I think this is telling of the Trinitarian position - the nature of Christ is indefineble where the Apostle Paul makes it super clear!

Hebrews 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity, so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil).

1. What is the adversary (devil) being alluded to here?
2. Why does it have the power of death?
3. How did God condemn sin in the flesh in Jesus Christ Romans 8:1-3
Diverting, as usual.
J.
 
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Johann

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I think this is telling of the Trinitarian position
Which is biblically correct, a blow to Monotheism.
Problem here is, the Oneness and Trinitarians can walk together since we worship our Abba dia Christ Jesus Who also is to be worshipped. You have gone too far, and totally redefined scriptures, boldly and not being ashamed.
...there is a ישׁ דרך ישׁר לפני־אישׁ ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃


צוף־דבשׁ אמרי־נעם מתוק לנפשׁ ומרפא לעצם׃
ישׁ דרך ישׁר לפני־אישׁ ואחריתה דרכי־מות׃
נפשׁ עמל עמלה לו כי־אכף עליו פיהו׃
J.
 

farouk

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When I read what so many here post, I'm like surely they don't really believe that................

This is what I see & question !
A.To many are indoctrinated by their organizations and or teachers ,preachers.
B.These preachers / teachers are false and I fear they may NOT even know the true God.
C.Do any study under the Holy Spirit for themselves or let this false teaching keep you blinded
D.How are any approaching the word, are you following teaching, oracles, documents, scripted lessons by your group ? Or are you prayerfully seeking God to reveal his inspired word ?
E.Why is the bible not rightly divided and in context.
F. Do any know the definition of cult.
G. Are souls and lives searched daily to make sure of good standing with him.
H. Is all of this just a thing you do but NOT really believe. It energizes but does not penetrate.
I. Are you still teachable ?
J. Why do some make the word of God seem incomprehensible, taking away the simplicity of the word.
K. Are you trying to compete.
L. Do you really believe in God at all.
M. Why must the word be broken down, , interpreted by language or commentary.
N.Do any understand faith.


There is ONLY one word of God that is inspired by the Spirit and moved upon men to write.
Hi @L3astAm0ngManyB13ss3d What we indeed need is proper exegesis of the Word, as led of the Spirit of God, rather than eisegesis which is reading opinions and traditions into the Word!
 
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Johann

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No, you're heading in the direction in which I wanted you to go.
You don't even know what dual nature means or can you define it.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Rev_5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

a Lamb: An emblematical representation of our Saviour's high priesthood. Rev_5:9, Rev_5:12, Rev_6:16, Rev_7:9-17, Rev_12:11, Rev_13:8, Rev_17:14, Rev_21:23, Rev_22:1, Rev_22:3; Isa_53:7-8; Joh_1:29, Joh_1:36; Act_8:32; 1Pe_1:19-20

You don't "see" it, do you F2F
J.

Rev 5:6 And I saw between the Kes (Throne) and the Arbah Chayyot (four living beings) and among the Zekenim (Elders, SHEMOT 12:21) a SEH (Lamb, YESHAYAH 53:7, Moshiach) having stood as having been slain, having sheva karnayim (horns, omnipotence), sheva eynayim (eyes, omniscience), which are the sheva ruchot (spirits) of Hashem having been sent into kol ha'aretz (all the earth).
OJB.

Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.