22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Eternally Grateful]

How convenient of you to do that. Why don't you do that with Revelation 11 and 12 as well? The inconsistency in your interpretive approach is obvious and reveals your extreme doctrinal bias.

because rev 11 is the last trumpet and what occures

rev 12 has nothing to do with the last trumpet. but returns to the past to give an overview of what has been what is and what will happen..

Why can't you see this??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yawn

Whatever my friend. Do you want me to do to rev 11 and 12 what I did to rev 19 and 20

Rev 11:
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying:
“We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty,
The One who is and who was and who is to come,
Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come,
And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple. And there were lightnings, noises, thunderings, an earthquake, and great hail
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. 2 Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.

If you can not read the above, an realise that the words (and great hail) was the finality of the 7th trumpet.

And then what followed is going BACK to when christ was born. In other words, IT IS A DIFFERENT EVENT

And if you try to look at rev 19 and 20. And where there is NO logical conclusion at the end of 19. And 20 begins a different event. So you would have to ASSUMe something in rev 20 that does NOT have to be assumed in rev 12

Then I do not know how to help you

No logical conclusion at the end of chapter 19? LOL. I beg to differ.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It talks about the ones previously mentioned in verses 17-18 as being killed and it talks about the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire. That seems like a logical conclusion to Revelation 19. Only someone with doctrinal bias would think otherwise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

because rev 11 is the last trumpet and what occures

rev 12 has nothing to do with the last trumpet. but returns to the past to give an overview of what has been what is and what will happen..

Why can't you see this??

Why can't you see that something similar occurs in Revelation 19 and 20? Because of doctrinal bias perhaps? I think so.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

My point is that a spirit being like Satan can not be physically bound with a chain. To argue that God can do that if He wants is ridiculous.

I don’t think it’s so unreasonable that God has a chain that can bind a spirit being…

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So according to you Jesus reigns over His Father?

No, He reigns at the right hand of His Father. He reigns at the same level as the Father, in other words. But, that changes once He returns, as the following indicates:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This passage indicates that He reigns now and will continue to reign up until His second coming after which comes the end when He delivers the kingdom that He currently reigns over to the Father. Notice in verse 27 that it says the Father has put all things under His feet with the exception of the Father Himself. Then in verse 28 it says "then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him". That is what Revelation 11:15 is talking about. Christ returns at the seventh trumpet at which point He delivers the kingdom to the Father and then the kingdom of the world becomes the kingdom of the Father. And of Christ as well since Christ will still be ruling at that point, but will be subject unto the Father, which is not the case at the moment while He reigns side by side with the Father and all judgment has been committed to Christ, as John 5:22 says.

Paul clearly did not believe in a future earthly kingdom occurring between Christ's second coming and "the end" or else he would have referred to it in that passage. You just don't get that Christ is reigning now, so when He returns, He's not going to receive a kingdom as you imagine, He is going to deliver the kingdom He's already been reigning over to the Father.

Jesus returns the kingdom to teh Father after the 1,000 years when He destorys death in the lake of fire. that is what it says!

Of course. That isn't what we're disagreeing about, though. Our disagreement is that you think that occurs 1,000+ years after the return of Christ and I believe that occurs right after His return.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don’t think it’s so unreasonable that God has a chain that can bind a spirit being…

Then please explain how that works exactly. You understand that spirit beings aren't physical beings that can be physically chained up, right?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Its my opinion you disregard the words of God before your eyes, because you question them at every corner

It’s my opinion that you disregard the words of God before your eyes because you question if dying before a hundred years of age might mean eternal life instead of dying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It’s my opinion that you disregard the words of God before your eyes because you question if dying before a hundred years of age might mean eternal life instead of dying.

Will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Then please explain how that works exactly. You understand that spirit beings aren't physical beings that can be physically chained up, right?

Maybe it’s a spiritual chain?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Why is a sinner there in that place?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe it’s a spiritual chain?

I don't believe there is such a thing. It doesn't make any sense. But, notice that it says that "he lay hold of the dragon" and then proceeds to remind everyone that the dragon is "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". So, it's actually portraying a dragon being chained up, which would obviously be with a physical chain. It's figurative text representing the spiritual binding of Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why is a sinner there in that place?

I would like this to be a two way discussion if you don't mind. Can you please answer my question first and then I will answer yours. Fair enough?

So, again, will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wow! Are you even trying? Of course I'm not saying that Pentecost never happened and you know that. Was the Holy Spirit coming to dwell in people something physical? No, that was spiritual. But, it did literally happen. Can you see how something can be both spiritual and literal at the same time? If you can't, then I don't know what to tell you because it should be obvious.

It was a literal event. That was prophesied. and it came true.

You are apparently equating the word literal with the word physical, but spiritual things can be literal, too. How can you not understand simple concepts like this? It boggles my mind.

I don;t need to spiritualise things to make them come true. When God says it will happen, it will happen.

When he says satan will be bound, shut up and put in prsin. Thats what he means, It may not be a prison as we think of a prison. But it is a prison.

That's ridiculous and not true. Your definition of the word literal is terribly flawed. Something can literally happen without it being a physical event. Good grief, why am I wasting time with this nonsense?

it is obvious you did not read what I said.. I actually praised you if you believed that was true. So you do not believe that??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The reasons God does things are given throughout scripture, but in this case there would be total silence about His reasoning? I completely disagree.

lol

Jesus spoke of many mysteries. Paul called the church a mystery.

Virgin birth.. Who would of that that was a literal event before it happened? Even after it happened. people deny it

Yet it happened..

why?? There are many theories as to why

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I would like this to be a two way discussion if you don't mind. Can you please answer my question first and then I will answer yours. Fair enough?

So, again, will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

His people won’t weep and cry anymore. They won’t weep for the accursed sinner who dies young.
Your turn.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Once again, you have missed the point. I'm not doubting what God is capable of doing. That's not the point at all as I'm sure you know.

No, I do not know. You asked how satan could be bound..

None of us here on this forum would question that. My point is that a spirit being like Satan can not be physically bound with a chain.

No, but he can be bound period..

He is not bound today. he walks, he talks (he is not shut of) and he continues to decieve nations.

To argue that God can do that if He wants is ridiculous. He can't do something unreasonable like that.

He can't bind satan?

That isn't a reflection of a lack of power on His part. It's just not logical or reasonable. Just like God can't create a rock that He can't lift. That's a ridiculous and unreasonable concept and does not indicate that God is lacking at all in power.

I am not the one questioning how Satan can be bound and shut up and unable to decieve nations

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It was a literal event. That was prophesied. and it came true.

Right. Did I say otherwise? But, it was a spiritual event, right? Can something spiritual not also be literal? Of course it can. Why can't you comprehend that?

I don;t need to spiritualise things to make them come true. When God says it will happen, it will happen.

I don't need to do that, either. But, I also recognize that if something is spiritual or if something is described symbolically, that doesn't mean it won't happen. Something doesn't need to be described literally in order to happen. Is this concept too hard for you to understand?

When he says satan will be bound, shut up and put in prsin. Thats what he means, It may not be a prison as we think of a prison. But it is a prison.

it is obvious you did not read what I said.. I actually praised you if you believed that was true. So you do not believe that??

If I believe what exactly?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No logical conclusion at the end of chapter 19? LOL. I beg to differ.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

It talks about the ones previously mentioned in verses 17-18 as being killed and it talks about the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire. That seems like a logical conclusion to Revelation 19. Only someone with doctrinal bias would think otherwise.

lol.. yet chapter 20 fits perfectly well.. Unlike rev 12.. it does not fit in the end with Rev 11.

Even if you do not agree that rev 20 immediately follows. You can not deny it can not immediately follow in context..

 

[Truth7t7]

I would like this to be a two way discussion if you don't mind. Can you please answer my question first and then I will answer yours. Fair enough?

So, again, will no one mourn the death of someone who dies before a hundred years of age at that time?

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

They don't want to acknowledge the simple truth, they desire to remove the New Heaven and Earth, and replace it with a Millennial Kingdom on this earth "Fact"

Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-4 are the same "Parallel" reading describing the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, something you deny before your eyes,simple and easy to understand

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-4KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

His people won’t weep and cry anymore. They won’t weep for the accursed sinner who dies young.
Your turn.

Not so fast. Please read it again.

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It says the child would die a hundred years old, not the sinner. So, you're saying that no one would mourn a 100 year old who dies at that time?