Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
It is divine. Don't know what else to say! God did not give us a biological treatise on the nature of a divine nature.
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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It is divine. Don't know what else to say! God did not give us a biological treatise on the nature of a divine nature.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
It sure does get an awful lot of thread creation and discussion space, doesn't it?
No, ..Apostolic...LOLAre you... myopic?
Grace and peace to you?
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
God declared Jesus to be His Son. (God is omnipresent)...
In Heaven...the Father.
On the Footstool...the Son.
Heb 1: Read closely.
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
We are clearly not going to agree. The eternal preexistence of the Son of God is fundamental. Only begotten does not refer to Mary giving birth at Bethlehem.
God birthed a “Son of God”. 1st came forth out from God, ie birth, sent to Mary’s womb.
9 months, came forth from Mary’s womb, ie delivered.. a “son of man”.
beget..past tense begotten...historically refers to the male, ie God.
John 1:
[13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Ofcourse, a study with other Scriptures.
....but when God gave His Son, He was the Son already......
The Lord Jesus was not born and then He was supposedly given, and He supposedly became the Son then.
His is God's eternal Son; the Creator God (John 1; Hebrews 1).
“The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.’”
(Luke 1:35, NASB)
(Luke 1:35, NASB)
I'm not sure if you think what you've pointed out and said here nullifies what I said, but it doesn't...
Romans 5:5 says "God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Certainly, this is the case now and since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was sent, in Jesus's name, just as Jesus said He would be in John 14. But Paul is not making a distinction between us now as compared to the Israelites of old. The Holy Spirit was also at work in people's lives before Pentecost, and Paul says nothing to say or intimate otherwise. The Holy Spirit was even at work in the act of creation in Genesis 1, as He was hovering over the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2). And the prophet Ezekiel, quoting the Father long before Christ came as saying:
"I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God." (Ezekiel 11:19-20)
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 36:26-29; emphasis mine)
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 36:26-29; emphasis mine)
I would argue, Rich, and successfully, despite what you may think, that God's whole Law always hung on the two commandments that those called by God 1.) are to love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, and mind, and 2.) love their neighbor as themselves. Surely you know that the first four commandments are about loving God, and the other six are about loving others; if you didn't, you do now.
It was the same then as it is now. The only difference is that God gave the Israelites of old a different way of outwardly expressing it because Jesus had not yet come, but everything still pointed to Christ and the Law of Christ ~ because Moses and all the prophets were very clear in this, as we see in multiple places in various words from several folks (even Jesus Himself), that all of Scripture is about Christ Jesus:"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'"
[Philip, in John 1:45]
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me."
[Jesus, in John 5:46]
"If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”
[Jesus, in Luke 16:31]
[Philip, in John 1:45]
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me."
[Jesus, in John 5:46]
"If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”
[Jesus, in Luke 16:31]
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself..." (v.27) "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” (v.44)
[Luke, in Luke 24:27; Jesus, in Luke 24:44]
[Luke, in Luke 24:27; Jesus, in Luke 24:44]
"To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass..."
[Paul, Acts 26:22]
"When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets."
[Paul, Acts 28:23]
[Paul, Acts 26:22]
"When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets."
[Paul, Acts 28:23]
To reiterate, the only real difference is that God gave the Israelites of old a different way of outwardly expressing it because Jesus had not yet come, but everything still pointed to Christ and the Law of Christ that Paul refers to in Galatians 6:2. Hebrews 1 states very clearly not that God "said different things" to our fathers, the Israelites of old, but rather through a different medium, the prophets. In these latter days, though, He has spoken to us by His Son. And Hebrews 11 states very clearly how all people have been saved from the beginning... by/through faith, which is the assurance of God by the conviction of His Spirit.
Yes, I've considered it all, and yet still consider it daily with great joy. Grace and peace to you, Rich.
If you want to stick with that, then I'm afraid that you have to accept that you don't believe Jesus nor Paul, because both said in grade school reading level that the Father is the only true God. As you correctly said, Jesus is not the Father, so he can't be God.
John 17:3,
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee (talking to his Father, verse 1)the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
God is the Father. Jesus is the son whom God sent. Trying to make them the same person is just wrong. Now, if you want, you can say God is an essence, but now you've reduced God to a thing instead of a person. Sorry, but that's about the sum of it.
1 Cor 8:6,But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
How does this not eliminate the Son from being God? He's not the Father, so he's not the one God. Again, no way around the simple assertion that Paul made. It totally agrees with what Jesus said.
I think that truing to understand Jesus and God in terms of persons, natures, essences, or whatever leads to nothing but confusion, and God is certainly not a God of confusion. Why not just accept Jesus being the son of God makes him like all sons, i.e., not their own father? That's not at all confusing.
Where do the scriptures say such a thing? The Athenasian Creed doesn't even say that. It says God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are equal in all ways. Not that I buy into the Athenasian Creed, but I was wondering where you got the idea that Jesus is God and yet NOT equal in certain ways.
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We are part of the one, catholic (universal), apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, yes.
But it is a distinct possibility that you are a bit myopic on some things...
Grace and peace to you.
I suppose I am.We are part of the one, catholic (universal), apostolic Church of Jesus Christ, yes.
But it is a distinct possibility that you are a bit myopic on some things...
Grace and peace to you.
I see mostly black and white and don't drift too far.
The contextual violence continues. One day it will be brought to a screeching halt. Come quickly, Lord Jesus.
Grace and peace to all.
I'm... not sure you understand what 'myopic' means...
But we should all try to see in full and living color, no?Grace and peace to you.
nearsighted.I'm... not sure you understand what 'myopic' means...
Grace and peace to you.
Similar:
short-sighted
nearsighted
as blind as a bat
purblind
Opposite:
farsighted
- lacking imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight
I mean that I don't like to rethink scripture like the farshighted do.
God is omnipresent. Using different names/titles gives us notice of “what part of God is doing what”.
God sent His Word to earth.
God said His Word came forth out of His mouth.
God said His Word is a “holy thing”.
We Learn a name for Gods Word...Jesus.
We Learn His Word is “truth, way, Life” of God.
God prepared a body for His word, for when it would be sent into the world.
God said while His Word was on earth, He would be a Father to Him, and “He” would be a Son to God.
Later we learn that Gods Word is also Gods “wisdom, seed, power”... and Gods “wisdom, seed, power”, He called “Christ”.
It is God introducing us to Him, bit by bit.
The knowledge thereof Makes little sense to a carnal mind.
Spiritually makes perfect sense.
I hardly said anything. I just quoted a few scriptures.I'm not sure if you think what you've pointed out and said here nullifies what I said, but it doesn't...
Romans 5:5 says "God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us." Certainly, this is the case now and since Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was sent, in Jesus's name, just as Jesus said He would be in John 14. But Paul is not making a distinction between us now as compared to the Israelites of old. The Holy Spirit was also at work in people's lives before Pentecost, and Paul says nothing to say or intimate otherwise. The Holy Spirit was even at work in the act of creation in Genesis 1, as He was hovering over the face of the waters (Genesis 1:2). And the prophet Ezekiel, quoting the Father long before Christ came as saying:
"I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God." (Ezekiel 11:19-20)
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses." (Ezekiel 36:26-29; emphasis mine)
I would argue, Rich, and successfully, despite what you may think, that God's whole Law always hung on the two commandments that those called by God 1.) are to love the Lord their God with all their heart, soul, and mind, and 2.) love their neighbor as themselves. Surely you know that the first four commandments are about loving God, and the other six are about loving others; if you didn't, you do now.
"Philip found Nathanael and said to him, 'We have found him of whom Moses in the Law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'"
[Philip, in John 1:45]
"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me."
[Jesus, in John 5:46]
"If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.”
[Jesus, in Luke 16:31]
"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself..." (v.27) "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” (v.44)
[Luke, in Luke 24:27; Jesus, in Luke 24:44]
"To this day I have had the help that comes from God, and so I stand here testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would come to pass..."
[Paul, Acts 26:22]
"When they had appointed a day for him, they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets."
[Paul, Acts 28:23]
To reiterate, the only real difference is that God gave the Israelites of old a different way of outwardly expressing it because Jesus had not yet come, but everything still pointed to Christ and the Law of Christ that Paul refers to in Galatians 6:2. Hebrews 1 states very clearly not that God "said different things" to our fathers, the Israelites of old, but rather through a different medium, the prophets. In these latter days, though, He has spoken to us by His Son. And Hebrews 11 states very clearly how all people have been saved from the beginning... by/through faith, which is the assurance of God by the conviction of His Spirit.
Yes, I've considered it all, and yet still consider it daily with great joy. Grace and peace to you, Rich.
Israel is not our father. That would be Abraham.
Rom 4:11,
And he (Abraham) received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Hebrews 1 does not talk about anybody being saved. It does say that they received a "good report" in verse 39. Verse 40 then says we have something better. When something is better than something else, the two things are decidedly different.
The Jews in the OT did not have the option of being born again, since it was not available. All they had was the law, a shadow of what was to come, i.e., justification by faith
Rom 3:28,
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Heb 10:1,
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, [and] not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
I think these are more than a different outward appearance. They are in truth a fundamental change in inner nature.
If you could only see the huge difference between Israel in the OT and the Church in the NT, the scriptures would go from a grainy black and white to a very bright technicolor. They would get even brighter if you put God and Jesus in their right places.
As you know, I'm no fan of Plato, but nobody is 100% wrong about everything (not even me despite others suggesting I am), so I think his cave analogy is appropriate here. I used to sit in the cave with you and stare at the wall, believing the trinity. Then I talked to someone who dared to go outside the cave and he told me that Jesus, not being the Father, is not the one true God. I went outside to look for myself, and discovered he was spot on right. Haven't gone back into the case ever since.
How does the context change the simple declarations that both Jesus and Paul made, saying that the Father is the only true God?
Perhaps you could address some of the remote context I mentioned a while ago that totally agree with Jesus not being God. Remember, God knew things Jesus didn't know, God is the head of Jesus, Jesus will be subjected to God, Jesus was tempted whereas God can't be tempted, Jesus grew in wisdom whereas God is wisdom. There are many other verses that would make it quite impossible for Jesus to be God, but I'll let you answer those first. In any case, the remote context certainly agrees with Jesus and Paul about the Father being the only true God.
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