22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

Not surprisingly, he just completely ignores it when we point out the folly in his logic by showing how it would make complete nonsense out of Revelation 11 and 12. At least we know unbiased observers can see how faulty his interpretive approach is.

Interacting with him gives him credibility he doesn't deserve. I wouldn't waste my time. He is deliberately trying to inflame.

 

[WPM]

Exactly. It only takes a "little season" of time for a number of them "as the sand of the sea" to change their minds from what they had believed for the past 1000 years and oppose Christ and His people. It makes the whole thing (establishing an earthly kingdom) seem completely pointless and a total failure. It makes a lot more sense for Christ to just destroy His enemies when He returns instead of pointlessly messing around for 1000+ years before doing so. Thankfully, that is exactly what scripture teaches will happen.

Amen! Deception is rampant in the Premil millennium because there are countless people that reject Christ in their heart and are forced to give feigned worship in Jerusalem to Christ or they will be swiped with Christ's rod of iron? You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust! It is a sham. I am glad it will never occur.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I'm not adding to the word of God and I don't appreciate that false accusation at all. I believe I was clear in what I was saying. That you have trouble with reading comprehension is not my fault.

Let me try one more time to get you to understand the point. The same Greek word that starts Revelation 20 (kai - Strong's G2532) is used here:

Revelation 12:1 And (Greek: kai) there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This followed the description of the seventh trumpet at the end of Revelation 11. And this talks about Christ's birth and His ascension. Using the logic you're using to interpret Revelation 20, we would have to conclude that Christ was born after the seventh trumpet sounded. Which obviously is not the case. So, to assume that the Greek word "kai" can only be used to describe an event that happens after what was just described is a false assumption. Do you understand my point now?

You claimed it was another vision.

The ONLY way to see that is if John said, and he saw another vision

So please do not falsly accuse me of something that I did not do

2nd. I wrote the passage was written without verse breaks or a chapter break. You can;t sit there and read it and say that it is another vision. They are things which happened AT THE SAME TIME after something happened.

Your argument in rev 12 does not fit. Rev 12: 1 does is not something which happened in sequence after rev 11. Rev 11 ended with the last trumpet. There was nt another trumpet after that. Rev 12 is a totally different context vision.

You can not say this with rev 20. The end of rev 19 and begining of rev 20 is all in sequence at the end of the tribulation period after the battle

1 the beast and false prophet were cast into the lake of fire
2 AND the dragon, who is satan himself is caught and bound.

All three of those things happen at that time

 

[Eternally Grateful]

My goodness, are you even trying to understand? Who is saying anything about an event described in scripture not happening? NO ONE. You keep wasting your time arguing with non-existent straw men. Pentecost was a spiritual event, was it not?

So your saying pentecost never really happened?

No, Pentecost was a literal event,

You have been equating spiritualizing things with making them non-literal. That's ridiculous. An event can be spiritual and still literal and what happens on the day of Pentecost is an example of that. Why can't you even understand the most simple things like this?

My friend, when you say something is spiritual. You are saying it is a spiritual truth, not a literal event.

If you think something is spiritual AND literal. Your the first person who argues this point I have ever heard.. And I praise you for that.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you think anyone is saying otherwise? NO! [/qyite]
Well actually yes, People have been saying that in this very thread

So, why are you acting as if anyone is saying otherwise? You're wasting a lot of time by doing that. Those are called straw man arguments because you're making arguments against things that no one even believes.

Lol..ok..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Interacting with him gives him credibility he doesn't deserve. I wouldn't waste my time. He is deliberately trying to inflame.

Dude, you need to back up. Your the one who has been trying to inflame attacking pre mil believers as if they do not know anythign about the word.

Practice what you preach!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Amen! Deception is rampant in the Premil

See here you go. Inciting hate against a doctrine. And doing the very thing you accuse me of.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It says the strongman is bound so those in his darkness can come into the light.

He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

Sorry, I do not see where it says what you claim.. it says nothing like that.

Our faith in what we do not see saves us. 2Thess 2 below.

Your future millennium has billions perishing even when satan is supposed to be bound.

it does? Where? Where do you get that my millennium has billions dieting I have never heard such a thing, and I have been studying this for quite a few decades

Doesnt change anything as they remain outside the camp of the saints for the whole thousand years. Not even having the Glorified Christ and his Glorified saints fully observed for a thousand years makes any significant difference.

This is how God wants us to be saved....,[/quiote]
Do what????

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Stand Firm
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

All this occurs at the appearance of his coming , after satan goes forth in all his power.
God bless

Ok. This makes no sense in light of our conversation and satan being bound. Can you please explain?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

It is saturated with sin and sinners, crying and dying, decay and disease.

That’s not how it reads to me. There will be no more war, but there will be disputes, which Jesus will settle.
Animals will become peaceful and no longer kill each other and children can play with snakes and not be bitten. If someone dies at 100 they will be considered a youth! Men will outlive the work of their hands, like…if they build a house, they will live longer than the house and have to build another one!
It’s not yet perfection. Death will still exist for another thousand years, but neither does it sound like billions will die. It sounds so greatly improved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Thanks, bro, I appreciate it. I'd like to know how exactly a spirit being like Satan could be literally bound with a chain, anyway. No Premil has ever been able to explain that.

Well then you don’t the power of God to bind even his greatest creation.

No premil should have to explain it to you. You should know and understand if God wants to bind satan where he can not influence the nations. By golly God can and will do it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hi.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Yes

Being bound so he can not decieve means satan can not gather up nations and armies and come against Gods people. Like he has been doing since Israel was first created.

It has NOTHING to do with the gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Of course you are not going to address any post, argument or Scripture directly as you would immediately have to admit that the Op is spot on. That is why you must run from this discussion. Your ongoing avoidance and admissions have reinforced the Op. For that I am most thankful. You have yet to bring anything to the table of evidential worth and nothing to corroborate your private opinion of Rev 20 apart from your private opinion of Rev 20. That highlights the sandy foundation that Premil is built upon. Scripture warns us of the folly of such a foolish foundation.

There has been nothing to rebut apart from your insults and avoidance. That is Premil in a nutshell, and why the reader should reject it.

Lol

My friend, I have not only spoken of the scripture of rev 20. But I have broke it down and explained word for word what it said.

You on the other hand have not yet once, even though I have asked you multiple times. Been able to do this

You are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.

You do realise what they call that do you not??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not surprisingly, he just completely ignores it when we point out the folly in his logic by showing how it would make complete nonsense out of Revelation 11 and 12. At least we know unbiased observers can see how faulty his interpretive approach is.

Yawn

Whatever my friend. Do you want me to do to rev 11 and 12 what I did to rev 19 and 20

Rev 11:
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

If you can not read the above, an realise that the words (and great hail) was the finality of the 7th trumpet.

And then what followed is going BACK to when christ was born. In other words, IT IS A DIFFERENT EVENT

And if you try to look at rev 19 and 20. And where there is NO logical conclusion at the end of 19. And 20 begins a different event. So you would have to ASSUMe something in rev 20 that does NOT have to be assumed in rev 12

Then I do not know how to help you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Exactly. It only takes a "little season" of time for a number of them "as the sand of the sea" to change their minds from what they had believed for the past 1000 years and oppose Christ and His people. It makes the whole thing (establishing an earthly kingdom) seem completely pointless and a total failure. It makes a lot more sense for Christ to just destroy His enemies when He returns instead of pointlessly messing around for 1000+ years before doing so. Thankfully, that is exactly what scripture teaches will happen.

Or maybe God has a plan. To prove throughout all eternity, that even when he rules on earth himself. Man will still rebel and come against him. And through this. Any possible thought of an excuse for anyone to make that God is not a fair God. That if he just came to earth himself everyone would believe him. Would but stopped

its not my job to determin or question why God does things

its my job to look at what he says, and not question it..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are not getting it are you? In the figurative depiction it is the dragon that is thrown in prison and put in chains.

THERE IS NO FIGURATIVE ANYTHING.

SATAN HIMSELF IS GRABBED AND BOUND

Your trying to tell me to IGNORE what is said. And try too make it symbolic.

I CAN NOT DO THAT.

It is metaphoric symbolism. The spiritual meaning of the symbolism is that it depicts the spiritual restrain that is upon Satan as the Gospel invades the nations since Christ's earthly ministry. But once again you miss the symbolism and you force a literal meaning on blatantly apocalyptic language. That is why you are so confused on Rev 20.

See here you go. Did not someone just confess that I got people wrong and falsly c=accused them of spiritualizing something and not making it literal?

SJ is correct that the portrayal relates to a dragon. I know it is difficult for your literalist mindset to grasp that.

If this was true. THEN SATAN COULD NOTBE RELEASED TO DECIEVE THE NATIONS AFTER THE 1000 YEARS AND GATHER AN ARMY!!

Its not difficult my friend its impossible. Because you are giving me no reason in the text to see it your way. Your just giving me your view and asking me to spiritualise a literal event, when nothing in the text tells me to do that..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Revelation is written in an apocalyptic manner. It is not the symbol that is important. It is what the symbol means. Apocalyptic language is similar to parabolic language. It represents spiritual truths and literal ongoing spiritual events.

Let us establish an important fact, Revelation 20 does not directly say that Satan is “bound.” It is actually the “dragon” in this symbolic depiction which represents Satan that is “bound.” After all, Satan is not a literal “dragon.” The “dragon” is simply a symbol relating to Satan. The dragon being bound up in chains and imprisoned symbolizes Satan’s inability to deceive the Gentiles “nations” since the 1st Advent. So, it doesn’t say that Satan would be sealed in a “prison” in the illustration, but rather the “dragon” would be sealed in a “prison.”

Let us be crystal clear: invisible spirits are not held in a physical prison with literal chains. We are looking at figurative language explaining the restraint Satan and his minions have been under since the First Advent. Amil believes that the kingdom of God is in conflict with Satan but that the chains upon him, the beast and the fallen angels are spiritual preventing them from thwarting the great commission to the nations (Gentiles). He cannot stop their enlightening. The chains restrict his previous global influence. He was basically unchallenged outside of Israel. The “binding” mentioned in Revelation 20 is speaking metaphorically of Satan's authority over the Gentile nations, which was dealt a decisive blow through the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation is the NT daniel

God is doing what he said he will do

Rev 1:

Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are,and the things which will take place after this.

The things of revelation are a document which tell of things which have already happened. The things which were happening in johns day, and a prophecy of things or events which will take place in the future. NOT spiritual truths.

 

[Truth7t7]

I'm not adding to the word of God and I don't appreciate that false accusation at all. I believe I was clear in what I was saying. That you have trouble with reading comprehension is not my fault.

Let me try one more time to get you to understand the point. The same Greek word that starts Revelation 20 (kai - Strong's G2532) is used here:

Revelation 12:1 And (Greek: kai) there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

This followed the description of the seventh trumpet at the end of Revelation 11. And this talks about Christ's birth and His ascension. Using the logic you're using to interpret Revelation 20, we would have to conclude that Christ was born after the seventh trumpet sounded. Which obviously is not the case. So, to assume that the Greek word "kai" can only be used to describe an event that happens after what was just described is a false assumption. Do you understand my point now?

Revelation 11:15-18 represents the "Future" second coming and final judgment

 

[Timtofly]

This followed the description of the seventh trumpet at the end of Revelation 11. And this talks about Christ's birth and His ascension. Using the logic you're using to interpret Revelation 20, we would have to conclude that Christ was born after the seventh trumpet sounded. Which obviously is not the case. So, to assume that the Greek word "kai" can only be used to describe an event that happens after what was just described is a false assumption. Do you understand my point now?

Not exactly quite right.

Context states the dragon, the FP, and the beast show up at Armageddon.

Two are cast into the Lake of fire, and one is bound for 1,000 years. That is the context.

You then as an Amil remove two of these and add them to after the 1,000 years.

So now you say Satan was bound for 1,000 years and then the FP and beast are cast into the LOF.

That is your reversal of chronology.

Revelation 12 is going back in time to explain why Satan is given 42 months in Revelation 13. There is no mention of 1,000 years, because it has been 1992 years since the Cross.

The Gentiles still have total control over their individual kingdoms. That has not changed since Noah's Flood. Yet when the 7th Trumpet sounds all those individual kingdoms are now under control of Jesus. Unless they are given to Satan for 42 months. So only at the 7th Trumpet will it even be determined of Satan is even allowed 42 months.

Armageddon is only after those 42 months not at the start of those 42 months. Because the FP and beast are cast into the LOF at Armageddon, not prior to their 42 months of reign with Satan.

So in context of Revelation, the only time an angel comes down is also at Armageddon. Unless there is no 42 months. Then Satan is still bound for 1,000 years, at the 7th Trumpet, and not given control of earth for 42 months.

At the end in Revelation 20, Satan is not given 42 months of full control to ruin the last 1,000 years of a perfect reign of Christ. That is Amil totally trashing the 1,000 years and a burnt offering. Jesus is handing back a glorious creation without a Satan, or any who would choose Satan over God.

You can call that nonsense all you want, but that is God's Word. I am not misquoting Amil one iota. Amil change God's Word and context with an opinion called recapitulation. I don't fault Paul for calling it an opinion. I understand totally what you all are saying, so making personal attacks is just avoiding what God actually is stating in the book of Revelation. Feel free to actually address the points found in Revelation.

 

[Timtofly]

Did you mean to say that all you're doing is twisting them? Because that's what you do all the time.

Not once have you proved that false accusation.

 

[Timtofly]

I would never compare Premils to non-Christians like Muslims or Mormons. It doesn't get any more offensive than that. If you can't understand that then you have even less discernment than I thought.

That is you twisting my words. I was pointing out that numbers do not make nonsense more believable. Noah was literally the only one who believed God. Did the millions of those who died in the Flood, not trust in nonsense?

You accused me of nonsense, because you think no one else believes like I do. You have actually talked to all 8 billion people on earth and know what they believe?

So, you can stop being offended at your own false interpretation of my post. I did not compare you to any one. I was stating that numbers don't make nonsense any less nonsensical.