Obedience to God:

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RichardBurger

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Obedience to God:

The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)

In the following study we will see what "obedience” really means under grace.

Matthew 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and King.

Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.

Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.

Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.
One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.

Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.

Saying "He kept the law" should be seen as He kept the "spirit of the law." Jesus did not keep the legal definitions of the law. It should also be seen that he broke the legal definitions of the law and had faith in God that it was the right thing to do. His healing the sick on the Sabbath was the right thing to do even though it broke the legal definition of the law.

In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.

John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.

Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.

I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.

Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV

Their faith, not their works (verse 8)

Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ
 

Prentis

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We are obedient when we follow him. His call is the same; 'follow me'.

That includes trusting in him, and also dying with him. :)
 

Rach1370

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Jesus tells us that the law is summed up in just two commands: love God, and love others. These things He asks us to do. But truly, the 10 Commandments can really be summed up under those two commands.
If we truly love God and love others, we won't have idols, we won't dishonour our parents, we won't murder, or covet. And we know that through the help of the Holy Spirit, we can love God and others!
 

Jake

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Jesus tells us that the law is summed up in just two commands: love God, and love others. These things He asks us to do. But truly, the 10 Commandments can really be summed up under those two commands.
If we truly love God and love others, we won't have idols, we won't dishonour our parents, we won't murder, or covet. And we know that through the help of the Holy Spirit, we can love God and others!
Yes.

Jesus said if we love Him, we would obey His commandments. It doesn't mean to simply believe in them, it means to do them.

Richard -

Obedience means a submission to what is heard - meaning you do what the Spirit tells you to do.

There is only one gospel.
 

RichardBurger

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Yes.

Jesus said if we love Him, we would obey His commandments. It doesn't mean to simply believe in them, it means to do them.

Richard -

Obedience means a submission to what is heard - meaning you do what the Spirit tells you to do.

There is only one gospel.

I will stick to what I wrote. I believe it to be true. Obeying the Gospel of grace by placing your faith in it is obedience.
 

Jake

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The thing is the gospel is for Jew and Greek, there is no division now, all believers everywhere are now the Body of Christ.

You can not take, out of the Bible, what one person said and apply it to you, without taking its entire council. What you have done was taken SOME of what Paul said and ignored ALL of what Jesus said, and now you are left with so many holes and error, misinterpetations and incorrect meanings, that you've invented the gospel according to Richard, now you are faced with what the Bible says about false teachers! It isn't good, in case you skip over that part, too.
 

RichardBurger

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We are obedient when we follow him. His call is the same; 'follow me'.

That includes trusting in him, and also dying with him. :)

We are obedient when we believe God. Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles with a message of God's grace through Jesus' work on the cross. We are to believe in His work. We are to place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. We are not to have confidence in our works.

The thing is the gospel is for Jew and Greek, there is no division now, all believers everywhere are now the Body of Christ.

You can not take, out of the Bible, what one person said and apply it to you, without taking its entire council. What you have done was taken SOME of what Paul said and ignored ALL of what Jesus said, and now you are left with so many holes and error, misinterpetations and incorrect meanings, that you've invented the gospel according to Richard, now you are faced with what the Bible says about false teachers! It isn't good, in case you skip over that part, too.

Let me make it clear that Jesus Christ, by His own words, did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" TO the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

IMPORTANT NOTE: -- This is not to say that God did not have another purpose for Jesus' death on the cross. But that purpose was “hidden in God” and revealed to Paul on the road to Damascus by Jesus. (Eph 3:9)

IMHO, all of those that try and blend the message to the Jews, under the Law of Moses, and Paul's message of grace (no law) are preverting the word of God.
 

Prentis

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What you say amounts to Jesus coming to destroy the law and the prophets, but he came to fulfill them. In doing so, he has given us new life and the power to be as he is, spiritual.

[sup]17[/sup] From Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. [sup]18[/sup] And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, [.........] so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
[sup]25[/sup] “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.


Paul himself says that the gospel of the grace of God IS the preaching of the Kingdom of God. Grace is the means to walk as he walked and obey him, in the Spirit.
 

Jake

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Richard,

Even Paul knew the truth about this, the Israelites were blinded, SO the gentiles could also partake of His promises.

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not my people "my people" and her who was not beloved, "beloved".

In God's perfect plan, the Jews were blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in - even Paul knew this!

Romans 11:25 "For I do not want you brethren, to be uniformed of this mystery, so you will not be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

They all preached the SAME gospel, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, Peter was sent to the Jews - but it was the SAME gospel! There is only one covenant, one passed away and was replaced with the new.

Hebrews 8;13 "When He said, "A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete, but whatever is obsolete is growing old and is ready to disappear."

Hebrews 10:9 "Behold, I have come to do your will, He comes to take away the first, to establish the second."

Jesus came in the flesh for the whole world! You are now preaching that Christ performed His ministry for only the Jews! That is the craziest man-made doctrine I have ever heard.
 

Perspectives

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Psalm 50:12. If I were hungry, I would not tell you. For the world is mine, and all it's fullness. I would recomend reading the entire chapter. What I see here is most of His people don't know what they're dealing with, the greater tragedy is many don't know who they are! To whom we belong! The only thing God hungers for is obedience in His people. Not much to require after all He has done!
 

Thankful 1

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Obedience to God:

The Obedience of Faith: (Obedient to the faith, Acts 6:7)

In the following study we will see what "obedience” really means under grace.

Matthew 6:28-29, below, indicates that our work of faith is to believe in Jesus Christ.

Mathew 6:28-29 (NKJV)
28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?"
29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Acts 6:7, below, refers to some of the Jewish "priests as being obedient to the faith." Of course it means that they believed the gospel regarding Jesus being the Jewish Messiah and King.

Acts 6:7 (NKJ)
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Romans 6:17, below, again is in reference to the belief of the Christians in Rome, both Jews and Gentiles by saying they "obeyed" the doctrine that Paul taught them; That doctrine concerning the dying of Jesus on the cross for our sins and His resurrection from the dead which confirmed that He (Jesus) was sent by God.

Rom 6:17 (NKJ)
17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.

Romans 11:30-32, below, describes the situation of the Jews as that of "disobedient" as were the Gentiles prior to believing the gospel. The KJV says they were "unbelieving." The words "unbelieving" and "disobedient" are chosen by different translators to represent the same Greek word.

Rom 11:30-32 (NKJ)
30 For as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their (the Jews) disobedience,
31 even so these (Jews) also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you (Gentiles) they (the Jews) also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all (Jews and Gentiles) to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The above scriptures are a few of those that teach the obedience of faith is about faith in Christ (Faith in His work on the cross), rather than Decalogue (the ten commandments) observance.

Legalists think this is no problem. They simply reason that the Jews were disobedient because they retained the law ""without"" Christ. Legalists feel they have remedied this: they have retained the law ""with Christ.""

Thus legalists define faith as ""inclusive"" of the law, when the Bible defines it as ""exclusive"" of the law - ("The law is not of faith, Gal. 3:11-12 below").

Gal 3:11-12 (NKJ)
11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

One would be hard-pressed to identify a more central error in the mind of the legalist than recursively: submission/inclusion of Christian principles to/within a legal construct, and redefinition of the whole as Christianity.
One of the most striking definitions of the "obedience of faith" is found in Romans 10:16. It is a parallelism equating "belief" with "obey [ing]" the gospel.

Rom 10:16 (NKJ)
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
The Law is not of Faith; That is, disobedience's being defined as disbelief, produces the paradox that to obey the law, is to disobey God. For our obeying the Law is self-usurping Christ's work on the cross. In other words Jesus was the only one that actually kept the law.

Saying "He kept the law" should be seen as He kept the "spirit of the law." Jesus did not keep the legal definitions of the law. It should also be seen that he broke the legal definitions of the law and had faith in God that it was the right thing to do. His healing the sick on the Sabbath was the right thing to do even though it broke the legal definition of the law.

In John 3:17-18 John wrote that the sin, which condemns, is the sin of "unbelief." John also wrote what Jesus said in John 16:8-9 below.

John 3:17-18 (NKJ)
17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 16:8-9 (NKJ)
8 "And when He has come (The Holy Spirit), He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 "of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

So we see that obedience of Faith is not the same as obedience to the Jewish Law. Obedience to the faith is placing your faith, trust, confidence and hope in what Jesus (God) did on the cross.
--- let me say it another way, today, we are obedient when we place our faith in God’s work on the cross.

Another passage that destroys the myth of a law based Christian faith is found in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 below.

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 (NKJ)
8 rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:
9 who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
10 when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Note that those who "obey not the gospel" in verse 8 are contrasted with those "who believe" in verse 10. This is important.

I seem to have left out these two other scriptures that support what I am saying in this article.

Rom 1:1-9
1 Paul, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God
2 which He promised before through His prophets in the Holy Scriptures,
3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
NKJV

Their faith, not their works (verse 8)

Rom 16:25-27 NKJV
25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith
27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ
(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”
 

prism

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An often overlooked point...

Hebrews 8;13 "When He said, "A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete, but whatever is obsolete is growing old and is ready to disappear."

Hebrews 10:9 "Behold, I have come to do your will, He comes to take away the first, to establish the second."

The problem with this objection is that for the Jews there are two Covenants. But for the Church, the Body of Christ (made up of present believers both Jews and Gentiles) there is pure unconditional grace.
I have been around since '74.Charismatic/Pentecostal, non=denom,Calvinist and Lutheran as well as some sprinkling of Anglican.
I have found that the 'Mid-Acts' position has offered the best framework in reconciling the Christian walk and the apparent contradictions between Paul's teachings and the Gospels,Revelation and the General epistles.
I also have never seen against any other christian hermeneutic such antagonism as I do on many forums against the mid-Acts position. To boot it comes from those who obviously have not personally studied that position.
 

RichardBurger

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What you say amounts to Jesus coming to destroy the law and the prophets, but he came to fulfill them. In doing so, he has given us new life and the power to be as he is, spiritual.

Paul himself says that the gospel of the grace of God IS the preaching of the Kingdom of God. Grace is the means to walk as he walked and obey him, in the Spirit.

I said very little. But I quoted the words of Jesus in Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ), Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ), and what Paul said in Rom 15:8 (NKJ) but it seems you don't believe these verses.

Richard,

Even Paul knew the truth about this, the Israelites were blinded, SO the gentiles could also partake of His promises.

Romans 9:25 As He says also in Hosea,
“I will call those who were not my people "my people" and her who was not beloved, "beloved".

In God's perfect plan, the Jews were blinded, until the fullness of the Gentiles come in - even Paul knew this!

Romans 11:25 "For I do not want you brethren, to be uniformed of this mystery, so you will not be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fulness of the Gentiles come in.

They all preached the SAME gospel, Paul was sent to the Gentiles, Peter was sent to the Jews - but it was the SAME gospel! There is only one covenant, one passed away and was replaced with the new.

Hebrews 8;13 "When He said, "A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete, but whatever is obsolete is growing old and is ready to disappear."

Hebrews 10:9 "Behold, I have come to do your will, He comes to take away the first, to establish the second."

Jesus came in the flesh for the whole world! You are now preaching that Christ performed His ministry for only the Jews! That is the craziest man-made doctrine I have ever heard.

So it is the same gospel but with changes, right?! He took away the first to establish the second --- What was taken away and what replaced it?

Your verses, Hebrews 8;13 and Hebrews 10:9 confirm that one was replaced with another and that confirms what I have said. There was a gospel of the Jewish kingdom under the law and it was replaced with the gospel of Grace.
 

RichardBurger

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(1 Corinthians 6:9-19) “You know perfectly well that people who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God: people of immoral lives, idolaters, adulterers, catamites, sodomites, thieves, usurers, drunkards, slanders and swindlers will never inherit the kingdom of God.”

1 Corinthians 6:9-12
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
NKJV

Even though we still sin in the flesh we have already been washed, sanctified, and justified by the Spirit. Not that we don't still do those things but "in Christ" they are covered by the blood and God has imputed us with """His Righteousness""" not our righteousness. In other words we trust in God.

A person is brought under the power of their sins when they think they are condemned by them. It is to not have faith in the power of the blood and think they can make themsleves righteous by what they do.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NKJV
 

jiggyfly

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What you say amounts to Jesus coming to destroy the law and the prophets, but he came to fulfill them. In doing so, he has given us new life and the power to be as he is, spiritual.

[sup]17[/sup] From Miletus he (Paul) sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. [sup]18[/sup] And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, [.........] so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
[sup]25[/sup] “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more.

Paul himself says that the gospel of the grace of God IS the preaching of the Kingdom of God. Grace is the means to walk as he walked and obey him, in the Spirit.


If the Law has been fulfilled what is left to do? If it has been completed perfectly, why does it need to be redone??
 

Prentis

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It does to be fulfilled in us, jiggyfly, we are the body of Christ. :)

Christ has fulfilled it, and now he lives in us. Our being dead and his living through us is the reflection of his fulfillement. Consider also Colossians 1:24 : it is for the sake of the church, that she be conformed to his image. For those, the men of God suffer.

Christ has come that we may partake of him, and be conformed to his image. His death pays for our iniquities, but his ressurection gives us power to overcome.

Noah's faith required that he build the ark, ours requires that we 'build' Christ in us, that we travail until he be born in us. We must realize the unfaithful servant is cast out! We have need of being shaped into the same image as Christ and his character.
 

jiggyfly

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It does to be fulfilled in us, jiggyfly, we are the body of Christ. :)

Christ has fulfilled it, and now he lives in us. Our being dead and his living through us is the reflection of his fulfillement. Consider also Colossians 1:24 : it is for the sake of the church, that she be conformed to his image. For those, the men of God suffer.

Christ has come that we may partake of him, and be conformed to his image. His death pays for our iniquities, but his ressurection gives us power to overcome.

Noah's faith required that he build the ark, ours requires that we 'build' Christ in us, that we travail until he be born in us. We must realize the unfaithful servant is cast out! We have need of being shaped into the same image as Christ and his character.

Can you post scripture to support the necessity of the Law being fulfilled in us?

I think I expressed my disagreement in another thread where you made the comment that we, the church or body of Christ give birth to Christ.

Well I still disagree, your comments are somewhat contrary, you say "we have need of being shaped into Christ's image" yet you say "that we are required to build Christ in us". It looks like your trying to justify a works based religion here, maybe you can clarify what you saying a little better.
 

RichardBurger

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An often overlooked point...

Hebrews 8;13 "When He said, "A new covenant" He has made the first obsolete, but whatever is obsolete is growing old and is ready to disappear."

Hebrews 10:9 "Behold, I have come to do your will, He comes to take away the first, to establish the second."

The problem with this objection is that for the Jews there are two Covenants. But for the Church, the Body of Christ (made up of present believers both Jews and Gentiles) there is pure unconditional grace.
I have been around since '74.Charismatic/Pentecostal, non=denom,Calvinist and Lutheran as well as some sprinkling of Anglican.
I have found that the 'Mid-Acts' position has offered the best framework in reconciling the Christian walk and the apparent contradictions between Paul's teachings and the Gospels,Revelation and the General epistles.
I also have never seen against any other christian hermeneutic such antagonism as I do on many forums against the mid-Acts position. To boot it comes from those who obviously have not personally studied that position.

Good reply! I agree with you.
 

Prentis

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Can you post scripture to support the necessity of the Law being fulfilled in us?

I think I expressed my disagreement in another thread where you made the comment that we, the church or body of Christ give birth to Christ.

Well I still disagree, your comments are somewhat contrary, you say "we have need of being shaped into Christ's image" yet you say "that we are required to build Christ in us". It looks like your trying to justify a works based religion here, maybe you can clarify what you saying a little better.

Is it a works based religion when Jesus says 'unless you leave everything and come and follow me you cannot be my disciple'? No, it is love based. Our love for God is what ends up saving us. Here's a scripture:

Colossians 1:24
[ Sacrificial Service for Christ ] I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
Something is lacking in the afflictions of Christ??? So it says. What is means is that we are his body, does the head suffer and not the body? Is a servant greater than his master? If we follow him, we will suffer trials and tribulations, and 'all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution'.

It's like this jiggyfly, we are given the spirit and grace freely, but so that we do something with it; overcome and be conformed to Christ. The Lord is merciful and if we will cry out to him, and have mercy on others, he will have mercy on us. But we must grow in love. Our heart must become bigger and bigger, able to be filled with his love that we would always follow him.

The Lord's love is not soft as a mother's love, but strong as a father's love.

PS. When I say our love saves us, it is because our love is what makes us abide in Christ, our salvation. You have to be in the ark to be saved, Christ is our ark.
 

jiggyfly

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Is it a works based religion when Jesus says 'unless you leave everything and come and follow me you cannot be my disciple'? No, it is love based. Our love for God is what ends up saving us. Here's a scripture:

Colossians 1:24
[ Sacrificial Service for Christ ] I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,
Something is lacking in the afflictions of Christ??? So it says. What is means is that we are his body, does the head suffer and not the body? Is a servant greater than his master? If we follow him, we will suffer trials and tribulations, and 'all who live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution'.

It's like this jiggyfly, we are given the spirit and grace freely, but so that we do something with it; overcome and be conformed to Christ. The Lord is merciful and if we will cry out to him, and have mercy on others, he will have mercy on us. But we must grow in love. Our heart must become bigger and bigger, able to be filled with his love that we would always follow him.

The Lord's love is not soft as a mother's love, but strong as a father's love.

PS. When I say our love saves us, it is because our love is what makes us abide in Christ, our salvation. You have to be in the ark to be saved, Christ is our ark.

But can you post some scripture to support the law being fulfilled in us?