The Popular False Justification and False Sanctification View Today.

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Ferris Bueller

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That’s because faith has two sides to it. One side of faith is believing and the other side of the coin of faith is the work of faith...
We can argue the definition of 'faith' vs. the definition of 'works'. But the point here is works of faith do not secure what you already have through faith in God's forgiveness all by itself.

Abraham is our example. He did not do anything to receive the righteousness that comes from God. He was circumcised as the sign of THE RIGHTEOUSNESS HE ALREADY HAD by faith. The work of circumcision is not the point. The point is he did NOTHING to receive the righteousness that is from God. Instead he believed God and received the righteousness that is from God. His work thereafter confirming the righteousness he already had by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" Romans 4:11

"21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it (his faith, not his faith + work) was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;" Romans 4:21-24
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It is a part of it. What I reject is your claim that the walking in the light part is how a person receives the righteousness that comes from God and, thus, is saved. Faith all by itself does that.

Faith starts off justifying us by a belief alone in our Initial Salvation, but faith continues as doing things like Noah building the Ark. His action to build the Ark would be the work of faith and thus a part of the faith, too. So his works (works of faith) would be a part of the faith. So his works also justified him. Faith alone would not have saved Noah if he never built the Ark.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Amen! Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8) was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5) and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed and received God's warning about the impending judgment of the earth and it also saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

No. Noah’s obedience in building the Ark WAS A PART OF HIS FAITH. It’s says so in Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 mentions how faith can be a belief and how faith can be works of faith.

It’s like you guys are trying to say that apples have no part from coming from an apple tree. That’s how dumb your argument is.
You want to separate the work of faith from faith and yet they are connected in such a way that they are a part of each other.
It’s why James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
It’s why James says that works makes faith perfect (James 2:22).
 

Bible Highlighter

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Is this in response to what I wrote?

Yes. Is the whole of Bible a part of the faith?
Are we to believe all of the Bible by faith?
Yes, or no?
If yes… then that means that even the instructions on holy living from God in the New Testament is a part of the faith.
God talking about good works in the New Testament for us to do would be a part of the faith.
But Protestantism has done a number on the minds of men and has made them to believe illogical things.
 

Bible Highlighter

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We can argue the definition of 'faith' vs. the definition of 'works'. But the point here is works of faith do not secure what you already have through faith in God's forgiveness all by itself.

Abraham is our example. He did not do anything to receive the righteousness that comes from God. He was circumcised as the sign of THE RIGHTEOUSNESS HE ALREADY HAD by faith. The work of circumcision is not the point. The point is he did NOTHING to receive the righteousness that is from God. Instead he believed God and received the righteousness that is from God. His work thereafter confirming the righteousness he already had by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" Romans 4:11

"21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it (his faith, not his faith + work) was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;" Romans 4:21-24

You are looking at one point in time when a person exercises their faith and yet you are ignoring another point in time of how that faith continues in their life (like involving doing acts of faith or works of faith). Faith starts off as a belief alone but it does not remain that way. Faith continues and it manifests itself as the work of faith after one is saved by God’s grace through faith. The work of faith also justifies because it is ALSO a part of the faith that is a part of your continued faith or continued salvation. Hebrews 11 told you this. By faith (a belief) we understand that the worlds were framed by the Word of God (Hebrews 11:3). But we also see that by faith Noah built the Ark (Hebrews 11:7). In fact, Noah moved with fear. But in your Protestant religion, there really is no fear. But Noah feared because the world was going to perish by a global flood and he did not want to face that kind of fate for himself and his family.
 

Charlie24

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Have you stopped sinning Charlie? If not, then what sins are you justifying under God’s grace as a license for immorality? (Jude 1:4).
Please tell us. Also, do you not know that Titus 2:11-12 says that God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world? Seeing that you are trying to convince believers to sin instead of trying to obey God, this means you truly don’t believe Titus 2:11-12 (including many other verses).

When I was saved I came to realize that my sins nailed Christ on that Cross. I began to develop a hatred for sin.

All Christians will hate sin when they learn the price God paid because of it.

We don't want to sin, but when we do being that we are fallen man, we have remorse and ask for forgiveness.

You make it sound as though we have no care that we sin, that is one of your many misconceptions. But you believe what you believe and no one can show you any different.
 

Robert Gwin

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I think you're exaggerating the import of the topic. Nobody will be standing on the left of Christ at the judgment because they thought one way or another about what the essence of hell fire is.

Anyone who slanders God is just about guaranteed of being judged wicked don't you think Ferris?
 

Robert Gwin

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No one disagrees with this.
What works do not do is solicit the righteousness that comes from God that one receives entirely by faith in the forgiveness of God. That is where there is contention about works.

You either believe faith without works is dead or you don't Ferris. You work, I work, every Christian works because we have accepted the assignment, and vowed to serve God for an eternity hopefully.
 

mailmandan

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We can argue the definition of 'faith' vs. the definition of 'works'. But the point here is works of faith do not secure what you already have through faith in God's forgiveness all by itself.

Abraham is our example. He did not do anything to receive the righteousness that comes from God. He was circumcised as the sign of THE RIGHTEOUSNESS HE ALREADY HAD by faith. The work of circumcision is not the point. The point is he did NOTHING to receive the righteousness that is from God. Instead he believed God and received the righteousness that is from God. His work thereafter confirming the righteousness he already had by faith:

"11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:" Romans 4:11

"21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22And therefore it (his faith, not his faith + work) was imputed to him for righteousness. 23Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;" Romans 4:21-24
Amen and well said! Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28) Those who teach salvation by faith and works cannot seem to grasp this and there is a reason for that. To say that we are saved by faith + works of faith (works produced out of faith) culminates in 'works righteousness' and is a perversion of the gospel.

Abraham's work of offering up Isaac did not result in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith, which is the 'sense' in which Abraham was 'justified by works' in James 2:21. He was shown to be righteous.

Hebrews 11:1 - Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. In Hebrews 11, notice in all of these occurrences that is was "by" or "out of" faith, not faith is in essence, these acts of obedience/works. Their faith was genuine and it was shown by their actions (works) so all of these works accomplished in Hebrews 11 were done "by" or "out of" faith, but those works are not the essence of faith, only the evidence (fruit) of faith. That is absolutely critical to understand! We are saved through faith at it's origin and not at some time later, based on the merit of works. Faith is the root of salvation and works which follow are the fruit. Works-salvationists cannot grasp this.

Works-salvationists typically "add" works to the definition of faith and try to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith. For example, Roman Catholics teach that we are saved through faith "infused" with works, then those works become meritorious for receiving eternal life. I was once in a discussion with a Roman Catholic who made made this statement to me below:

We are saved by faith - as long as you properly define "faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments, doing the will of the Father etc..

Now initially, this Roman Catholic was in denial when I told him that the Roman Catholic church teaches salvation by works, but as you can see from his statement above, his argument about not teaching salvation by works out of one side of his mouth, then out of the other side of his mouth saying that faith is defined as and INCLUDES these works above is just sugar coated double talk and equates to salvation through faith (his version of faith) + works.

Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, if you asked me what faith "is" I basically would have said that faith "is" believing and faith "is" baptism and faith "is' multiple acts of obedience and faith "is" works. The natural man cannot understand.

In an effort to "get around" the truth that we are saved through faith in Christ alone and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8-9) Roman Catholics will say we are saved by "these" works (good works/works of faith etc..) and just not "those" works (works of the law) but that argument is bogus. We are not saved by works in general. (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)
 
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Ferris Bueller

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You either believe faith without works is dead or you don't Ferris. You work, I work, every Christian works because we have accepted the assignment, and vowed to serve God for an eternity hopefully.
Faith without works is dead. That's what the Bible plainly says. What various Christian denominations get wrong is they believe the works that accompany faith are what makes a person pass from death to life. They think that's what converts them and makes them born again. Not knowing that faith in God's forgiveness, all by itself, does that before you ever lift a finger to walk in the righteousness you have received by faith all by itself.
 

Ferris Bueller

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Anyone who slanders God is just about guaranteed of being judged wicked don't you think Ferris?
No, I don't think that. Because of this:

"32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven" Matthew 12:32

I don't think, for example, that people who don't believe Christ is God are automatically condemned for not believing that.
 

Ferris Bueller

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It will if you lie about God Ferris. People only think they are saved, yet the Bible teaches salvation is yet future. Perhaps you are unaware of what Salvation is sir.
I know that one must be converted to be saved. And I know conversion occurs the moment one receives God's forgiveness through Christ, not after an appropriate amount of righteous works are completed.
 

Bible Highlighter

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No, we're saying the apples on an apple tree play no role in making it an apple tree.
It shows it to be an apple tree already.

That’s what dumb. Apples and the apple tree are connected. If apples come from an apple tree, the apples do show that the tree is an apple tree and not another kind of tree.

The apple doesn't cause the tree to be an apple tree.

Nowhere did I say that the apple (fruit) causes the tree to be (or turn into) an apple tree. I am saying that the apple (fruit) shows that it is an apple tree. Just as works of faith show one’s faith. They are connected, and not separate as you would like to make them. You say works is not faith. James says he will show you his faith by his works. Just as I can show you an apple tree by the type of fruit it makes (i.e. apples). You cannot say that the fruit (applies) of an apple tree is not a part of the tree; Anymore than you can say that works is not a part of the faith. James says that works makes one’s faith perfect in James 2:22. This is not possible unless they had a symbiotic relationship in that they were connected together. You want to disconnect them because you don’t want to see works of faith as a part of the faith.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Is this in response to what I wrote?

Yes. Do you believe that the whole Bible should be taken by faith?
Did not God give us holy instructions to obey Him in the New Testament?
Are not God’s holy instructions a part of the faith?
Yes, or no?