The Divine Plan of the Ages by Charles T Russell - Jehovah's Witnesses

[face2face]

This thread is a discussion about the Kingdom of God as believed upon by the Jehovah Witnesses. The way in which this discussion will be held is to look at their beliefs concerning natural Israel and the things concerning the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and the coming Kingdom.

I've been trying to show @Aunty Jane the truth concerning the many unfulfilled prophecies concerning Israel in the OT many of which this thread will consider in some detail. Now I appreciate many Christian's believe in Heaven going, which is nowhere taught in the Bible as a hope for the saved, and while the JW's believe that in part, (it seems) many Christians hold to this wrong doctrine. All I ask, is if you want to make comment please keep it to the Scripture in focus, rather than forcing man-made notions upon it.

Here is an extract from a JW publication on their teaching on the early phases of the Kingdom of God on earth and the plight of natural Israel at that time.



Now, its clear from the above the JW's believed at one point, that natural Israel would be gathered first and Jerusalem would become a praise in the earth. They also wrote another book called The Harp of God, where they believed that "Israel is now [1921] being regathered, and is rebuilding Palestine exactly as foretold" - which for its time was absolutely spot on!

However, this truth was abandoned by them around 1946 in a book called "Let God be true"

"The facts and prophecies prove that natural Jews will never again be a chosen regathered people." pg 208

What I will do first is examine their original work, which contained a lot of quality exposition and references then move onto why they changed their belief and position on natural Israel.

This was a change to a fundamental doctrine and as we shall see their abandonment of these early revealed truths and their subsequent revisions causes ripples right through hundreds of passages in the Old and New Testaments.

Make no mistake, the inserted extract above holds some incredibly profound truths which all JW's today should take heed and understand.

In his service
F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is a joke...right? We expect progressive revelation of truth like the first Christians received. Even as Jesus left, the apostles showed that they did not fully understand about the nature of the Kingdom. Jesus told them to wait for the holy spirit....and even then they did not receive the whole story all at once.They spoke as if the coming of the Kingdom was imminent and yet here we are 2000 years later, still waiting for it to fulfill God's promises (Matthew 6:9-10)

When Jesus spoke about the appointment of his "faithful and discreet slave" in these last days, he said that his "slave" would "feed" his household of fellow slaves, their "food at the proper time" (Matthew 24:45)....that means, what Christ's disciples need to know, would be provided, when they needed to know it.
'The light on the path gets brighter as day dawns'....(Proverbs 4:18) We have found this to be true.

Natural Israel were abandoned by Jehovah as his people, and a new nation "producing its fruits" would replace them (Matthew 21:42-46).....this was spiritual Israel....."the Israel of God". (Acts 15:14; Galatians 6:16) God's elect were to experience a "new birth" as a "new creation". 'Mortality was to put on immortality'.....creatures of flesh would become creatures of spirit. This is what being "born again" means....a whole new body equipped for life in heaven.

Are you not getting the message that you don't seem to have anything of value to share with anyone. If you did, there would be so many more of you, with the same beliefs, meeting together to edify one another....(Hebrews 10:24-25)...and being seen preaching "in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations", (Matthew 24:14; Matthew 28:19-20) as Jesus commanded.
Jesus had somewhere to send those who responded to his preaching......where can you send people? I keep trying to tell you, but you will not listen.....IDK

 

[face2face]

This is a joke...right?

No serious!
You had the truth in your fingers and your community let them fall to the ground.

We expect progressive revelation of truth like the first Christians received.

A predictable response from someone who has proven time again to be unteachable.
It's not that your community change a core belief, while that in itself is interesting given your relentless conviction to be God's witnesses, it's the fact you went against a "cluster of prophecies" to force your new position .

Even as Jesus left, the apostles showed that they did not fully understand about the nature of the Kingdom. Jesus told them to wait for the holy spirit....and even then they did not receive the whole story all at once.They spoke as if the coming of the Kingdom was imminent and yet here we are 2000 years later, still waiting for it to fulfill God's promises (Matthew 6:9-10)

You still dont get it Jane - you had truth and lost it...this is not about a new revelation for the Word of God in 1886-1921 was the same Word of God in 1946 so that argument is mute!

Natural Israel were abandoned by Jehovah as his people, and a new nation "producing its fruits" would replace them (Matthew 21:42-46).....this was spiritual Israel....."the Israel of God". (Acts 15:14; Galatians 6:16) God's elect were to experience a "new birth" as a "new creation". 'Mortality was to put on immortality'.....creatures of flesh would become creatures of spirit. This is what being "born again" means....a whole new body equipped for life in heaven.

We will get to your quotes Jane....for now it's enough to state these truths, which by the way you have not denied, only justified by misrepresenting more Scripture to suite your communities position...this should be your concern!

Charles Russell could see a wonderful truth which he said was in Isaiah 1:26. What's powerful about these prophecies is their unfulfilled status and there being so many of them the weight of evidence (a cluster!) cannot be ignore!

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK then...you know it all, so off you go and convince others in the world of your discoveries because apparently you are the only one God has revealed them too.....all the best with that. pursuit
“Shaking the dust off”....not wasting any more time....

 

[face2face]

Jeremiah 33:14 is one such prophecy Charles Russell could see as applying to natural Israel at the time of Christ's coming:

- God will fulfill His gracious promise to Israel and Judah

The question of how?

- He will raise up (or out of) the seed of David a righteous man.

The first point is this promise will be fulfilled in Israel and Judah.

Not when Judah returns from Babylon!

This is a prophecy about a time yet future as we see in verse:

Jeremiah 33:7 I will restore Judah and Israel and will rebuild them as they were in days of old (Isaiah 1:26).
Jeremiah 33:8 I will purify them from all the sin that they committed against me.
I will forgive all their sins which they committed in rebelling against me.

Jeremiah 33:9 All the nations will hear about all the good things which I will do to them. This city will bring me fame, honor, and praise before them for the joy that I bring it. The nations will tremble in awe at all the peace and prosperity that I will provide for it.

The issue we have here is JW's believe God abandoned His Promises to Israel because they rejected His Son and the Gospel. In fact, they imply in their belief that Israel was capable of keeping the covenant God made with them and as such, JW's believe they also can keep the New Covenant in Christ Jesus which we know is not possible. The Gentiles will be shown to be as equally sinful as the Jews in that day of his coming!

JW's believe God has deserted Israel and it's this false teaching we will explore in this thread. They imply God failed!

However , Charles Russell believed that God would save the Tents of Judah first, drawing on his understanding of the incredible prophecies found in Zechariah which we must needs go next. (Zechariah 12:7)

 

[face2face]

The Branch

He is the beautiful branch, the righteous sprout of Yahweh, By Zechariah the branch was first revealed as a servant, and then as a king (Zechariah 6:12).

In Zechariah 3:8 the Branch is referred to as a bond-servant laying the foundation of the Temple, here he is referred to as the Man (ish) who is crowned king-priest. It's amazing the branch would come out of the root of Jesse! The servant becomes king. The Hebrew word here used for "branch" is not that which is used in Isaiah 11:1 but the word used to describe the Branch of Yahweh (Isaiah 4:2); the Branch of David (Jeremiah 23:5), the Branch of Righteousness Jeremiah 33:15); the Servant Zechariah 3:8 who becomes High Priest and King Zechariah 6:12.

Zechariah 6:12 Then say to him, ‘The Lord who rules over all says, “Look—here is the man whose name is Branch, who will sprout up from his place and build the temple of the Lord and he will be clothed in splendor, sitting as king on his throne and they will see eye to eye on everything.

The Lord Jesus Christ from the seed of David and the stem of Jesse will build both the literal Temple (Isaiah 56:7, with Mark 11:17 and the spiritual 1 Peter 2:5. 2 Corinthians 6:16. Ephesians 2:20-22 as a servant he laid the foundation stone (Zechariah 3:8) and as a king-priest he will complete the building.

(Notice Jesus calls the Temple "my house!" in Mark 11:17?)

Christ will be seen to be the chief corner stone of the which was laid when he overcame sin and death 1 Peter 2:6 & Ephesians 2:20 and the completion of this Temple is when he returns with the redeemed.

Jeremiah 33:9 All Nations will hear
Zechariah 14:6-8 All Nations come year by year
Isaiah 56:7 The Temple will be a house of prayer for all Nations
Psalms 86:9 All nations will come to worship Yahweh and the King who sits on Davids throne (Luke 1:32 fulfilled!!!)

 

[face2face]

Of Christ who is the fulfillment of God's promise to David that a righteous man would sit upon his throne

Isaiah 53:2 He (Christ) sprouted up like a twig before God, like a root out of parched soil

Cmp

Isaiah 11:1 A shoot will grow out of Jesse’s root stock, a bud will sprout from his roots. a spirit that gives extraordinary wisdom, a spirit that provides the ability to execute plans, a spirit that produces absolute loyalty to the Lord.

Cmp

Revelation 22:16 I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star!

David's Kingdom is on Earth and it's here that Christ must reign with his saints!

Now read 2 Samuel 7:11 cmp Isaiah 55:3

- God promised David He would build him a house! (unfulfilled)
- He referred to those who would embrace David's hope, and emulate his faith, and would be the immortal friends of his Son in the age to come.(unfulfilled)
- This Immortal house of David in Zechariah 3:8 It's obvious from this verse, and succeeding ones, that at Christ's return the tribes will not only be restored, but some of the principal families of previous ages as well. (unfulfilled)

The strength of these prophecies could not be ignored by Charles Russell but today all of these prophecies have been ignored by the JW's and replaced with spiritual Israel.

F2F

 

[LearningToLetGo]

What's the point of poking fun at one denomination or another? All it does is make those who do this sound mean spirited.

 

[face2face]

“Of All Nations……House of Prayer” Isaiah 56:7 (unfulfilled)

“Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’?

Mark 11:17
Isaiah 56:7

When in all the earth has the Jew and Gentile worshiped together?

Even today “they all look to their own way … gain” Mark 11:11; Isaiah 53:6

 

[face2face]

What's the point of poking fun at one denomination or another? All it does is make those who do this sound mean spirited.

You would need to get the context - read all our discussions to understand the importance of these teachings. Jane made certain claims about her community so I took it upon myself to shine a light on their error. They had a beautiful truth which they let go...maybe others will learn of the hope of Israel and turn from their error also. For now, its enough to highlight how the JW's believed in the restoration of Israel as a nation and how they would have a King reigning over them as God promised to His servant David. Now this might not be the "Christian hope" but it reveals the Hope, as taught by the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[face2face]

What's the point of poking fun at one denomination or another? All it does is make those who do this sound mean spirited.

Wow, you must have thought Jesus mean spirited Matthew 12:34 - I haven't called Jane a snake to my knowledge...although she lacks ears like one! And she claims her body only has truth! I am sure you are getting the picture.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Wow, you must have thought Jesus mean spirited Matthew 12:34 - I haven't called Jane a snake to my knowledge...although she lacks ears like one! And she claims her body only has truth! I am sure you are getting the picture.

LOL...at least I have a body.... and since there is only one truth, one single person who claims to know it all, isn't in possession of it.
Its a special kind of 'blindness' that allows you to ignore what you cannot acknowledge.

 

[LearningToLetGo]

Wow, you must have thought Jesus mean spirited Matthew 12:34 - I haven't called Jane a snake to my knowledge...although she lacks ears like one! And she claims her body only has truth! I am sure you are getting the picture.

Doesn't everyone think in their heart of hearts that their way is correct and everyone else's wrong?

 

[face2face]

LOL...at least I have a body.... and since there is only one truth, one single person who claims to know it all, isn't in possession of it.
Its a special kind of 'blindness' that allows you to ignore what you cannot acknowledge.

Did you put the dust back on those feet Jane?
Most people have a body Jane and I never claimed to know it all, as you put it!
Deal with the prophecies, or shake the dust off again and move on...

 

[face2face]

Doesn't everyone think in their heart of hearts that their way is correct and everyone else's wrong?

No that's not true...plenty of people agree with each other in this forum daily.
Here's the issue...Jane suffers terribly from confirmation bias and its not her fault as such, its the way she has been instructed. When you prove this time and time again a believer has two options?
1. Investigate the Word and discover its truth...
or,
2. Do what Jane has done - fall on her sword, claim she is right because 8.5 million other believers said so...and well dust the feet off as she has done.

Christians (not all) dont enter the Word or allow it to speak to them truthfully - they approach it thinking they already know what it means. As Jesus said "those that have ears to hear let them hear".
Good day.
F2F

 

[face2face]

Matthew 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man arriving on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Speaks to Jesus's elevation to authority as per Revelation 4:1-2 cmp Daniel 7:13-14.(see what is given to Jesus?)

=The Kingdoms of this world become Christ's Kingdom and he will sit upon Davids throne.

Son of Man comes in the “clouds of heaven” Matthew 26:64

Why do the tribes of the earth mourn when Christ (the branch) returns?

Revelation 1:7 - Because both Jew and Gentile are all guilty and needing to be convinced of sin - John 16:8

Christ visibly enthrone on the earth!

F2F

 

[ScottA]

This is hard to follow.

Who's the JW here?

And in one or two sentences, would you mind explaining just what the beef is?​

 

[face2face]

This is hard to follow.

Who's the JW here?

And in one or two sentences, would you mind explaining just what the beef is?​

The JW's held the true belief that God would reunite natural Israel under the Kingship of the Lord Jesus Christ on earth. They moved away from this belief by spiritualising "all" the OT prophecies and making them the "Israel of God". They believe 144,000 believers (those worthy) will ascend Heaven to rule the earth with Christ from Heaven which is nowhere taught in the Bible.

 

[Dropship]

..The issue we have here is JW's believe God abandoned His Promises to Israel because they rejected His Son and the Gospel..

Yep, not only Jews but all other Jesus-rejecters and atheists etc will be in a world o' hurt..

 

[face2face]

Yep, not only Jews but all other Jesus-rejecters and atheists etc will be in a world o' hurt..

As we are finding God never abandons His promises - He judges them severely but never goes back on His Promises 2 Peter 3:9 ...you and I are slack but not Him
The JW's and others dont know God or How He works - they will!