National Covenant

[Randy Kluth]

Okay how about Jesus own words

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Jesus clearly states above that there is only one people in His kingdom made up of both Jew and gentile thus true Israel

To be honest, I'm not really sure what Jesus meant here. If he meant by "sheep pen" the nation Israel, then he would be saying that there will be other nations of faith. But if he meant by "sheep pen" the small group of disciples who followed him around at that time, then he meant that there were other groups in Israel that would follow him, and not have to embrace the apostles in some kind of super-catholic organization within the nation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hey we’ve discussed this before LOL.

You are always a gentleman to debate with Randy

I have the highest regard for you brother. Our brotherhood is based on our spiritual unity in Christ. It is an unbreakable bond. The emotional aspect of disagreement with true brothers doesn't phase me. We're each trying to do the best we can to live up to our calling. If on some peripheral issues we separate, God Himself can fix this in His own time. God bless! :)

 

[Marty fox]

To be honest, I'm not really sure what Jesus meant here. If he meant by "sheep pen" the nation Israel, then he would be saying that there will be other nations of faith. But if he meant by "sheep pen" the small group of disciples who followed him around at that time, then he meant that there were other groups in Israel that would follow him, and not have to embrace the apostles in some kind of super-catholic organization within the nation.

The sheep pen is the church


The Good Shepherd and His Sheep
10 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”

19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided. 20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad.Why listen to him?”

21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

 

[Marty fox]

I have the highest regard for you brother. Our brotherhood is based on our spiritual unity in Christ. It is an unbreakable bond. The emotional aspect of disagreement with true brothers doesn't phase me. We're each trying to do the best we can to live up to our calling. If on some peripheral issues we separate, God Himself can fix this in His own time. God bless! :)

Thanks Randy myself and my dad fell the same way

 

[Randy Kluth]

Paul never used the expression "true Israel". He used "all Israel" and "of Israel".

The distinction between the two is spiritual, and it is clear and plain.

I would differ with you. Here Paul refers to "true Israel" in so many words (not the exact words "true Israel"...

Rom 9.6 For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children.

Gal 4. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy myself and my dad fell the same way

Your Dad has a tremendous heart for "souls!" I enjoy your forum because your heart is in the right place. My ministry has always been uncredentialled and designed to impact fellow believers, although I do plant a lot of seeds of faith in unbelievers. So sometimes my comments seem out of line with your father's wish to remain thoroughly evangelical. But I like how none of you are afraid of addressing all Scriptural elements. We definitely have that in common. I've adopted you as my spiritual brother! :)

 

[covenantee]

I would differ with you. Here Paul refers to "true Israel" in so many words (not the exact words "true Israel"...

Rom 9.6 For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children.

Gal 4. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Why confuse the issue, when Paul uses the exact words "all Israel" and "of Israel"?

Romans 9:6 KJV
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why confuse the issue, when Paul uses the exact words "all Israel" and "of Israel"?

Romans 9:6 KJV
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Translating words into other words for sake of clarity is done all the time. And it is done to clarify--not to confuse. That's why Scripture is translated into different languages, to convey the meaning, and not the exact same words, which would be foreign to us! ;)

 

[covenantee]

Translating words into other words for sake of clarity is done all the time. And it is done to clarify--not to confuse. That's why Scripture is translated into different languages, to convey the meaning, and not the exact same words, which would be foreign to us! ;)

I've enumerated the differences between the two expressions in post 132.

Tell me what you find confusing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I've enumerated the differences between the two expressions in post 132.

Tell me what you find confusing.

You said:
1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

You are confusing the idea of "two Israel's" with only one Israel being mentioned. Within the one Israel there are Jews who are not true/faithful to their national calling. Within the same Israel there are Jews who have embraced Christ and live true to their national calling, even though their nation has yet to be restored.

This is "one Israel," and not "two Israels." You are distinguishing between two kinds of Jews, one group being faithful and the other group being unfaithful. Not two nations, but only one nation with two different groups within it. It isn't two nations, but only one nation and one calling, with those not living up to that calling not destined to be part of that nation in the end. They will be cut off.

Israel, in the end, is a nation of promise containing children of promise. Though they may not all be living up to this calling now, in the end all the children of promise will be true and faithful, and the nation will rely upon a solid majority of faithful Jews to comprise their nation.

The nation, of course, contains unfaithful children, some never choosing to repent and return to their calling. These are not children of promise, and they will be cut off.

 

[covenantee]

You are confusing the idea of "two Israel's" with only one Israel being mentioned. Within the one Israel there are Jews who are not true/faithful to their national calling. Within the same Israel there are Jews who have embraced Christ and live true to their national calling, even though their nation has yet to be restored.

"All Israel" and "of Israel" and their definitions appear explicitly in Romans 9:6-8.

Using specific words which appear in Romans 9:6-8, define your expression "national calling" (which appears nowhere in Scripture).

 

[Keraz]

True believers are the Israel of God:

Many ask, Who are God's chosen people in the earth today? Who are His elect? Are they of the natural seed of the children of Israel? Are they the "Jews" according to their ethnic lineage? Or are God's chosen people now the Christian believers of Jesus Christ?

It is commonly believed that the church must be raptured into heaven so that God can renew His separate program with the natural Jew. But is this truth? Is He going to redeem them in their present state, then remarry them?

Will the O.T. Law: the Mosaic Covenant which was only temporary, Hebrews 7:12 & 8:l3, be able to somehow in the future, disannul the Abrahamic covenant, of which the church is now the only partaker through the Seed of Abraham: Jesus Christ?

It has been well said, that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The whole Bible teaches only ONE acceptable seed, ONE family, ONE all-encompassing covenant, only ONE Israelite people as the true Covenant "children of the living God." Romans 9:26, Eph. 4:4-6

The New Covenant promised seed has been sown and is risen to replace the Old Covenant chosen seed and its unfruitful, ineffective, but once necessary life has passed out of God's plan, just as surely as have works of the Old Testament Law.

Ancient Israel, is a type of the "first man Adam, the old man": the natural body. Whereas the new Israel of Christianity is of the "last Adam, the new creation", a spiritual body.

The firstborn was Jacob, typifying Israel of the flesh- Ex.4:22; Hos.11:1. The second born: Jesus, was of the Spirit, 1 Cor.12:12-14. In Genesis 25:23 we also see two nations, a natural ethnic Israel and a spiritual true; Israel of God.

Israel of old was chosen as the firstfruits nation of the fallen Adamic seed to receive and carry the revelation of the creative, redemptive, promises of God Almighty. Isaiah 43:10; Romans 3:2 It was revealed to them long ago: I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:26

God later divorced ethnic Israel on the grounds of whoring after idols. Jer. 3:1-11 and will marry another woman: the true Christian believers. Matt. 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5
The faithful and obedient children in the true "Israel of God" are being prepared and made ready, Revelation 19:7…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
In perfect holy union, the bride, the Lamb's wife, shall be called "the holy people, the redeemed of the Lord”. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10


False teaching is that God's chosen are still the natural Jew and that everything for us as a Christian is in heaven; that Jesus has to hurry up and rapture us out of the earth so that He can renew His program and make another covenant with the chosen Jewish nation. But, the truth of Bible teaching is that Christian believers are His only chosen and that only through Abrahams Seed, the true Christian Church, shall all the families of the earth he blessed, then we had better stop and re-evaluate this issue. The serious mistake for far too long, has been--that much of the Bible's truth concerning Israel is part of another Covenant and for another day or another people.

Friends, that is actually "another gospel." Galatians 1:8-9
Ref; Ross McKay

 

[Randy Kluth]

"All Israel" and "of Israel" and their definitions appear explicitly in Romans 9:6-8.

Using specific words which appear in Romans 9:6-8, define your expression "national calling" (which appears nowhere in Scripture).

None of your English words appear in Scripture either! So what? Are you saying that Israel did not have a national calling because the words "national calling" isn't in Scripture?

That's truly a poor argument. Israel certainly had a national calling. God promised Abraham a nation consisting of his own descendants, planted as a nation in the land of Canaan. That is the definition of a "national calling," which justifies my use of the term.

 

[covenantee]

None of your English words appear in Scripture either! So what? Are you saying that Israel did not have a national calling because the words "national calling" isn't in Scripture?

That's truly a poor argument. Israel certainly had a national calling. God promised Abraham a nation consisting of his own descendants, planted as a nation in the land of Canaan. That is the definition of a "national calling," which justifies my use of the term.

That is your definition of a "national calling".

You justify your use of your term.

Scripture does not.

Historic post-apostolic Christian orthodoxy does not.

No one does other than yourself and the modernist dispensational community.

Are they a basis for sound doctrine?

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is your definition of a "national calling".

You justify your use of your term.

Scripture does not.

Historic post-apostolic Christian orthodoxy does not.

No one does other than yourself and the modernist dispensational community.

Are they a basis for sound doctrine?

It's not theological to me. It's grammar and common sense. If a rose is a rose, it still is by any other name, assuming you're talking about the same thing. A "national calling" is God calling a nation to live in the ways of Abraham's faith.

Is that a matter of biblical understanding? It's both biblical and common sense understanding of the language. It's certainly not trying to match exact words and technical phrases. It's just understanding what is meant and then communicating that very thing to others in words that they understand.

It is entirely biblical to say that Israel had a national calling. If you don't agree, okay. You're free to believe what you think is right.

By the way, I'm not a Dispensationalist--not in any significant sense except that I agree with some aspects of their belief system. I'm a futurist, like they are. And I also believe in Israel's full national restoration at the coming of Christ, just like they do.

Other than that, I disagree with Darby's Dispensationalist system, which seems to separate God's plan with Israel from His plan with other nations. Israel may be ahead in God's dealings with them as a nation. But the system of Grace that applies today applies equally with Israel as it does with other nations. That and I don't agree with a Pretrib Rapture doctrine.

 

[covenantee]

It's not theological to me. It's grammar and common sense. If a rose is a rose, it still is by any other name, assuming you're talking about the same thing. A "national calling" is God calling a nation to live in the ways of Abraham's faith.

Is that a matter of biblical understanding? It's both biblical and common sense understanding of the language. It's certainly not trying to match exact words and technical phrases. It's just understanding what is meant and then communicating that very thing to others in words that they understand.

It is entirely biblical to say that Israel had a national calling. If you don't agree, okay. You're free to believe what you think is right.

By the way, I'm not a Dispensationalist--not in any significant sense except that I agree with some aspects of their belief system. I'm a futurist, like they are. And I also believe in Israel's full national restoration at the coming of Christ, just like they do.

Other than that, I disagree with Darby's Dispensationalist system, which seems to separate God's plan with Israel from His plan with other nations. Israel may be ahead in God's dealings with them as a nation. But the system of Grace that applies today applies equally with Israel as it does with other nations. That and I don't agree with a Pretrib Rapture doctrine.

Time to disagree again.:)

If Israel has a national calling, then according to your definition of "national calling", every nation has a national calling.

Acts 10
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 17
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

 

[Randy Kluth]

Time to disagree again.:)

If Israel has a national calling, then according to your definition of "national calling", every nation has a national calling.

Every nation, in some respects, does have a national calling. After all, God formed them into nations.

Israel, however, had a unique calling from God to be a nation of faith. Though God may have wanted, from the beginning, all nations to be based on faith in His laws, history has proven that God's calling out to nations has been a progressive project. The 1st national calling to faith began with Israel.

 

[covenantee]

Every nation, in some respects, does have a national calling. After all, God formed them into nations.

Israel, however, had a unique calling from God to be a nation of faith. Though God may have wanted, from the beginning, all nations to be based on faith in His laws, history has proven that God's calling out to nations has been a progressive project. The 1st national calling to faith began with Israel.

Yes, Israel was the first.

Today, the "national calling" out from darkness (1 Peter 2:9) of every individual who fears God and works righteousness, in every nation including Israel (Acts 10:34-35), is accomplished by God through His chosen people and vehicle, His holy nation (1 Peter 2:9).

His Church.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes, Israel was the first.

Today, the "national calling" out from darkness (1 Peter 2:9) of every individual who fears God and works righteousness, in every nation including Israel (Acts 10:34-35), is accomplished by God through His chosen people and vehicle, His holy nation (1 Peter 2:9).

His Church.

I understand that this is based on your definition of "Israel" as meaning the "Church." Sorry, doesn't wash with me, though.

Israel, to me, is *not* the Church. Those who are Christians among the Jews are only a small part of the international Church.

Israel, as a nation, has yet to return to "godly" status by becoming a Christian nation. But I understand you reject the idea that nations can be truly Christian?

 

[Keraz]

Jeremiah 12:1-13 Lord, I plead my case before You, even though I know that You are right. Why do the unrighteous prosper? They grow and bear fruit, Your precepts are ever on their lips, yet far from their hearts. You know me, Lord, You see me, test my devotion to You and judge those who are unfaithful, I ask.

How long must the ungodly peoples desecrate Your Land? They say; “God does not see what we do”. Your righteous people cannot compete with those who despise them. Even so called friends turn against us: they are untrustworthy.

I have abandoned Israel and given My beloved people into the power of their enemies. They broke our covenant, so I turned My face from them.

The leaders of Israel have made My pleasant Land a desolation, to My sorrow. Evil peoples have taken over the Land from end to end, there is no peace for anyone. Whatever these people do, their harvest is a disappointment because of the Lord’s anger.

Jeremiah 12:14-17 These are the Words of the Lord about all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the land which I allotted to My people, Israel, as their holding: I shall uproot them. Also, I shall uproot Judah from among them, but after I have uprooted them, I shall have pity on them and bring them back to the Land. IF they will learn the ways of My people, THEN Judah can establish families among My people. But any nation that will not listen, I will destroy.
Reference; R.E.Binle Some verses abridged.


Lord, bring on Your judgement….. Many people profess to follow You, but true Christianity is far from their hearts. Isaiah 1:18-20, Romans 10:9-10, Isaiah 48:1-2.

Your true Christian peoples are persecuted and oppressed… 1 John 3:13-14, 1 Peter 1:6

Test my devotion to You…. Everyone will face trials and testing. Luke 21:35, 1 Peter 4:12 If we stand firm, the Lord promises protection. Psalms 23:4, Isaiah 41:13, Isaiah 43:2

The ancient Israelites broke the Covenant and so were exiled out of the holy Land and dispersed. Jeremiah 7:15 Jeremiah 2:7, Ezekiel 36:16-19, Amos 9:9


The atheistic, apostate and false religion followers…. who mostly inhabit the entire area of the holy Land at present, are an anathema to God. There can be no peace or prosperity like this. This is our situation today. Psalms 74:20, Ezekiel 36:3-7.

All the evil neighbours will be removed from all of the holy Land. Judah, too will be uprooted. Obadiah 1:12-16, Amos 2:4-6, Ezekiel 21:4

The condition for any Jews to come back again, is that they acknowledge the Messiah Jesus and follow the way of Christianity. Isaiah 26:8-10, Jeremiah 13:11, 1 John 2:22-23, Zephaniah 1:12

Any people group that refuses to listen will be destroyed….. Isaiah 1:27-28, Isaiah 66:15-17, Hebrews 10:26-27, Isaiah 66:24 & 15-17

The Land of Israel is the heritage of the Lord’s faithful Christian believers, now the righteous Israelites of God. Galatians 6:16 They will gather and settle there, Psalms 107:1-3, after the Lord clears and cleanses the Land, as He says He will in verse 14. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Isaiah 35:1-10, Revelation 6:12-17