22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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stunnedbygrace

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Ok. So, why do you attribute detail pertaining to the NHNE in Isa 65 to your supposed future millennium when it relates to the eternal state (which is after the millennium)?

Where in Revelation 20 does it say "there will be no more war, but there will be disputes, which Jesus will settle. Animals will become peaceful and no longer kill each other and children can play with snakes and not be bitten. If someone dies at 100 they will be considered a youth! Men will outlive the work of their hands, like…if they build a house, they will live longer than the house and have to build another one"? You did not present that.

Because I do not think Isaiah 2 can be referring to NHNE since there will be no war but will still be disputes. I do not think there will be disputes on NHNE at all. So I have to fit that verse somewhere else and I can’t fit it in the here and now either because there are still wars.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

I also cannot place Isaiah 65:20 in NHNE because at least some death will still occur. So I see that a jump backwards in time in the prophecy has occurred there.
 
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WPM

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Because I do not think Isaiah 2 can be referring to NHNE since there will be no war but will still be disputes. I do not think there will be disputes on NHNE at all. So I have to fit that verse somewhere else and I can’t fit it in the here and now either because there are still wars.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

This is getting even more confusing. You are presenting nothing from Rev 20 or anywhere else in the NT and not addressing the issue here. You are also taking NHNE passages pertaining to the NHNE (Isa 65) and the last days (Isa 2) and applying them to your so-called future millennium and Rev 20.

So, let me clarify:
  1. When did the last days start?
  2. When do the last days end?
  3. When is the last day?
 

stunnedbygrace

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This is getting even more confusing. You are presenting nothing from Rev 20 or anywhere else in the NT and not addressing the issue here. You are also taking NHNE passages pertaining to the NHNE (Isa 65) and the last days (Isa 2) and applying them to your so-called future millennium and Rev 20.

So, let me clarify:
  1. When did the last days start?
  2. When do the last days end?
  3. When is the last day?

1. I don’t know. My current understanding is that the millenium is the beginning of the last days.
2. I think the last days end after death, the last enemy, is done away with and there is no longer a sun and moon to mark days with and the NHNE come down from heaven.
3. I think the very, very last day is when satan and those who gather and side with him are destroyed and the NHNE come down.

If you recall, from the beginning I said I think ALL of the systematic eschatologies try to jam some verses where they cannot fit.
 
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WPM

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1. I don’t know. My current understanding is that the millenium is the beginning of the last days.
2. I think the last days end after death, the last enemy, is done away with and there is no longer a sun and moon and the NHNE come down from heaven.
3. I think the very, very last day is when satan and those who side with him are destroyed and the NHNE come down.

If you recall, from the beginning I said I think ALL of the systematic eschatologies try to jam some verses where they cannot fit.

The millennium is not the beginning of the last days. The earthly ministry of Christ is. The last days are now and the last day is the climactic second coming. The Old Testament prophecies of “the last days” relate to the period following the Messiah’s first appearance when He introduced the kingdom of God to this earth and opened up the Gospel to the nations. Christ’s earthly ministry ushered in the period of the last days. This is confirmed in different New Testament passages.

Hebrews 1:1-2 declares, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son.”

The last days commenced with the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ of which this passage provides indisputable proof. The Incarnation inaugurated the final era of God’s great plan of salvation for mankind.

Hebrews 9:26 also says, “now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

1 Peter 1:19-20 also confirm that, “Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world … was manifest in these last times for you.”

Peter declared in Acts 2:16-17, alluding to the happenings on the day of Pentecost,this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.”

John twice testified in I John 2:18, “it is the last time (eschatos hōra or last hour).”

2 Timothy 3:1-9 highlights the stark decline that exists before the Second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is certainly not speaking of period following the return of Christ. 2 Timothy 3:1 testifies:in the last days perilous (or hard to bear, troublesome, dangerous, harsh, fierce, savage) times shall come.” Christ’s return brings an end to all this rebellion and wickedness. He comes to ushering eternal righteousness.

2 Peter 3:3-13 speaks of the sceptics who are mocking and scoffing as to the actuality of the Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. It reads: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming?” (v4). If the last days relate to a future millennium, why would they be scoffing at an event that already occurred? They are mocking an impending future event. They are mocking the very idea of the second coming. Manifestly the “last days” occur before the coming of Jesus. It relates to the period we are now in.

James 5:3 also alludes to the last days and places that period before Jesus return. He to shows the last days to be a time of greed and folly. The return of Christ brings an end to such rebellion.

These passages demonstrate that we are in the end times since Christ’s first Advent and that the last days don’t relate to another age after Christ’s appearing, as Premillennialism imagines. The “last days” clearly relate to the intra-Advent period and find their conclusion at the “last day” – Christ’s Coming. I see the “last day” (singular) of the “last days” (plural) as the all-consummating appearing of Christ, which witnesses the total destruction of the world/wicked and a general resurrection / judgement. I believe Scripture shows that the “last days” (plural) terminate at the “last day” (singular) with the raising and judging of both the righteous (John 6:39-44, 54, 11:23-24) and the wicked (John 12:48). In all these references, the wording in the original for “last day” is always the same – eschatee heemara. The Greek word eschatee used here comes from the root word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

Whilst this prophecy was initially given to Judah and Jerusalem, which at the time was the exclusive place of God’s favour on this earth, I do not believe this prophecy is restricted to them. In fact, the detail embodied within this passage proves the contrary and the fact that Isaiah was speaking of a time when the Gentiles would join the Jews in the house of God. I believe that period started with the commission of the disciples nearly 2,000 years ago.

Of the many other passages mentioning “the last days" in Scripture, there is not one "last days" passage that is identified with the period after the second coming. They all relate to the Church in the here-and-now.

What happens on the final day?

John 11:21-27 records: “Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee. Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.”

Christ did not rebuke this understanding of the last day. In fact, it was in complete agreement with what Christ had previously taught in John 6:39-44, 54, where He said, “And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day …No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day ... Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The righteous are resurrected! When does this happen? When Jesus Comes. This is clear and simple (to those who not have a man-made school of thought to defend.

That is not all.

Christ tells us in John 12:48, He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

There you have it! The same day that the righteous are raised is the same day the wicked are judged. Please note there is no mention of some imaginary period of 1,000 years separating this. Not here or in any other passage in Scripture.
 

stunnedbygrace

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The millennium is not the beginning of the last days. The earthly ministry of Christ is. The last days are now

As you already know, I don’t read it and understand it that way. There are too many verses that don’t fit either the right now OR the NHNE. I try to fit them where they fit.
 

marks

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Because I do not think Isaiah 2 can be referring to NHNE since there will be no war but will still be disputes. I do not think there will be disputes on NHNE at all. So I have to fit that verse somewhere else and I can’t fit it in the here and now either because there are still wars.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

I also cannot place Isaiah 65:20 in NHNE because at least some death will still occur. So I see that a jump backwards in time in the prophecy has occurred there.
OT prophecies allowed that Israel might or might not have received their Messiah. God did not offer a kingdom to them, and then prophesy that they wouldn't have it. OT prophecies could have been fulfilled either way. If Jesus had been nationally received as Messiah, the end of the age would have been much sooner.

So when we look at these particular prophecies with these particular questions, we need to keep that in mind.

Much love!
 

WPM

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As you already know, I don’t read it and understand it that way. There are too many verses that don’t fit either the right now OR the NHNE. I try to fit them where they fit.

You reinforce #16 of the Op.

It is the sacred text here that refutes your opinion, not Amils. Your fight is with the various Scriptures texts you sidestepped and failed to acknowledge and address. You should know: personal opinion means nothing.

You render your future millennium everything from "the last days" to "the NHNE," which is frankly ridiculous. This shows how bereft Premils are of supporting Scripture. This is another reason why Bible students should reject Premil.
 

WPM

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OT prophecies allowed that Israel might or might not have received their Messiah. God did not offer a kingdom to them, and then prophesy that they wouldn't have it. OT prophecies could have been fulfilled either way. If Jesus had been nationally received as Messiah, the end of the age would have been much sooner.

So when we look at these particular prophecies with these particular questions, we need to keep that in mind.

Much love!

The plan of God is never thwarted by man. His clock is never delayed. God's plan has been unfolding since the beginning. Christ came on time and accomplished everything asked of Him. He is coming soon to usher in the end. Then we are into eternity.
 

stunnedbygrace

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OT prophecies allowed that Israel might or might not have received their Messiah. God did not offer a kingdom to them, and then prophesy that they wouldn't have it. OT prophecies could have been fulfilled either way. If Jesus had been nationally received as Messiah, the end of the age would have been much sooner.

So when we look at these particular prophecies with these particular questions, we need to keep that in mind.

Much love!

Sorry, don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You reinforce #16 of the Op.

It is the sacred text here that refutes your opinion, not Amils. Your fight is with the various Scriptures texts you sidestepped and failed to acknowledge and address. You should know: personal opinion means nothing.

You render your future millennium everything from "the last days" to "the NHNE," which is frankly ridiculous. This shows how bereft Premils are of supporting Scripture. This is another reason why Bible students should reject Premil.

I don’t understand what you’ve said here. If some prophecy, passage or verse doesn’t fit where men try to jam it, I fit it where it makes sense.
 

WPM

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I don’t understand what you’ve said here. If some prophecy, passage or verse doesn’t fit where men try to jam it, I fit it where it makes sense.

I presented you with various clear, undeniable and watertight passages that prove the last days where ushered in by Christ, are ongoing and will end at the coming of Christ and you rejected that. You failed to address one single passage. It is hard engaging with someone who refuses to accept the text before them, will not discuss it, and will not receive it. Your personal opinion trumps Scripture. Sad!

You also use Revelation 20 as a dumping ground for "the last days" (Isaiah 2 and the NHNE (Isaiah 65) to support your questionable doctrine.

Your posts only serve to reinforce the Op and vindicate Amil.
 

Timtofly

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Never have I said that "it was not Josephus". That's just another of your innumerable insufferable misrepresentations.

"The people of the Church in Jerusalem were commanded by an oracle given by revelation before the war to those in the city who were worthy of it to depart and dwell in one of the cities of Perea which they called Pella. To it those who believed on Christ traveled from Jerusalem, so that when holy men had altogether deserted the royal capital of the Jews and the whole land of Judaea…"
— Eusebius, Church History 3, 5, 3

Your turn to provide a verbatim quote of what you claim is in Josephus' historical record.
This does not say in 66AD. This does not cite Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Where is your proof for this quote:

The Judean Christians fled in 66 AD. That qualifies as a preterist event.

There is no such thing as a "preterist event". Preterism is an eschatological belief system, not a series of events.
 

stunnedbygrace

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You failed to address one single passage

No I didn’t. I went into some detail on Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 2, at the least, and explained exactly why I don’t think parts of them fit the here and now OR the NHNE.
So if a verse doesn’t fit where it’s attempting to be jammed into the now and it doesn’t fit with NHNE, I can’t help seeing what I see.
 

WPM

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No I didn’t. I went into some detail on Isaiah 65 and Isaiah 2, at the least, and explained exactly why I don’t think parts of them fit the here and now OR the NHNE.
So if a verse doesn’t fit where it’s attempting to be jammed into the now and it doesn’t fit with NHNE, I can’t help seeing what I see.

When did you address the passages I presented? Please give me the post.
 

Marty fox

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The OT prophets were talking about the NT area not the so called literal 1000 years.

Nowhere does the OT mention a thousand year time period. Even in Revelation 20 Jesus is not once mentioned as living on the earth for a 1000 years or even that the 1000 years is a time of peace.

The OT prophets were talking about the NT age when the Jews and the gentiles would live as one within the church. Thus the lion, Wolfe and the Leopard (all described as Israel's enemies) would lay with the lamb(Israel) they would finally live together in peace within the church because Jesus made us all one flock.
 

Timtofly

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Matthew 12:22-29 records, Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [Gr. deo] him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!
Then the strongman was no more literal than the dragon.

Thus your association means Satan was not literally curtailed ever. Only those symbols were curtailed, not Satan, himself.

Pre-mill point out that Satan was literally set back during the presence of Christ on earth, and will literally be bound in a future 1,000 years. Both accounts are true and literal.

What Amil do is combine both events and totally disregard any future binding of Satan. The problem is that Amil literally have nothing happening to Satan in the future. It is as if Satan currently does not exist, nor ever will again. Satan "being loosed" is just symbolic of the apostasy of the church against the true church. It is just a spiritual movement among the so called believers. Not even billions of believers, that is just hyperbole for Amil to toss at pre-mill adherents.
 

stunnedbygrace

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When did you address the passages I presented? Please give me the post.

Im not going to go find and repost but you asked how I fit verses you think are concerning the NHNE into the thousand years of REV 20. I explained how and why. If a verse contains any death at all still existing, I don’t think it can fit the NHNE. And if a verse says there is no more war at all, it doesn’t fit here and now. To me, that’s common sense.

If a verse says no more war, I can’t fit it in past or present. And if it additionally says nations will still have disputes, I can’t fit it in NHNE. So where the heck does it go if it doesn’t fit past, present or NHNE? I refuse to jam it somewhere it can’t fit. To me, that’s shoddy work.
 
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marks

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Sorry, don’t understand what you are trying to say here.
There is a certain ambiguity in some of the prophecies that allowed for them to be fulfilled in the first century had Jesus been nationally received, and also allowed for later fulfillment. The "gentile church" was a mystery revealed through Paul, not before that.

So then there are a number of prophecies that may seem like they fit one place, but when you consider the dispensational changes that occurred when Israel fully and finally rejected Jesus (Acts 28), you find they fit a different way.

The NT prophecies provide the detailed arrangement of how they will be fulfilled, as they were given after Israel's rejection.

Clear as mud?

If you are interested let me know.

Much love!
 

covenantee

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This does not say in 66AD. This does not cite Jesus in the Olivet Discourse. Where is your proof for this quote:

As expected, you're unable to provide any evidence to support your claim.

So you've been lying.
 

stunnedbygrace

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There is a certain ambiguity in some of the prophecies that allowed for them to be fulfilled in the first century had Jesus been nationally received, and also allowed for later fulfillment. The "gentile church" was a mystery revealed through Paul, not before that.

So then there are a number of prophecies that may seem like they fit one place, but when you consider the dispensational changes that occurred when Israel fully and finally rejected Jesus (Acts 28), you find they fit a different way.

The NT prophecies provide the detailed arrangement of how they will be fulfilled, as they were given after Israel's rejection.

Clear as mud?

If you are interested let me know.

Much love!

I still don’t understand. Maybe an example or two would help?
 
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