Equal to Christ!

[theefaith]

I understand that’s what trinitarianism teaches. We can locate the source of the teaching in Church history. It comes to us from the Catholic Church. To believe it is to believe what the Catholic Church teaches.

Do you agree or disagree with that?
(Yes the true church founded by Christ on Peter and the Apostles and their successors)


Council of Chalcedon. The doctrine of the hypostatic union.



You told me recently that you use two translations for apologetics - KJV and Wycliffe, if I’m remembering correctly.

“And David said to all the congregation, Now bless the LORD your God. And all the congregation blessed the LORD God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the LORD, and the king.”

(1 Chronicles 29:20, KJV)

The people are worshipping God and the king.

“Soothly David commanded to all the church, that is, (to) all the people gathered together, Bless ye the Lord our God. And all the church, that is, the people, blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and they bowed themselves, and worshipped God, and [then] afterward the king. (And David commanded to all the congregation, Bless ye the Lord your God. And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and they bowed themselves, and worshipped God, and then the king.)”


(1 Chronicles 29:20, WYC)

The people are worshipping God and the king.

WYC uses the word “church”. Do you believe this is the Roman Catholic Church? Do you believe the people are Roman Catholics? Do you believe the people are worshipping the Trinity and the king?

(It don’t say what king, God is also the eternal king)

Are you familiar with the concept of ideal preexistence, also known as notional preexistence?

(No)

I commented on this verse recently in another thread. I called upon my favorite Catholic scholar, Raymond E. Brown. In his book, Jesus God And Man, he has a section titled “II. TEXTS WHERE THE USE OF ‘GOD’ FOR JESUS IS DUBIOUS”. There are two subsections under this heading. The first subsection is titled “A. Passages with textual variants” and the second subsection is titled “B. Passages where obscurity arises from syntax”. Titus 2:13 is discussed in the second subsection. After discussing the syntax options, Brown concludes “It is unfortunate that that no certainty can be reached here …” (p. 18).

I would appeal to the syntax option which fits with Jewish monotheism, which seems sound to me in light of the fact (which you’ve disputed) that Jesus is a Jew (not a Roman Catholic, as you believe him to be) but you wouldn’t find it persuasive. If you’re on top of your game you would point out to me (or remind me) that there are syntax issues with the passage, and therefore I couldn’t claim with certainty that the option I think is best settles the matter.



Staying with Brown, there is a section in his book titled “TEXTS WHERE JESUS IS CLEARLY CALLED GOD”. Hebrews 1:8 is discussed in this section. He points out that the author of Hebrews is quoting Psalm 45:6-7. I agree with his conclusion that Jesus is clearly called elohim (Heb.) / theos (Gk.) / “God”.



Still staying with Brown, 2 Peter 1:1 falls under the same subheading in his book as Titus 2:13. See my comments above on Titus 2:13 concerning available options.

That aside, God has given Jesus all power and authority (28:18). He possesses, and uses, that divine power, which he has been given to him by his Father, for the purpose Peter describes in the passage.

(Given to his human nature, he already has all authority in his divine nature)

 

[theefaith]

Please send them in one part at a time it’s a large and difficult subject

 

[theefaith]

I like this one

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Paul was a servant of Jesus Christ who is God! Acts 9:16

 

[theefaith]

And this

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Acts 9:13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

thy saints? Saint of Jesus Christ the most high God!

 

[theefaith]

His angels? Only God has angels!

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[theefaith]

An oldie but a goodie!

Lk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jn 1:30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John brought them to Jesus

Jesus is the Lord their God!

 

[theefaith]

Lk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

Jesus visited and redeemed the people, Jesus is the horn of salvation!

Jesus is eternal God!

 

[Matthias]

“What is a heretic? The Greek word from which the English terms ‘heresy’ and ‘heretic’ are derived simply means an ‘act of choice’ or an ‘attachment.’ For a time, hairesis merely meant ‘party’ or ‘sect’ (from the Latin verb ‘to cut’) and did not imply any disparagement.”

(Harold O.J. Brown, Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church, p.1)

This is how I use the term “heretic”.

Dr. Brown continues,

“At an early date in the history of Christianity heresy became almost the worst offense in which a Christian could become involved; in the Middle Ages, it became a capital crime.”

(Ibid.)

Christianity gone wrong, I suggest.

 

[theefaith]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

to worship a man would be blasphemy and they would be condemned by God but they received a blessing and warning to avoid Herod!

Matt 1:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

 

[Matthias]

(Given to his human nature, he already has all authority in his divine nature)

The trinitarian perspective, which, again, can be traced in Church history to post-biblical Council, not to scripture.

It is so only on the authority of the Catholic Church.

 

[Matthias]

I like this one

Acts 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

Paul was a servant of Jesus Christ who is God! Acts 9:16

Jesus, too, is a servant of the most high God; the suffering servant whom Isaiah prophesied about.

 

[theefaith]

Thank you. I made the connection from what I know about you but it was important for me to hear you say it.

Who is God to you? It’s a great question.

Who is God to theefaith? The Trinity.

Who is God to Matthias? The Father.

Who is God to Jesus?

its the most interesting question and the debate has been happening forever!

I don’t see a you as being incorrect only the the fullness of faith and divine revelation was not complete with the Jews or mosaic covenant!

what do you think of the statement of Jesus in Matt 23:1-2 the successors of Moses must be obeyed?

 

[theefaith]

Again, thank you.

I’ve used a quote from Father Fortman several time. He points out that the apostles weren’t trinitarians. You seem to be saying, against Fortman, that they were.

I love sausage (btw do you follow kosher laws and Saturday sabbath too?) but I care to see it made!

if the apostles did not believe in the trinity, then the trinity is heresy! Acts 2:42 Jude 1:3

If Christ did not teach the trinity to the apostles (Matt 28:19) then it is not Christian doctrine and dogma!

 

[theefaith]

Christ is my high priest and apostle (Hebrews 3:1).

And Peter and the apostles are his successors!

 

[Matthias]

I love sausage (btw do you follow kosher laws and Saturday sabbath too?) but I care to see it made!

No. I’m under the new covenant.

I like seeing Church history that was made. When, where, why, how and by whom the doctrine of the Trinity was made is very well-documented.

if the apostles did not believe in the trinity, then the trinity is heresy! Acts 2:42 Jude 1:3

That’s right. See again the quote from Father Fortman.

The strength of Catholic scholarship, that which imo makes it superior to Protestant scholarship, is that it allows persons living in biblical times to be what they are: non-trinitarians.

If Christ did not teach the trinity to the apostles (Matt 28:19) then it is not Christian doctrine and dogma!

That’s right.

Matthew 28:19 doesn’t say God is the Trinity, and Jesus doesn’t teach the Trinity to the apostles.

I know you believe Jesus is a Roman Catholic, but I’m not persuaded. I am persuaded by scholars who, like N.T. Wright, recognize and acknowledge that Jesus is a Jewish monotheist.

 

[theefaith]

Executing justice doesn’t always involve killing.



If I’m ever put on trail for treason against the state, and if I’m found guilty, then I might very well be put to death by the state. I would, however, also point out that while death is a possible sentence for treason, it’s not the only possible sentence.

“Penalty: Under U.S. Code Title 18, the penalty is death, or not less than five years imprisonment (with a minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death.”

Treason laws in the United States - Wikipedia

I’m a citizen of the United States. If the United States government begins executing people for their faith, or even imprisons them and fines them for their faith, then the government is out of control.



Let’s go with your argument here. Your God is the Trinity. My God isn’t. It seems to me that you’re saying that the U.S. government either could or should put me on trial for heresy, find me guilty and sentence me to death for not being of the trinitarian faith. At the present time, I could easily defend myself by simply appealing to the U.S. Constitution. The day may come when I can’t. In the meantime, I’ve got nothing to worry about in regard to the matter.

Would you and / or the RCC be in favor of that happening to me?

not in the secular pluralistic Freemason USA but in a Christian kingdom it would very different

there are those who are unjustly persecuted for faith as in Mexico in the 20’s and Spain in the 30’s

the fake news press calls these civil wars but they were persecutions by Freemasons and communists

 

[Matthias]

its the most interesting question and the debate has been happening forever!

It will continue to happen as long as there are people who disagree on the answer to the question. A day is coming when everyone will know the answer to the question.

Trinitarianism offers an answer. So do other theologies.

I don’t know if you read or remember my Sunday School joke comment but the answer is Jesus. He has the correct answer to the question.

I don’t see a you as being incorrect …

I’m either correct or incorrect. The Athanasian creed doesn’t give partial credit.

… only the the fullness of faith and divine revelation was not complete with the Jews or mosaic covenant!

Wouldn’t that rule out then even the suggestion that Jews living in those days and under the mosaic covenant weren’t trinitarian?

Moses the trinitarian? Moses the Roman Catholic? I don’t think so. Catholic scholarship is better than that.

what do you think of the statement of Jesus in Matt 23:1-2 the successors of Moses must be obeyed?

Jesus said that the scribes and the Pharisees put themselves on the seat of Moses.

 

[Matthias]

And Peter and the apostles are his successors!

Is Jesus Christ a pope? No. Do you agree or disagree with that? (I assume you agree. My Catholic relatives (my wife’s side of the family) identify Peter as the first pope.)

Is the pope considered an apostle by Roman Catholics? Yes.

When a pope dies, there is a process in-place to identify his successor. The deceased pope / apostle is succeeded by another pope / apostle. A dead pope / apostle is succeeded by a living a living pope / apostle.

Jesus Christ was alive. Jesus Christ was dead. Jesus Christ was made alive again via resurrection from the dead.

I don’t see the apostles as successors of Jesus Christ.

I also don’t see Peter as a pope. I understand that you do.

 

[Matthias]

not in the secular pluralistic Freemason USA but in a Christian kingdom it would very different

A Christian kingdom is one which is subject to the Roman Catholic Church?

there are those who are unjustly persecuted for faith as in Mexico in the 20’s and Spain in the 30’s

the fake news press calls these civil wars but they were persecutions by Freemasons and communists

 

[Matthias]

Jesus is worshipped!
Only God may be worshipped!

I quoted from the translations which you said you use for apologetics. David and God were worshipped. Why was David worshipped?

Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Yes. Jesus was born a king.

Jesus of Nazareth is, as was placarded, the king of the Jews.

to worship a man would be blasphemy and they would be condemned by God but they received a blessing and warning to avoid Herod!

Jesus of Nazareth is a man. If I were to ask you to provide documentation from scripture I’m certain that you would be able to do so. Unless you tell me otherwise, I’ll take it that it’s something we agree on.

Matt 1:12 And being warned of God in a dream that they should not return to Herod, they departed into their own country another way.

Yes. Herod was seeking to kill the child. Neither Herod nor the Romans were keen on someone being a rival king.

Who, again, is God? The Trinity warned them in a dream?

Who is God? The Father warned them in a dream.