1 Thessalonians 4 Rapture

[Davy]

Looking at what Apostle Paul actually taught about the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him per the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter.

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul tells us to not worry about our loved ones that have died in Christ. Why? Because Paul says Lord Jesus will bring those 'asleep' saints with Him, when He comes.

That word "prevent" in the KJV of verse 15 is actually a Greek word that means 'precede', which means go beforehand. Paul is saying those of us still alive on that day shall not go before those asleep saints who have already died.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There Paul gives the timing of these events of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church. Paul links that to the time of the resurrection.

That's what that "shout", "voice of the archangel" and "trump of God" is about. It's about the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15. It's about the time when all in graves shall hear Christ's voice and come forth, per John 5:28-29.

But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory instead preaches those events happen PRIOR to the great tribulation, and they do preach this gathering event, particularly in the next verse.


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

The Greek for "caught up" is the Greek word harpazo. In the Latin translation from the Greek, it is the word 'raptus', which is where some get the English translation to 'rapture' from.

But the word 'rapture' is not the real point.

The TIME of the rapture is.

And per that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 evidence, the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church as shown there is on the final day of this world, AFTER the tribulation, which is when the resurrection will happen with Christ's coming.

So if you believe Jesus comes to rapture His Church PRIOR to the great tribulation, then you are saying the resurrection also happens PRIOR to the great tribulation, and that kind of idea goes directly opposite of what is written in God's Word.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Looking at what Apostle Paul actually taught about the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him per the 1 Thessalonians 4 chapter.

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Paul tells us to not worry about our loved ones that have died in Christ. Why? Because Paul says Lord Jesus will bring those 'asleep' saints with Him, when He comes.

That word "prevent" in the KJV of verse 15 is actually a Greek word that means 'precede', which means go beforehand. Paul is saying those of us still alive on that day shall not go before those asleep saints who have already died.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

There Paul gives the timing of these events of Christ's future coming and gathering of His Church. Paul links that to the time of the resurrection.

That's what that "shout", "voice of the archangel" and "trump of God" is about. It's about the "last trump" of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the 7th Trumpet of Revelation 11:15. It's about the time when all in graves shall hear Christ's voice and come forth, per John 5:28-29.

But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory instead preaches those events happen PRIOR to the great tribulation, and they do preach this gathering event, particularly in the next verse.


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

The Greek for "caught up" is the Greek word harpazo. In the Latin translation from the Greek, it is the word 'raptus', which is where some get the English translation to 'rapture' from.

But the word 'rapture' is not real point.

The TIME of the rapture is.

And per that 1 Thessalonians 4:16 evidence, the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church as shown there is on the final day of this world, AFTER the tribulation, which is when the resurrection will happen with Christ's coming. So if you believe Jesus comes to rapture His Church PRIOR to the great tribulation, then you are saying the resurrection also happens PRIOR to the great tribulation, and that kind of idea goes directly opposite of what is written in God's Word.

You started out on fire …and then you dowsed it.

 

[Davy]

You started out on fire …and then you dowsed it.

Nah, I covered exactly what Apostle Paul revealed there in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The likely reason you disagree is that you're on men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory which tries to say that 'resurrection' and "caught up" event happens PRIOR to the great tribulation.

But wait a minute, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors actually do not... cover that part about the resurrection of the asleep saints that Paul showed there, now do they? No, they don't, as they just SKIP right over that event...

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[Enoch111]

the time of Christ's coming to gather His Church as shown there is on the final day of this world, AFTER the tribulation, which is when the resurrection will happen with Christ's coming.

Since Revelation 19 is AFTER the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (all described in Revelation 6-18) you will be hard pressed to conclude from Revelation 19 (the Second Coming of Christ) that (a) this is the "final day of this world" (b) that this is when Christ comes to gather His Church and (c) this is when the Resurrection takes place. This is the day of divine judgment and massive slaughter, not the Resurrection/Rapture. So the question remains: "How and why do Christians come up with BIZARRE scenarios when Scripture is quite clear?"

1 Thessalonians 4 is definitely about the Resurrection/Rapture. For all intents and purposes that is one event. But divine necessity dictates that it must be before any divine judgements and wrath are poured out upon the unbelieving world. And there is the "little" matter of the Marriage of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Coming. Can you imagine a wedding where the Bride is absent?

 

[Davy]

Since Revelation 19 is AFTER the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (all described in Revelation 6-18) you will be hard pressed to conclude from Revelation 19 (the Second Coming of Christ) that (a) this is the "final day of this world" (b) that this is when Christ comes to gather His Church and (c) this is when the Resurrection takes place. This is the day of divine judgment and massive slaughter, not the Resurrection/Rapture. So the question remains: "How and why do Christians come up with BIZARRE scenarios when Scripture is quite clear?"

Jesus pointed to only ONE time of "great tribulation" associated with the Signs of the End He gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13. That "great tribulation" is to occur at the very end of this world, just prior to His future return. And He only comes one more time, and He showed it is AFTER that same "great tribulation". So the idea of more than one tribulation taught for the end by the pre-trib rapture doctors just ain't going to get it.

The events described in the Revelation 19:1-10 section is a view for AFTER the tribulation, and AFTER the Babylon Harlot is destroyed, and thus is for AFTER Christ's future return, which is also when that marriage supper with Jesus will occur.

But the Revelation 19:12-21 section is about the "day of the Lord", the day of Jesus' only future coming to do battle at Armageddon with His army, and end this present world time. So this Rev.19 section is actually a time on the LAST DAY of this present world. It's those events with Jesus' coming that will END this present world. And that is when Jesus showed the resurrection of both the "resurrection of life", and the "resurrection of damnation" will happen, as written in John 5:28-29.

1 Thessalonians 4 is definitely about the Resurrection/Rapture. For all intents and purposes that is one event. But divine necessity dictates that it must be before any divine judgements and wrath are poured out upon the unbelieving world. And there is the "little" matter of the Marriage of the Lamb BEFORE the Second Coming. Can you imagine a wedding where the Bride is absent?

Can't have that resurrection PRIOR to the "great tribulation". There is no way... to fit that event within the Signs of the end that Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, nor in His Revelation prior to the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Nah, I covered exactly what Apostle Paul revealed there in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The likely reason you disagree is that you're on men's doctrines of a pre-trib rapture theory which tries to say that 'resurrection' and "caught up" event happens PRIOR to the great tribulation.

But wait a minute, the Pre-trib Rapture doctors actually do not... cover that part about the resurrection of the asleep saints that Paul showed there, now do they? No, they don't, as they just SKIP right over that event...

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

I understand what you are implying ….but No, that is not what I believe.

And quite simply this subject to me is "somewhat" irrelevant……seriously. Because when it comes to the rapture or tribulation …it is out of my hands, it’s out of your hands …it doesn’t matter what we think we know, or when we think it will happen…or who is going where and when and how……I mean how do you prepare for something that is inevitable, that you have no control over, and you don’t know when it is going to happen….you can’t. But the things we can control and improve ….like our walk in Christ Jesus….that is most beneficial to us.

For me, the renewed mind believing, operating the manifestation of the spirit, working the Word of God……those are thing I can control and work at…but, the return of Christ, be it the rapture or tribulation or both…. it’s going to happen when God deems it time, and nothing you or I do… will change that.

With that said ….there is a significant amount of information regarding this subject that both the prophets of old, Jesus and others have prophesied about regarding the end times….and if God felt it necessary to have a sufficient amount of ink devoted to this …. far be it from me to dismiss it.

I am exhausted tonight …but I will elaborate on this tomorrow…in doing so, I will explain my statement of irrelevancy. It’s not the Word that I am speaking about… as being irrelevant.

 

[Davy]

I understand what you are implying ….but No, that is not what I believe.

And quite simply this subject to me is "somewhat" irrelevant……seriously.
....

Well, with that last statement, which shows utter Biblical ignorance, I'll not waste a moment with someone who thinks about The Word of God like that.

 

[RedFan]

1 Thessalonians 4 is definitely about the Resurrection/Rapture. For all intents and purposes that is one event. But divine necessity dictates that it must be before any divine judgements and wrath are poured out upon the unbelieving world.

I don't know what "divine necessity" adds to the argument, but doesn't Mark 13:24-27 give the timing? Tribulation comes first, and THEN comes the Lord for His elect? To me, that's the end of the discussion.

 

[Davy]

I don't know what "divine necessity" adds to the argument, but doesn't Mark 13:24-27 give the timing? Tribulation comes first, and THEN comes the Lord for His elect? To me, that's the end of the discussion.

His "divine necessity" idea comes from the pre-trib rapture theory doctors. It's just an idea they put in his mind that Jesus would not leave His Church here on earth to suffer His wrath He is going to pour out upon the whole earth.

What is strange though, is that many brethren not... on man's pre-trib rapture theory also do not understand about God's cup of wrath to be poured out upon this earth on that day. Few understand that we (Christ's faithful Church that wait for Him) do not have to go anywhere on that day of His coming when that cup of wrath is poured upon this earth (Revelation 19:15; Revelation 16:15-19).

In Daniel 3, we were given an example of how God's servants Shadrach, Meshech, and Abednego were cast into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and Neb saw a fourth man in there with them with the appearance as The Son of God. They came out of that hot furnace unharmed, and their clothes did not even smell of smoke! Thus they were protected through... that fire. But when the servants of the king of Babylon just got near that hot fiery furnace, they were instantly burned up. Thus God's consuming fire on the last day of this world, which is what His cup of wrath is about, will NOT harm those in Christ still alive on earth.

Isa 33:10-17
10 Now will I rise, saith the LORD; now will I be exalted; now will I lift up Myself.

11 Ye shall conceive chaff, ye shall bring forth stubble: your breath, as fire, shall devour you.

12 And the people shall be as the burnings of lime: as thorns cut up shall they be burned in the fire.

13 Hear, ye that are far off, what I have done; and, ye that are near, acknowledge My might.

14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?

15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

16 He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure.

17 Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.
KJV

 

[Tommy Cool]

Well, with that last statement, which shows utter Biblical ignorance, I'll not waste a moment with someone who thinks about The Word of God like that.

I explained at the end of my post what I meant ...and I was going to post my response and explain ...but not going to waste your time...I will just start a new thread.