Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son?
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Crying about the scripture does not negate the truth of the scripture.
I am not crying about the Scripture because the Scripture does not support Jesus being God himself at all... anything you should try to give as proof must be in such a manner that doe not make God out to be a liar....
user, do you really think that the word, 'God' as you bolded in this verse was in the text before the 16th century at least. It was deliberately altered user to your way of thinking, only in a few translations and you had to pick one of them. This is what you guys had to do in order to gain some type of foothold into scripture to make you mysterious doctrine somehow genuine.
Here's a better text of it:
(1Ti 3:16) Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory. (ESV)
I will give you a decent commentary I compiled over a few years just on this particular verse. I want you to copy it all and keep it so next time you feel the urge to pull out a Trinity no-gotcha verse in the face of a non-trinitarian you might think about it more seriously and twice.
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The word ‘God’ was added into this verse deliberately in a few translations to say that God was Jesus who was revealed in the flesh. The KJV lead the way.
Additionally, the passage does not read ‘in the flesh. It says, ‘in flesh’ or as a human being. Some translation read “in a body.”
The word ‘eusebias’ translated as ‘godliness’ is the best translation into English, although still an incomplete thought in its translation.
Christ is that fleshly manifestation of His (God’s) mystery.
The oldest manuscripts do not have the word ‘God’ or in Greek, ‘theos’ in this verse. Fortunately, modern translators have completed omitted this most probable translators’ error.
Instead of God, they used the word ‘He,’ ‘Who’ or ‘Which’ instead.
NIV 1984 edition - “HE appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit...”
NASB 1995 edition - “HE WHO was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated in the Spirit...”
RSV - “HE was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit...”
ESV 2001 - “HE (R10) was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit...” Footnote 10 - Greek Who; some manuscripts God; others Which.
Holman Standard 2003 - “HE was manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit”
ISV (International Standard Version) - “In flesh was HE revealed to sight, Kept righteous by the Spirit's might”
Catholic Douay-Rheims 1582 - “And evidently great is the mystery of godliness WHICH was manifested in the flesh, was justified in the spirit, appeared unto angels,”
Catholic Douay 1950 - "great is the mystery of godliness: WHICH was manifested in the flesh"
St. Joseph New American Bible 1970 - “HE was manifested in the flesh, vindicated in the Spirit...”
Catholic New Jerusalem bible 1985 - “HE was made visible in the flesh, justified in the Spirit...”
Catholic Public Domain Version 2009 - "this mystery of piety, which was manifested in the flesh"
Another clear issue with using ‘God’ for the Greek word ‘euebias,’ is that if we just keep reading further into the verse, it says that God was justified in the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, and he was received into glory. This would be nonsense as Christ did all these things and not his Father. Unless one wants to use circular logic and say Jesus is God because God who is really Jesus did all these things in the verse, and not just the man and the anointed of God, is Son, Yahshua.
So, the best translated section of passage should read ‘…great is the mystery of godliness who was revealed in flesh…’ This interpretation says that the secret of Godly thoughts and plans, his word (and holiness, piety and godliness) for our salvation was revealed in a human being. His name is Jesus Christ or Yahshua, and not his Father of his (Holy) Spirit.
Paul tells us how the hidden truth of God’s word was his own kept secret until now, regarding the plan of our salvation and how he would bring this salvation to us. He revealed it though his created Son, Jesus Christ.
God’s truth and plan of salvation was revealed with his word of, and through a man called Jesus whom God himself created, as the last Adam.
Jesus was justified as the bearer of the truth and God’s holiness because he had the Spirit of God residing within him. He was no ordinary man because his human nature was spotless or sinless because the Spirit was always in him. He was born in God’s Spirit. God was always with him. The man was not God, although what was in him. it was his Father’s Spirit.
Jesus was seen by the angels and people heard him preach the great news about salvation to the nations. People believed in Jesus as the Son of God and his Father’s mission on earth. Jesus triumphed culminating by his Father raising him from death, into immortality. (Reference John 17)
Similarly, John 1:14 tells us that the word (messages and the voice of purpose) of God became part of performance of a human being, of the flesh (human body with (sinless) human nature). This Son of Man sacrificed himself for us without asking anything of us in return (grace) except, for us to believe in him and his Father who sent him. He represented his Father, and he was sent to complete the Father’s plan and mission of salvation for us. In so doing, he also carried the truth of God within him. We all saw this truth displayed as his glory (of holy works) as the glory only given to the one and only Son of God, Jesus Messiah.
Other references of the corruption of 1 Tim 3:16
Sourced from Acts 17:11 and the noble Bereans
First we will look at a screenshot of a Greek interlinear of 1 Timothy 3:16 and can verify that the word "God" is not in here, but rather "who" instead.
Next, we can look at a Greek Lexicon of 1 Timothy 3:16, which verifies the Greek interlinear.
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Attachments
Next, we can look at the Mounce reverse Greek interlinear of 1 Timothy 3:16.
View attachment 24677
Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest complete Greek new testament in existence, dating back to the 4th century.
View attachment 24678
1 tim 3:16 in the Lamsa bible - Aramaic text - 5th century.
View attachment 24679
St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405A.D. of 1 Timothy 3:16 in Google translate.
View attachment 24680
Armenian bible – translated from the Peshitta Syriac text in 411AD of I Timothy 3:16
and openly in the godly counsel, manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, was believed in heaven and glory.
The NET BIBLE is a completely new translation of the Bible! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
View attachment 24681
Coptic text – from ancient Egyptian – 4th & 9th centuryAD of I Timothy 3:16
'^ And confessedly, great is the mystery of the godliness, *that
which was manifested in (the) flesh, was justified in the sjnrit [spirit],
was manifested unto the angels, was proclaimed among the
ncdions [nations], was believed in the tuorld [world], was taken up away
^ Lit. 'be, having become.' ^ Or 'he who.
Near the bottom of the page, look at some quoted highlights of the footnote: [My clarifications are in square brackets]
“It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός [Theos = God] reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς [hos = who] or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ and clear up the syntax at the same time. Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss [manuscripts] it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as אA C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ [which].
As TCGNT [Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament] 574 notes,
“no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός [Theos = God]; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς [hos = who] or ὅ [ho = which]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [theos].”
Definition of Patristic
pa·tris·tic [puh-tris-tik]
adjective
of or pertaining to the fathers of the Christian church or their writings.
In light of the last fact (and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [Theos = God].”), it is interesting to note that the third part of the trinity had just come into being by the commandments of men in 381A.D.
Encyclopedia Britannica on Council-of-Constantinople
“Council of Constantinople, (381), the second ecumenical council of the Christian church, summoned by the emperor Theodosius I and meeting in Constantinople. Doctrinally, it promulgated what became known to the church as the Nicene Creed; it also declared finally the Trinitarian doctrine of the equality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son.”
Thus, some of the newer texts that read theos [God] were changed many centuries after the bible was already written and contradicts all the oldest uncial manuscripts. Therefore, they are a deliberate corruption of I Timothy 3:16. The companion bible details how it happened.
Screenshot of the Companion Reference Bible; notes on I Timothy 3:16.
Notice that in the blue box, I Timothy 4:1 is highlighted.
Immediately after the Felony Forgery of I Timothy 3:16, I Timothy 4:1 speaks for itself:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."
View attachment 24682
Facsimile of the Codex Alexandrinus
“Tregelles writes, "The ink in which this has been done in A is sufficiently modern and black to declare its recent application" (An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament, London, 1854). Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh."”
1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus
Reproduced below is the text of 1 Timothy 3:16–4:3 from Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC "God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation.
However, textual critics believe that the ink in the center of the Θ and the stroke above were added by a corrector in modern times. Reasons for this belief are the color of the ink, and the fact that a "dot" has been placed in the Θ instead of a line.
Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh." In the photograph below the ΘC in 3:16 is circled. Further down, in verse 4:3, there is another ΘC circled for comparison.
View attachment 24683
His Father promised and gave Jesus immortality for the first time in his existence, after his death on the Cross. It was the grace of God his Father. This is what is meant by godliness in 1 Tim 3:16; this mysterious or incomprehensible act by God, the Father, and our Father that transformed his Son from a human to an immortal.
View attachment 24677
Codex Sinaiticus, the oldest complete Greek new testament in existence, dating back to the 4th century.
View attachment 24678
1 tim 3:16 in the Lamsa bible - Aramaic text - 5th century.
View attachment 24679
St. Jerome's Latin Vulgate 405A.D. of 1 Timothy 3:16 in Google translate.
View attachment 24680
Armenian bible – translated from the Peshitta Syriac text in 411AD of I Timothy 3:16
and openly in the godly counsel, manifested in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among the nations, was believed in heaven and glory.
The NET BIBLE is a completely new translation of the Bible! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts.
View attachment 24681
Coptic text – from ancient Egyptian – 4th & 9th centuryAD of I Timothy 3:16
'^ And confessedly, great is the mystery of the godliness, *that
which was manifested in (the) flesh, was justified in the sjnrit [spirit],
was manifested unto the angels, was proclaimed among the
ncdions [nations], was believed in the tuorld [world], was taken up away
^ Lit. 'be, having become.' ^ Or 'he who.
Near the bottom of the page, look at some quoted highlights of the footnote: [My clarifications are in square brackets]
“It appears that sometime after the 2nd century the θεός [Theos = God] reading came into existence, either via confusion with ὅς [hos = who] or as an intentional alteration to magnify Christ and clear up the syntax at the same time. Once it got in, this theologically rich reading was easily able to influence all the rest of the mss [manuscripts] it came in contact with (including mss already written, such as אA C D). That this reading did not arise until after the 2nd century is evident from the Western reading, ὅ [which].
As TCGNT [Textual Commentary of the Greek New Testament] 574 notes,
“no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century (Ψ) supports θεός [Theos = God]; all ancient versions presuppose ὅς [hos = who] or ὅ [ho = which]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [theos].”
Definition of Patristic
pa·tris·tic [puh-tris-tik]
adjective
of or pertaining to the fathers of the Christian church or their writings.
In light of the last fact (and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading θεός [Theos = God].”), it is interesting to note that the third part of the trinity had just come into being by the commandments of men in 381A.D.
Encyclopedia Britannica on Council-of-Constantinople
“Council of Constantinople, (381), the second ecumenical council of the Christian church, summoned by the emperor Theodosius I and meeting in Constantinople. Doctrinally, it promulgated what became known to the church as the Nicene Creed; it also declared finally the Trinitarian doctrine of the equality of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son.”
Thus, some of the newer texts that read theos [God] were changed many centuries after the bible was already written and contradicts all the oldest uncial manuscripts. Therefore, they are a deliberate corruption of I Timothy 3:16. The companion bible details how it happened.
Screenshot of the Companion Reference Bible; notes on I Timothy 3:16.
Notice that in the blue box, I Timothy 4:1 is highlighted.
Immediately after the Felony Forgery of I Timothy 3:16, I Timothy 4:1 speaks for itself:
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils."
View attachment 24682
Facsimile of the Codex Alexandrinus
“Tregelles writes, "The ink in which this has been done in A is sufficiently modern and black to declare its recent application" (An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament, London, 1854). Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh."”
1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus
Reproduced below is the text of 1 Timothy 3:16–4:3 from Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC "God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation.
However, textual critics believe that the ink in the center of the Θ and the stroke above were added by a corrector in modern times. Reasons for this belief are the color of the ink, and the fact that a "dot" has been placed in the Θ instead of a line.
Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC "He who was manifested in the flesh." In the photograph below the ΘC in 3:16 is circled. Further down, in verse 4:3, there is another ΘC circled for comparison.
View attachment 24683
His Father promised and gave Jesus immortality for the first time in his existence, after his death on the Cross. It was the grace of God his Father. This is what is meant by godliness in 1 Tim 3:16; this mysterious or incomprehensible act by God, the Father, and our Father that transformed his Son from a human to an immortal.
no I never said that at all lol... Not sure how you came to that...
Satan is hard at work here for sure...
All this hostility and vengeance all because none of you preach the Gospel of Christ...
.
Your rejection of the scripture does not negate the truth of the scripture.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Truth7t7
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The Triune God Is Before You Eyes Below
It Appears Your Pushing Jehovah's Witness Garb, In Denial That Jesus Christ Is "God"
1 John 5:7-8KJV
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
ChristisGod
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What is the "gospel " of Christ ?
please do tell us of this gospel of yours..............
lets see if it lines up with scripture or if you make the biblical gospel out to be a lie just like you do with Christ.
something tells me since you have a false christ you will also adhere to a false gospel- the two go hand in hand together.
hope this helps !!!
Truth7t7
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The corrupt Alexandrian text type is from the gnostic/Arian schools of Egypt, Clement, Origin, Arius
Alexandrian Text Types: Codex Vatacinus, Codex Sinaticus, Codex Alexandrius
Nothing new about the heretics in the Alexandrian schools, Origen was declared a heretic over his teachings on Jesus Christ in the 1st Council of Nicea, in denial of the triune God head, and banished
Your picking up their text produced and claiming it's gospel "Wrong"
The Alexandrian Text Type is the 1% text, the church never used nor distributed this abroad, this corrupt text was localized to the heretics in Egypt
All new Bible versions use this corrupt Alexandrian text type, NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, etc
The King James Version is supported by the Greek Received Text, that was used and distributed around the world
Yes the Jehovahs Witnesses use the Alexandrian Text Type in their New World Translation
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I will have to refine/ adjust the commentary...where are some other noncorrupt Alexandrian sources of this text. Do you know of any?
Thanks
Is Jesus God Himself or God the Son?
OP^
Another posed “either or” wondering dilemma of the OP.
There is no “or” dilemma.
God is omnipresent.
God purposed in HIMSELF, according to Gods Order and Way and Pleasure the manner in which God would fulfill His own Prophecy.
Lev 26:
[12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Omnipresent God, sat in His Throne in His Heavenly Holy Kingdom, and purposed in himself to send His Word in the likeness AS a man, TO Gods Footstool, ie. corrupt Earth, TO His people having co-mingled, been influenced by corrupt Gentiles, to reconcile His people ISRAEL back unto Himself.
Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Did the eternal Creator and Maker Holy God, reproduce an eternal off-spring with out beginning or ending? No. Reproduce by definition has a beginning.
Gods Word has no beginning. Gods Word had a Revealing.
OP^
Another posed “either or” wondering dilemma of the OP.
There is no “or” dilemma.
God is omnipresent.
God purposed in HIMSELF, according to Gods Order and Way and Pleasure the manner in which God would fulfill His own Prophecy.
Lev 26:
[12] And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
Eph 1:
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Omnipresent God, sat in His Throne in His Heavenly Holy Kingdom, and purposed in himself to send His Word in the likeness AS a man, TO Gods Footstool, ie. corrupt Earth, TO His people having co-mingled, been influenced by corrupt Gentiles, to reconcile His people ISRAEL back unto Himself.
Heb 1:
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Did the eternal Creator and Maker Holy God, reproduce an eternal off-spring with out beginning or ending? No. Reproduce by definition has a beginning.
Gods Word has no beginning. Gods Word had a Revealing.
Truth7t7
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The Alexandrian school itself was corrupt in Egypt, Clement, Origin, Arius, were its teachers
Origen was the producer of the manuscripts as my research finds, Alexandrian Text Types: Codex Vatacinus, Codex Sinaticus, Codex Alexandrius
These 3 greek texts are known as the 1% minority text type, these texts were used by the British Westcott & Hort in 1881 to create their Greek text, this text was used by the (ASV) American Standard Version committee in 1901 and the first Alexandrian Text Type translation hit American soil
Today you have these same Alexandrian Texts being used to "Create" the Nestle/Aland (Novus Testamentum Graece) this Greek text supports all modern translations, NIV, NASB, ESV, RSV, JW's New World Translation, Etc
The 1611 King James Version follows the (Greek Textus Receptus), the text that was received and used by the church in the world "Outside" of Alexandria Egypt
Feel free to ask any questions on the subject, be more than happy to answer
Truth7t7
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"God The Father, Spoke To God The Son"
"Thy Throne OH "God", Case Settled!
Hebrews 1:8KJV
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
No...the question here is not what God is capable of, but what we are capable of. Are we capable of believing that "God is all in all?"
Some apparently are not.
Jim B
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Quoting Scripture that says "God was manifest in the flesh" does not adhere to the OP? Are you serious???
ChristisGod
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It appears so lol . Nothing but obfuscation, equivocation, conjecture and projecting.
Jim B
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ChristisGod
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