22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Enoch111]

I'd like to know how exactly a spirit being like Satan could be literally bound with a chain, anyway. No Premil has ever been able to explain that.

It is enough for us to simply read it and believe that that is true. There are countless things in Scripture which cannot be explained by human beings. That does not make them false. It simply means that we have no business trying to ask silly questions.

 

[Timtofly]

What did he say in his historical record?

Provide a verbatim copy paste.

Why don't you? How do you know they fled in 66AD. That was your quote, not mine.

If you have proof it was not Josephus, then quote your source.

 

[Timtofly]

Hi.

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

That was after, not during. Your Scripture quote did not back up your claim of: "while Satan was bound".

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. It only takes a "little season" of time for a number of them "as the sand of the sea" to change their minds from what they had believed for the past 1000 years and oppose Christ and His people. It makes the whole thing (establishing an earthly kingdom) seem completely pointless and a total failure. It makes a lot more sense for Christ to just destroy His enemies when He returns instead of pointlessly messing around for 1000+ years before doing so. Thankfully, that is exactly what scripture teaches will happen.

Fist off, "past 1,000 years"?. How do you know who actually turned against God? That would indicate you accept there is a 1,000 years to have been of a state of mind of that length. You have been presented that those born in the last 100 years would be the largest group, and more likely to be turned by Satan after 20 to 30 generations of offspring. 10s of billions could have been born and forced to live at the 4 corners of the earth because that is the only real estate available after 900 years.

How is your opinion any less nonsense than the common sense of the passing of time? The first generation that was resurrected out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, cannot sin, nor ever die again period.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Since this thread is about pre-mill should you not point out pre-mill thought based on Scripture, and lose the opinionated false accusations?

Secondly, the iron rod completely shatters any enemy uprising by killing a cursed child that exhibits a rebellious attitude? Sin can never get a foothold, because Jesus knows one's mind, and there is no rehab, but an instant Death sentence. That is what Death is for, starting at the 4th Seal.

"And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

Symbolism for the place emptied and thrown into the LOF:

"and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Do you claim sheol and Death are two separate locations running currently, or just sheol? Since they are together at the 4th Seal, it is plausible, that at the Second Coming, the 5th and 6th Seal, sheol will no longer be used. Sheol holds those still named in the Lamb's book of life, that is being unsealed. Once the 7th Seal is opened, humans killed are immediately removed from the Lamb's book of life and placed in Death. That would be the goats and tares of the final harvest. But Death is not just for the few days or months between the Second Coming and the Millennium. Death is for those under 100 who are eradicated by the iron rod rule per Isaiah 65, the whole time period of that 1,000 years. Those in sheol are still there waiting for the GWT to be removed from the Lamb's book of life. But no one dies and goes to sheol during the Millennium. A rebel instantly placed in Death.

Once again the only rebuttal, will probably be a one liner: "that is just nonsense". Yet no more nonsensical than the stuff Amil make up to get 22 points into a few posts online. At least I post points from Scripture, which you then call nonsense, to prove the 22 nonsensical points in this thread which are only opinion, and void of Scripture for the majority.

 

[WPM]

THERE IS NO FIGURATIVE ANYTHING.

SATAN HIMSELF IS GRABBED AND BOUND

Your trying to tell me to IGNORE what is said. And try too make it symbolic.

I CAN NOT DO THAT.



See here you go. Did not someone just confess that I got people wrong and falsly c=accused them of spiritualizing something and not making it literal?


If this was true. THEN SATAN COULD NOTBE RELEASED TO DECIEVE THE NATIONS AFTER THE 1000 YEARS AND GATHER AN ARMY!!

Its not difficult my friend its impossible. Because you are giving me no reason in the text to see it your way. Your just giving me your view and asking me to spiritualise a literal event, when nothing in the text tells me to do that..

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The depiction represents the devil and the spiritual restraint he has been under since the First Advent. But it was a dragon in this illustration (that represented Satan) that was placed in a spiritual prison.

 

[WPM]

Lol

My friend, I have not only spoken of the scripture of rev 20. But I have broke it down and explained word for word what it said.

You on the other hand have not yet once, even though I have asked you multiple times. Been able to do this

You are guilty of the very thing you accuse me of.

You do realise what they call that do you not??

If you are telling me the truth: present the post you did that on. I see nothing but fudging and avoidance.

 

[WPM]

Yawn

Whatever my friend. Do you want me to do to rev 11 and 12 what I did to rev 19 and 20

Rev 11:
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

If you can not read the above, an realise that the words (and great hail) was the finality of the 7th trumpet.

And then what followed is going BACK to when christ was born. In other words, IT IS A DIFFERENT EVENT

And if you try to look at rev 19 and 20. And where there is NO logical conclusion at the end of 19. And 20 begins a different event. So you would have to ASSUMe something in rev 20 that does NOT have to be assumed in rev 12

Then I do not know how to help you

That is totally untrue! That is why you duck around the evidence when I present it from an Amil position. It blows apart your private interpretation. I will try for a 4th time to get you to acknowledge the climactic detail you have avoided, although I will not hold by breath.

Revelation 19:11-16, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

A plain reading of the passage before us reveals that Christ is coming back with wrath to execute judgment and destroy all those left behind. He is not going to reward men for their rebellion by leading them unto the glorified new earth. Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text. The King of kings and Lord of lords will not have to fight for victory. He already won that decisively at the cross.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: Heis coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted millennial age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

 

[Timtofly]

Amen! Deception is rampant in the Premil millennium because there are countless people that reject Christ in their heart and are forced to give feigned worship in Jerusalem to Christ or they will be swiped with Christ's rod of iron? You have the greatest battle in history at the end of the pre-millennial millennium, when the wicked under the command of Satan surround Christ and the glorified saints as a sand of the sea. Your millennium of bliss is a total bust! It is a sham. I am glad it will never occur.

So you are glad Satan is never loosed and no one rebels and surrounds Christ on the throne in Jerusalem?

Then Armageddon never happens and the pit is never seen? It is all just a made up story that John dreamt, and not from God at all?

You are really glad it all will never happen?

 

[Timtofly]

Neither is Christ coming to engage in some ill-fated war against evil for a thousand years – that is not remotely in the text

No pre-mill has ever claimed this point.

You are the only one here making that claim, and you are an Amil, so that would make an Amil the one with a false fact.

 

[Timtofly]

I'd like to know how exactly a spirit being like Satan could be literally bound with a chain, anyway. No Premil has ever been able to explain that.

No Amil has ever been able to explain that away.

The symbolism tells us Satan is bound up unable to do anything.

Amil make it a literal chain as if Satan can attack at will to the end of his chain.

The chain is symbolic of the fact, Satan cannot move period. Not that Satan is chained to the throne and scare people passing by.

The pit is symbolic of hidden away out of sight, never to come into remembrance.

It is Amil that make it sound like Satan is just being ordinary Satan throughout history, and dissing the symbolism to make it fit their biased opinion.

 

[covenantee]

Why don't you? How do you know they fled in 66AD. That was your quote, not mine.

If you have proof it was not Josephus, then quote your source.

Never have I said that "it was not Josephus". That's just another of your innumerable insufferable misrepresentations.

"The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

Your turn to provide a verbatim quote of what you claim is in Josephus' historical record.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes we are still on the same side as its not essential doctrine

wanted to thank you brother for a peaceful honest discussion. even if we do not agree. Pray other people would be like this.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

The depiction represents the devil and the spiritual restraint he has been under since the First Advent. But it was a dragon in this illustration (that represented Satan) that was placed in a spiritual prison.

This is my last response to you my friend. I am about done playing your games

You say this REPRESENTS.

Look how you how you only highlighted part of the passage. If this is ALL that was said. You MAY be correct.

But you did not look at the whole passage. you in essence tried to ignore or hide what else was said.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I have reposed what you posted to show you what I am talking about

1. You said it represents. The passage said IT IS.
2. You want me to see represent where it says is.. the word represent is not there. Because that is not what is being said.

You want to think it represents? thats your right. you can believe anything you want.

But don;t attack or belittle those of us who see what is clearly written and try to say we are decieved because we doi not see the word represent.

 

[WPM]

That’s not how it reads to me. There will be no more war, but there will be disputes, which Jesus will settle.
Animals will become peaceful and no longer kill each other and children can play with snakes and not be bitten. If someone dies at 100 they will be considered a youth! Men will outlive the work of their hands, like…if they build a house, they will live longer than the house and have to build another one!
It’s not yet perfection. Death will still exist for another thousand years, but neither does it sound like billions will die. It sounds so greatly improved.

I am confused here. When does the NHNE arrive - before or after the millennium?

Also, where do you get the above in Revelation 20? I do not see it.

 

[WPM]

This is my last response to you my friend. I am about done playing your games

You say this REPRESENTS.

Look how you how you only highlighted part of the passage. If this is ALL that was said. You MAY be correct.

But you did not look at the whole passage. you in essence tried to ignore or hide what else was said.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I have reposed what you posted to show you what I am talking about

1. You said it represents. The passage said IT IS.
2. You want me to see represent where it says is.. the word represent is not there. Because that is not what is being said.

You want to think it represents? thats your right. you can believe anything you want.

Is Satan a literal dragon? Yes or no?

But don;t attack or belittle those of us who see what is clearly written and try to say we are decieved because we doi not see the word represent.

What are you talking about? When did I say you were deceived? Why do you always have to twist what I say? That is normally a sign that someone has no answer to the biblical facts: attack the messenger when you have no answer to the message.

 

[Truth7t7]

But don;t attack or belittle those of us who see what is clearly written and try to say we are decieved because we doi not see the word represent.

Nobody is attacking you as you claim, and you don't see what is clearly written as you claim

It's your opinion that you see what is written, and it's my opinion your eschatology is out in left field

 

[Marty fox]

wanted to thank you brother for a peaceful honest discussion. even if we do not agree. Pray other people would be like this.

And thanks to you too, not everybody can do it as emotions come into play

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I am confused here. When does the NHNE arrive - before or after the millennium?

Also, where do you get the above in Revelation 20? I do not see it.

My current understanding is the new heavens and earth are after the millenium.

I see it in rev 20 here: 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

When I consider that there will still be at least some death, though greatly reduced, and consider that there will still be a curse of no rain falling on a location that refuses to go yearly to the feast of booths, I have to arrive at the conclusion that those verses cannot be jammed into the NHNE.

 

[WPM]

This is my last response to you my friend. I am about done playing your games

You say this REPRESENTS.

Look how you how you only highlighted part of the passage. If this is ALL that was said. You MAY be correct.

But you did not look at the whole passage. you in essence tried to ignore or hide what else was said.

Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

I have reposed what you posted to show you what I am talking about

1. You said it represents. The passage said IT IS.
2. You want me to see represent where it says is.. the word represent is not there. Because that is not what is being said.

You want to think it represents? thats your right. you can believe anything you want.

But don;t attack or belittle those of us who see what is clearly written and try to say we are decieved because we doi not see the word represent.

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [Gr. deo] him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

 

[WPM]

My current understanding is the new heavens and earth are after the millenium.

I see it in rev 20 here: 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ok. So, why do you attribute detail pertaining to the NHNE in Isa 65 to your supposed future millennium when it relates to the eternal state (which is after the millennium)?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say "there will be no more war, but there will be disputes, which Jesus will settle. Animals will become peaceful and no longer kill each other and children can play with snakes and not be bitten. If someone dies at 100 they will be considered a youth! Men will outlive the work of their hands, like…if they build a house, they will live longer than the house and have to build another one"? You did not present that.