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Obedience to God:

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by RichardBurger, Sep 29, 2011.

  1. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Hmmm.... Here's one.

    Romans 8
    [sup]3[/sup] For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, [sup]4[/sup] that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. [sup]5[/sup] For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

    Okay, it says the requirement of the law. My understanding of it is that if we walk in Christ, the law is fulfilled through us because we are the body of Christ :)
     
  2. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    According to the scriptures our faith overcomes to world but there are some here that say it is our works of righteousness which God called fithy rags.

    It was said, "If we walk in Christ, the law is fulfilled through us because we are the body of Christ". -- I don't think that is the reason. I think it to be because of our faith in Jesus' shed blood on the cross. The law was fulfilled by Jesus, not us. When we place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' shed blood to cover our sins we are placed "in Christ" -- since He fulfilled the law he fulfilled it for us. It is a big mistake to think that we have to fulfill the law by what we do while living in sinful flesh.
     
  3. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Because of his faith, Noah built the ark.

    This is the kind of faith that saves. Jesus calls us to follow him, saving faith follows him. He only is salvation, and we are safe only in him.
     
  4. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Thanks for posting the scripture Prentise. Have you looked at this scripture in the Greek text or any other translations?
    First even in the translation you posted, I don't see anything indicative of "through us", but it does say "in us".

    Here's another translation.
    1 So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.2 And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.3 The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.4 He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
    Romans 8:1-4 (NLT)

    I know that you are very aware of the importance of context, so for a moment let's back up to the previous chapter.
    6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
    Romans 7:6 (KJV)
    If we are truly delivered from the law then why should we regard any of the law's requirements, even if they are righteous? The truth is we shouldn't if we really believe that Christ satisfied those requirements on our behalf.

    Maybe this is our (you and me) point of conflict on this topic. Do you believe that Christ satisfied those requirements for you?

    Another question here Prentise. Do you think the things declared in Hebrews chapter 4 should have any consideration in this?
     
  5. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    My understanding is that those scriptures speak of the fact that yes, Christ has paid the price that no man could pay. But the paying of that price is what makes available to us the life that was in him, and the power to overcome. Christ has made it possible for man to walk in the Spirit, and to be as he is in this world. Christ has paid the price, he is our advocate. But this is what puts us INTO the race, then we have a race to run. We do not do it might, or by our own ways, but we seek the Lord and we do it by his spirit, in submission to him.

    As for Hebrews 4, I am not sure what you wish to point to. I looked it up, but am still not sure what you mean. :)
     
  6. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    So does this race continue on after our mortal life is over? If not what happens to those who began but fail to finish this race?



    In regards to Noah and his building of the ark. You use it to support your opinion that we must build Christ in us. How do you apply Hebrews 4 to your concept?
     
  7. Thankful 1

    Thankful 1 New Member

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    All this studding about God and it is just man’s understanding about God. We were told that the Holy Spirit would teach us about God.

    (John 16:13) “But when the Spirit of truth comes he will lead you to the complete truth, since he will not be speaking as from himself but will say only what he has learnt; and he will tell you of the things to come.”

    (John 14:26) “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything and remind you of all I have said to you.”

    People keep teaching each other about God, and they never come to know God. The only way to come to know God is to let God teach him or her.

    The best evidence that most people do not know God is that most people still sin.

    (1 John 3: 5 - 6) “ Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”

    (1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”

    (1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”





















     
  8. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    No. We must persevere to the end, that is, either the end of our lives or the return of the Lord. We must be 'faithful unto death'.

    For those who begin, but fail to finish, God is their judge. I do not judge them, God may have mercy on who he has mercy. But by the same I cannot judge myself, thus I must persevere, and by faith lay hold of the hope set before me, that is, to be conformed to him.

    It is not so much a concept, as it is an image. It says 'work out your salvation in fear and trembling', and it says that 'the love of God is to do his commands'. To have true faith is to obey God. Always perfectly? No, we grow. As Paul says, 'I serve God with my mind, and the sin with my flesh', that is what we call immaturity in the faith. But God gives us the power both to will AND to do what pleases him (Philippians).

    Hebrews 4 talks about entering his rest. At the end of Hebrews 3, entering this rest is likened to entering the promised land. It means that our soul is conquered by Christ. We no longer live for the desires of the flesh, but for the will of God. That is the rest. To enter his rest is to be walking in his life and no longer ours, and to be conformed to him. 'It is no longer I who lives but Christ who lives in me'. Here Paul exhorts Christian to enter the rest, I believe it is the same as James exhorting the brothers to continue unto the saving of the soul. The promised land is our soul, and we must conquer it. We have been quickened in spirit, freed from Egypt by the blood. But we must move on.

    Building Christ in us as an Ark is represented perfectly here.
    [sup]5[/sup] But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, [sup]6[/sup] to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, [sup]7[/sup] to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. [sup]8[/sup] For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [sup]9[/sup] For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
    [sup]10[/sup] Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; [sup]11[/sup] for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

    We must continue growing and bear fruit, otherwise we will be cut off. God has cleansed us from our OLD sins, but we must be diligent now to make our calling and election sure! IF you do this, you will never stumble. :)
     
  9. RichardBurger

    RichardBurger New Member

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    This is the kind of works, if you do this I will do that. The truth is that Noah BELIEVED God and was saved from the flood. Today we are to believe God's message of grace sent though Paul and be imputed with God's righteousness, since we have no righteousness in the flesh.

    It is no longer "if you will do this I will do this. God has accomplished everything neeeded by man to be save if you will just believe it.
     
  10. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Correct. It didn't matter if Noah didn't obey God, as long as he believed, he was saved from the flood. Being in the ark didn't save him, just like being in Christ doesn't save us, all that saves us is BELIEVING we are in Christ, or in the ark.

    Such statemements are ridiculous. Noah obeyed out of love, such it has to be with us. If the love of God is in us, we will obey his commands.

    True faith builds the ark and enters it. Dead faith believes it must be in the ark and thinks this knowledge saves it, but it doesn't.

    PS. (to jiggyfly) To enter his rest is to be submitted to him. When we are in perfect submission, we do only what the Father tells us to do. And what he tells us to do, he
    always gives us grace to do. It is rest, because we do our works no longer, but his.

    Christ was baptized, did he need to do so, to wash away his sins when he had none? No, but he says he does it that 'all righteousness might be fulfilled'. God comes to our level, and shows us an example. In the same sense God gives us an example when he rests from his works, as we are to rest from ours. But we were called for good works prepared in advance. We do those.
     
  11. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    So in other words you believe that the Christian can be cut out just like Israel but you don't believe that the Christian can be grafted back in like Israel will be, correct?

    How do you apply this scripture?
    Hebrews 12:1-6
     
  12. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Can he be grafted back in? That's possible, God may have mercy on who he has mercy. And if you mean a christian who is backslidden and comes back to the Lord, then he can definitely come back, we are to forgive as the Lord forgave. As long as we still have breath, the game is not over. But it does matter how we finish, and it is important that we persevere, the warnings we are provided are very serious.

    [sup]1[/sup] Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, [sup]2[/sup] looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
    [sup]3[/sup] For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. [sup]4[/sup] You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. [sup]5[/sup] And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

    “ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
    Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
    [sup]6[/sup] For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
    And scourges every son whom He receives.”[sup][a][/sup]
    Well, God loves all, and wishes all to be saved. As long as we live, and there is still hope for us, if we have some love for him, he will exhort us to run, and correct us like children.

    I don't get what you're trying to say with these verses :) Could you explain?
     
  13. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly New Member

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    Couple of things here Prentise.
    What scriptures do you base the premise that we have hope only "as long as we live" and "as long as we have breath"?
    Secondly, you started with "God loves all" but finished with "if we have some love for him" and it seems very contrary and conflicting to me.Do you have some scripture that supports it?
     
  14. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    Is there hope after we are dead? I don't say it's impossible. God can do what he wants and have mercy on whom he wishes. Only I think we should move forward now, and not use the mercy we have received now to somehow declare the game over. And it is said of the saints they must be faithful unto death.

    Revelation 2:10 "Be thou faithful unto death and I will give you a crown of life."

    'God loves all'
    [sup]3[/sup] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, [sup]4[/sup] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2)

    'If we have some love for him'
    [sup]3[/sup] For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. (1 John 5)

    The question is not God's love, it is ours. We are the ones being tested in this life.
     
  15. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    You threw me a loop in the first post of this thread Richard. That Matthew6:28-29 is really John 6:28-29. :)

    The situation with the religious leaders of Jesus day (and long before his time in the flesh) was that men used pride as the source of their drive to accomplish things. Paul said that about his Israelite brothers many times, even saying at Romans 10: 1-3 that they had a zeal for God. But that zeal was grown out of pride rather than faith. What do I mean by that?

    When we serve out of pride we turn the emphasis in toward ourselves and are proud of ourselves for being conscientious and accomplishing things. And we all ought to know well how easy it is for us to get caught in that trap yet believing that it is a good thing and yet believing that we are right to be that way.

    We even tell the half hearted that they need to get a little pride about the things they do. An employer in this fleshly world expects his employee to have pride in his work. Most auto mechanics will swear they are the best. We take so much pride in what we do that in many ways we take to much credit to ourselves for its accomplishment. Some of us even feign sharing a little credit with others just so that we can appear humble.

    It ought to not be difficult at all for us to understand the attitude of the Pharisees and the religious leaders of Jesus' day, for that is exactly how they were and they saw nothing wrong with it any more than we do in our employment today. Why, to try to tell them about the trap they were caught in, you would naturally be considered crazy.

    Because most all of us have experienced this pride most of us can also look back and remember a time where we know we should have listen to someone that it turned out knew a bit more than our self but we did not. We even chaulk that up to the normal process of learning, calling it learning through experience. And many will tell you that experience is the best teacher. But how can it be? Too many people get hurt learning things that way. Some do not even get a chance to try again as it takes their life (or someone elses life).

    We are fools and do not know it.

    If then experience is not the best teacher what is? Would it perhaps be faith in someone that knows more than we? That is why God gave Solomon the wisdom to write things like: Proverbs 1:7-8 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
    My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and forsake not the law of thy mother."

    Man's pride stops up man's ears. And it is precisely because the flesh with that pride is ruling in the visible churches that there is such discord and disagreement today.

    God told Noah exactly how to build the Ark and it is said of Noah: Genesis 6:22 "Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he."

    Noah knew how to quiet the voice of self pride so that he could hear and pay attention to God. Noah was a man that relied on faith rather than pride. Therefore though Noah worked hard his works were not his own works but they were the will of God. And that is what God is trying to get us to see and to do. That is what Jesus was telling those Pharisees.

    I had more to add to this but the spirit in me has told me this is sufficient for now but for saying that this is what the wise young Elihu knew when he told Job: Job 37:14 "Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God."

    May God bless you and help you to grasp what has been said here.
     
  16. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    The greatest deceiver that we face is not Satan the devil, but it is our own flesh. Our own flesh has great power over us because we pretty much automatically believe that we can trust it. And what we trust we freely listen to. Yet we know that it would be foolish to appoint two intructors with differing opinions to have control of any building work we wish to accomplish. What I speak of is exactly what Jesus was telling us when he said, Matthew 6:24 "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

    What many do not realize about the word "mammon" as it appears there, is that its definition is, "confidence, i.e. wealth". That "i.e." means "as in". Thus the main impact is the thought of conflicting confidences, which just happens to be typified here as mammon personified. Therefore we can properly extract that principle to apply it to any situation of the same nature. And that is what Jesus expects us to do. That is called, "getting the sense of it", which is required to be able to extract the deeper meaning from parables or ilustrations.

    There are other very subtle problems that come along with pride, but for the sake of this discussion I am focusing on how it has great power to distract us from actually having full trust for God's instruction of us and gets in the way of our hearing him. Yet while pride does this to us we do not see it as doing that and we can come up with what seem to ourselves to be very strong arguments supporting that it is not harming but helping. But the fact remains that pride is based in a man's trust in his own ability to do things as he critics to be good. Thus it sets us into the situation where we are trying to serve two masters, God and our own confidence.

    A vessel can be filled a penny at a time and then we know we know what has been put into it. So this is where I will stop for now.
     
  17. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    yes. Although, pride can be elusive - people often engage in destructive behavior or even pious behavior that turns out to be 'love of self' rather than 'love of God and neighbor'. I have a friend who loves to help people, but it is often to the determent of family and friends - many times he recruits others to go and help people with him and if you do not agree, he can be manipulative and derogatory towards you. Indeed, people can even give and serve for selfish reasons.
     
  18. Vengle

    Vengle New Member

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    Aspen said: "yes. Although, pride can be elusive - people often engage in destructive behavior or even pious behavior that turns out to be 'love of self' rather than 'love of God and neighbor'. I have a friend who loves to help people, but it is often to the determent of family and friends - many times he recruits others to go and help people with him and if you do not agree, he can be manipulative and derogatory towards you. Indeed, people can even give and serve for selfish reasons."

    I agree aspen. Even something done blindly as good if it is of itself good then it works good. However our theme has been the using of works in a way that is as working out our own righteousness.

    I will be cautious not to dog such good works just because they are deemed to be good by the person themselves. After-all, we have these words of Paul reminding us of what Moses said, to give us a pause: Romans 10:5 "For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them."

    The problem for such a man as you described is not that his works are bad but that by their self they are not enough to be justified. What you describe is but one thing out of many moments in this man's life. So perhaps he does many other good things also. Still, it his works will fall short. If he depends on them to justify him they will fail him. Only faith and the love born of faith can adequately keep man in tow with the spirit of God.

    Even writing to each other as we are doing here, have you ever heard a little voice in your head after you typped something out and it read so well and made so much sense to you that you could like hear the voice of the readers saying, "Yes, I see, he is right!!" like an ah ha experience?

    That is something i think most of us have from time to time. Still it is that little voice of pride in us trying to take our attention off of the one we really owe grattitude to.

    No doubt you recall Jesus saying the following: Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."

    Our attitude ought always to be "Thank God for his intelligence and wisdom." It really ought to not be, "Thank God that he gave me intelligence and wisdom."

    That is a sample of the subtlties we need to develop our awareness to avoid. It is our incorrect thinking that keeps us falling back into the trap of pride, and not our works. We in our feeble state cannot afford to take any credit to our self. Our flesh will always try to run with it.

    Jesus set that example beautifully for us.
     
  19. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    I agree. There is some good insight in your comment.
     
  20. Prentis

    Prentis New Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree that the self is the first enemy, and that our flesh is the first thing that opposes us.

    But I think we must understand that they devil is equally part of the trick. He is not so much the one who is there to make us fall individually, unless one is truly walking with God at a level where he is a threat. But the devil orchestrates the lies of this world, and he is the one who assures that from our youth we are brought up in a godless society.

    The devil is the author of those lies we so easily believe, the millions of different errors that the world offers.

    Just a thought.... :)
     
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