22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[marks]

Why don't you just accept what Paul said about God's promises to Abraham and his seed?

This is an example of that "loaded language". In the parlance of Logical Fallacies, it's a "complex question". You can look up what that is.

Your earthly nation of Israel-centric doctrine contradicts a great deal of New Testament scripture like this.

Do you believe God will keep His promises to the nation of Israel, Jacob's children?

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune;
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

people will bear children too. That’s another one. But then, I’m sure bearing children somehow doesn’t mean bearing children…

 

[marks]

Because Satan is a spirit being and it's talking about physical things like a dragon being chained up in a prison. I've already explained this many times and you still have to ask me "why not?".

I won't ask again, I'll accept that your response is that God lacks the power or ability to fully restrain His creation.

You seem to want to steer this to, No steel chain can put a lock on the devil, and you use that to say, though the devil is bound, still he roams around.

But what I'm saying is this. An angel will bind Satan, and he will be bound. He will be sealed in the abyss, not roaming around.

So why are we talking about steel chains? Or some lovely gold filigree, or whatever you want.

Your argument is that these are spiritual things, spiritual beings, so such restraints aren't as effective as if these were material things, and material beings. And I respond that God is greater than His creation, and there is no reason to think that God is not able to effectively chain and fully restrain His creature, including the devil.

"You are thinking of like a bike chain, but Satan's not a bike, so he still roams about." That's not valid. He'll be chained and sealed into the abyss, and however literal or metaphysical you want to take the words, let the meaning wash over you, take in the imagery, he's locked away, for a 1000 years. Not long leashed, but locked away.

Much love!

 

[jeffweeder]

That was after, not during. Your Scripture quote did not back up your claim of: "while Satan was bound".

Did you comprehend what I was trying to say in the rest of my post?

I was pointing out that billions of people remain outside the camp of the saints during this future millennium.
They had a 1000 years to get right with God, with the Glorified Jesus And the Glorified camp of the saints present before them , but didnt commit.
A complete utter waste of time...which is why a future millennium will never happen...,

Today is the day of salvation through sanctification through the Spirit An FAITH in what we do not see. The appearing of Jesus brings nothing but Judgment for those who did not love truth so as to be saved .

2Thess 2

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Stand Firm
13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14 It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Lets back up to Pauls first Chapter as he lays the foundation for this simple truth...,


5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.

 

[WPM]

Yes, they say this is a "spiritual" binding, so that they can redefine what that binding is. So then then they weaken the force of that binding, allowing Satan to still act as though unbound, roaming about, a "long leash", to allow as though the prophecy were fulfilled now, in this time, as a means of "reconciling" this passage with others, as they interpret within a framework that does not divide the dispensational times of the Bible, and therefore cannot allow an Israel-centric Kingdom reign of Jesus Christ. (sorry about the run-on sentence . . .)

If we understand that God has always intended, and will fulfull His promises to Abraham, and through faith in Christ, His covenant with Israel, then we recognize that Israel has been blinded in part, now, but that at the end of the age will be the "time of Jacob's trouble", and he will be saved through that happening. Meanwhile in this time of partial blinding, God is calling out the body of Christ out of the world.

Israel was to be the light of the world, the city on a hill, to which the gentiles would flow, and come into covenant with God. When Israel refused to receive Jesus, their lamp was removed, and God sent His Apostle directly to the gentiles.

It's this outright rejection of "all things dispensational" that forces people into that position of having to turn things into allegory, parable, symbol, though no such is stated, and no meaning is given. I realize that many people have a difficult time with many aspects of dispensational teaching, just the same, dispensational distinctions do appear in the Scriptures, and unless you take them into account, you are going to come up with the wrong answer.

And when that happens, when we find our view creates a conflict in our understandings of one passage when compared to another, we have a choice, either change our view, or "change the passage". And that's one way to do it. "That obviously doesn't mean what it seems to say!"

It's a cognitive device to protect the mind from self-contradiction. But we need to understand, God means what He says, and He does not contradict Himself. We need to be the ones to change, not change the Scriptures into something they are not.

Much love!

It is so hard to get Premils to address simple questions. I will re-present my queries to you that you avoided.

Imprisonment and chains are constantly used in Scripture to describe spiritual restraint. This is seen in how the Holy Spirit depicts the wicked. For example, Satan is presented in Scripture as imprisoning his followers and refusing to release them from his spiritual prison.

Psalms 79:10-11 declares, “Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed. Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die.”

Were all the heathen literal prisoners? Of course not!

Did this indicate they were immobile? Did this mean they could not kill, steal and destroy? Of course not!

Psalms 102:19-20 says, “For he hath looked down from the height of his sanctuary; from heaven did the LORD behold the earth; To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death.”

Is the Psalmist talking about literal prisoners? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 107:8-16 describes, “Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness. Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron; Because they rebelled against the words of God, and contemned the counsel of the most High: Therefore he brought down their heart with labour; they fell down, and there was none to help. Then they cried unto the LORD in their trouble, and he saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder. Oh that men would praise the LORD for his goodness, and for his wonderful works to the children of men! For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Psalms 146:7-8 declares, “The LORD looseth the prisoners: The LORD openeth the eyes of the blind: the LORD raiseth them that are bowed down: the LORD loveth the righteous.”

Are these literal prisoners or is it describing the wicked?

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Lamentations 3:33-34 says, “For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men. To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Psalms 68:6 prophesied of those in darkness in the Old Testament: “he bringeth out those which are bound with chains: but the rebellious dwell in a dry land.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) curtailed by literal chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 14:12-17 tells us, “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer (helel or shining one), son of the morning (dawn)! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 42:6-7 says, "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

 

[WPM]

Yes, they say this is a "spiritual" binding, so that they can redefine what that binding is. So then then they weaken the force of that binding, allowing Satan to still act as though unbound, roaming about, a "long leash", to allow as though the prophecy were fulfilled now, in this time, as a means of "reconciling" this passage with others, as they interpret within a framework that does not divide the dispensational times of the Bible, and therefore cannot allow an Israel-centric Kingdom reign of Jesus Christ. (sorry about the run-on sentence . . .)

If we understand that God has always intended, and will fulfull His promises to Abraham, and through faith in Christ, His covenant with Israel, then we recognize that Israel has been blinded in part, now, but that at the end of the age will be the "time of Jacob's trouble", and he will be saved through that happening. Meanwhile in this time of partial blinding, God is calling out the body of Christ out of the world.

Israel was to be the light of the world, the city on a hill, to which the gentiles would flow, and come into covenant with God. When Israel refused to receive Jesus, their lamp was removed, and God sent His Apostle directly to the gentiles.

It's this outright rejection of "all things dispensational" that forces people into that position of having to turn things into allegory, parable, symbol, though no such is stated, and no meaning is given. I realize that many people have a difficult time with many aspects of dispensational teaching, just the same, dispensational distinctions do appear in the Scriptures, and unless you take them into account, you are going to come up with the wrong answer.

And when that happens, when we find our view creates a conflict in our understandings of one passage when compared to another, we have a choice, either change our view, or "change the passage". And that's one way to do it. "That obviously doesn't mean what it seems to say!"

It's a cognitive device to protect the mind from self-contradiction. But we need to understand, God means what He says, and He does not contradict Himself. We need to be the ones to change, not change the Scriptures into something they are not.

Much love!

Isaiah 49:8-9 says, “Thus saith the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.”

Does Satan have all his devotees in a literal physical prison? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 58:6-12 asks, “Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.”

Were these chains literally iron? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Isaiah 60:1-3 says, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.”

Were the Gentiles (before the cross) held in a literal prison house? Of course not!

Does that mean all Gentiles will be enlightened? Of course not. It is a general statement like Revelation 20.

Isaiah 61:1 says, “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound.”

Are those that Christ come to set free bound with physical chains? Of course not!

Does this mean the wicked are unable to move freely on this earth, influence others and cause evil? Of course not.

Premillennialists have little difficulty accepting the spiritual reality that the wicked today are bound by spiritual chains of sin and are imprisoned by their own lusts in Satan’s prison and yet are able to freely operate physically on this earth. One wonders why they should then struggle with the concept of the spiritual binding of spiritual beings. Why would they dismiss the fact that the kingdom of darkness has been placed in such chains since the first advent?

It is wrong to believe that Revelation 20 is a literal depiction describing the devil being physically chained, tossed into a physical abyss, and physically sealed so that he cannot deceive the nations anymore and yet still walk about this earth seeking whom he may devour. Amils don’t accept that this is physical language neither do they believe that spirits are physically chained and that they can be restrained by a literal prison. They believe that they are spiritually chained in a spiritual prison.

So, were the unsaved Gentiles literal "prisoners" walking about in this world in literal physical "chains" confined to a literal physical "prison" before the cross?

 

[Truth7t7]

You seem to want to steer this to, No steel chain can put a lock on the devil, and you use that to say, though the devil is bound, still he roams around.

But what I'm saying is this. An angel will bind Satan, and he will be bound. He will be sealed in the abyss, not roaming around.

So why are we talking about steel chains? Or some lovely gold filigree, or whatever you want.

Your argument is that these are spiritual things, spiritual beings, so such restraints aren't as effective as if these were material things, and material beings. And I respond that God is greater than His creation, and there is no reason to think that God is not able to effectively chain and fully restrain His creature, including the devil.

"You are thinking of like a bike chain, but Satan's not a bike, so he still roams about." That's not valid. He'll be chained and sealed into the abyss, and however literal or metaphysical you want to take the words, let the meaning wash over you, take in the imagery, he's locked away, for a 1000 years. Not long leashed, but locked away.

Much love!

You have been shown Satan's binding several times as you remain silent "Why"?

Satan is "Currently" bound from "One Specific Purpose", And One Only?

"Deceive The Nations" To Battle

The Non-Literal 1,000 Years (Revelation) 20:1-6 Are Taking Place Now In The Lords Spiritual, And Will Cease At The Future Second Coming

If A Tribulation Saint Were To Die One Day Before The Second Coming, He Enters Into The Non-Literal 1,000 Year Reign

Many That Promote Millennialism Falsely Teach, Satan Cant Be Presently Bound Because Evil Exist In The World?

Satan Is Presently Bound As Is Clearly Seen In (Revelation) 20:7-8 Below That Interprets (Deceive The Nations) Is To Battle, Not General Evil In The World Presently.

Satan Is Loosed At The End Of The Tribulation When The 6th Vial Is Poured Out As Seen In (Revelation) 16:12, The Deception Is Devils In False Miracles Going Forth To The Kings Of The Earth, To Gather Them To The Final Battle

(Revelation) 20:1-9KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

(Revelation) 16:12-14 & (Revelation) 20:7-8 Same Deception In Gathering The Nations To The Very Same Final Battle In "Parallel" Teachings Of The Same Event

(Revelation) 16:12-17KJV
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[WPM]

I won't ask again, I'll accept that your response is that God lacks the power or ability to fully restrain His creation.

You seem to want to steer this to, No steel chain can put a lock on the devil, and you use that to say, though the devil is bound, still he roams around.

But what I'm saying is this. An angel will bind Satan, and he will be bound. He will be sealed in the abyss, not roaming around.

So why are we talking about steel chains? Or some lovely gold filigree, or whatever you want.

Your argument is that these are spiritual things, spiritual beings, so such restraints aren't as effective as if these were material things, and material beings. And I respond that God is greater than His creation, and there is no reason to think that God is not able to effectively chain and fully restrain His creature, including the devil.

"You are thinking of like a bike chain, but Satan's not a bike, so he still roams about." That's not valid. He'll be chained and sealed into the abyss, and however literal or metaphysical you want to take the words, let the meaning wash over you, take in the imagery, he's locked away, for a 1000 years. Not long leashed, but locked away.

Much love!

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

I struggle to accept that you cannot see the colossal difference between before Christ and His first resurrection and after. Maybe your end-time theology is preventing you from admitting the obvious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your answer is there in the word, if you accept it.

It sounds like you would define life and conditions in the millennial kingdom according to how you see it all in the here and now, however, the point is, it's not going to be like now, not at all!

Consider . . . With Jesus on the throne hands on ruling the world with a rod of iron, there won't be all this nonsense perversions of God's truth, and the real truth will be what will be proclaimed.

The one who dies, righteous according to God, remains with God. We mourn now out of our own feeling of loss, but what when you come to realize that what happens to someone else is about them, not you, and will you mourn when your beloved leaves the limitations of this life, to be more fully with God?

Why assume that you will cry then because you cry now?

Why not? Will people not be human at that time? I'm not understanding your point here at all. It's completely ludicrous to think there would be any time when people wouldn't mourn their loved one's death.

 

[WPM]

Your answer is there in the word, if you accept it.

It sounds like you would define life and conditions in the millennial kingdom according to how you see it all in the here and now, however, the point is, it's not going to be like now, not at all!

Consider . . . With Jesus on the throne hands on ruling the world with a rod of iron, there won't be all this nonsense perversions of God's truth, and the real truth will be what will be proclaimed.

The one who dies, righteous according to God, remains with God. We mourn now out of our own feeling of loss, but what when you come to realize that what happens to someone else is about them, not you, and will you mourn when your beloved leaves the limitations of this life, to be more fully with God?

Why assume that you will cry then because you cry now?

If my wife dies today I will cry for myself but not for her. If I am resting in the joy of my Lord, I won't need to cry for myself.

You say this is a straightforward question, it's what I call a "gotcha" question. And a huge percentage of this thread comes across to me just like that. Clever sounding turns of phrase, but with assumptions built in, and loaded language to steer it, that's why I'm not participating so much.

I've seen the thought processes at work here, I'm just hoping to point to some of the root passages and considerations, hoping to plant a seed or two.

Mostly I just like to challenge people to believe the Word of God in what it says for itself, and that true understanding is seen in the various passages being fully reconciled without changing the meanings of any. Not by denying the words, not by denying their meanings, or their contexts. No convoluted arguments that are rooted in "obviously it can't mean that".

Much love!

In classic Premil theology you have 2 “last days” periods (as per their view of Isaiah 2:4 and Micah 4:3) and 2 “new heavens and new earths” (Isaiah 65 and Revelation 21). Does this not sound totally confusing?

When does your Mark 1 "last days" come into being?

When does your Mark 1 "last days" terminate?

When does your Mark 2 "last days" commence?

When does your Mark 2 "last days" terminate?

What are the characteristics of your Mark 1 "last days" that distinguish it from your Mark 2 "last days"?

When does your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth come into being?

When does your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth terminate?

When does your Mark 2 new heavens and new earth come into being?

When does your Mark 2 new heavens and new earth terminate?

What are the characteristics of your Mark 1 new heavens and new earth that distinguish it from your Mark 2 new heavens and new earth?

Why would Christ go to the bother of coming in all His majesty and power to replace this current corrupt earth with another corrupt earth filled with sin – as Premil demands?

 

[marks]

The victory of the cross was the key to spoiling Satan's power and kingdom. It stripped him of his enormous unchallenged global influence, caused him to be dethroned in untold millions of heathen lives and ensured he was curtailed in countless Gentile villages, towns and cities throughout the world through the faithful preaching of the Word of God.

I struggle to accept that cannot see the colossal difference between before Christ and His first resurrection and after. Maybe your end-time theology is preventing you from admitting the obvious.

However, he won't be chained and sealed into the abyss until after Jesus returns, when He establishes His kingdom to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

Of course everything changed! But that's not a valid argument against accepting the saying of the Scripture.

Your accusations of dishonesty aside . . . which also constitute logical fallacies.

Arguments with fallacies are invalid.

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is an example of that "loaded language". In the parlance of Logical Fallacies, it's a "complex question". You can look up what that is.

Is Galatians 3:16-29 too loaded for you? I don't know what you're talking about. This seems to be your way of avoiding addressing scripture that contradicts your view. You just call it "loaded language" and dismiss it.

Do you believe God will keep His promises to the nation of Israel, Jacob's children?

Which promises are you referring to exactly? Are they different promises than Paul referenced in Galatians 3:16?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

However, he won't be chained and sealed into the abyss until after Jesus returns, when He establishes His kingdom to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

Of course everything changed! But that's not a valid argument against accepting the saying of the Scripture.

Why not? Can you at least address how significantly things changed as it relates to Satan and the world in NT times? How can we have a discussion with you when you're not even willing to talk about things like that?

 

[WPM]

However, he won't be chained and sealed into the abyss until after Jesus returns, when He establishes His kingdom to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

Of course everything changed! But that's not a valid argument against accepting the saying of the Scripture.

Your accusations of dishonesty aside . . . which also constitute logical fallacies.

Arguments with fallacies are invalid.

Much love!

You argue that because you fail to see that the Holy Spirit is talking about a spiritual prison and spiritual chains. This is the same prison that Satan locked the Gentiles in before the light set them free in this new covenant period. Please address my questions above that negate your literalist approach.

You deny the binding of the strong man 2000 years ago because it destroys Premil. Notwithstanding, it is in the Word and can never be torn from it.

 

[Truth7t7]

However, he won't be chained and sealed into the abyss until after Jesus returns, when He establishes His kingdom to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

Of course everything changed! But that's not a valid argument against accepting the saying of the Scripture.

Your accusations of dishonesty aside . . . which also constitute logical fallacies.

Arguments with fallacies are invalid.

Much love!

Jesus Christ Warned His Followers, Concerning Him Being On This Earth In A Millennium (Beware)

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I won't ask again, I'll accept that your response is that God lacks the power or ability to fully restrain His creation.

So, you have to resort to making a false accusation against me instead of addressing my points? That says a lot about you. You know darn well that no Christian believes "that God lacks the power or ability to fully restrain His creation", yet here you are accusing me of believing that.

 

[WPM]

However, he won't be chained and sealed into the abyss until after Jesus returns, when He establishes His kingdom to rule the earth from Jerusalem.

Of course everything changed! But that's not a valid argument against accepting the saying of the Scripture.

Your accusations of dishonesty aside . . . which also constitute logical fallacies.

Arguments with fallacies are invalid.

Much love!

2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Revelation 9:11 gives us more detail confirming that we are looking at the restrained kingdom of darkness: “had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit [Gr. abussos or abyss], whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.”

In piecing the apocalyptic jigsaw together, we find that this dark spiritual dungeon currently has a king over it. This gives us insight into the fact that the abyss must be speaking of a kingdom. Moreover, that kingdom is imprisoned in its own darkness. The fact that there is a king currently ruling tells us that the abyss must contain a kingdom. The word kingdom means 'king with a domain'. Its meaning includes the territory and the people over whom the King rules and exercises sovereign authority. The term also includes the legislation and laws that administrate that kingdom. The word employed in the New Testament for 'kingdom' is the Greek word basileia denoting 'sovereignty, royal power, kingship and dominion'. A kingdom must therefore have (1) a king - a head, (2) a domain to rule over - subjects and territory, (3) a structure of administration - ethics, rules and laws which govern it.

We all know, there are only two spiritual realms in conflict on this earth - the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. Whilst these two kingdoms manifest through physical individuals they are invisible empires. The kingdom being described which "the destroyer" rules over is assuredly not the kingdom of God. The elect angels are never located in the abyss but rather in heavenly splendor. Therefore, we must be speaking of the dark restrained invisible spiritual realm of the devil's kingdom.

Who is this king (or destroyer) that currently reigns over "the bottomless pit" or abyss? We know from the description given of this king that we are looking at an angel. In fact, the king is called: "the angel of the abyss." There is no doubt that Abaddon / Apollyon are referring to someone within the demonic realm. This begs an instant question, who is the king that rules over that dark realm?

Strong's Concordance gives us help, describing Apollyon (623) as "a destroyer (i.e. Satan)." Moreover, when we examine the root Greek word apollumi (Strong's 622) we find it means "to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively." The word is variously translated destroy, die, lose, mar, perish in the King James Version. There seems little doubt that Apollyon is referring to the devil. Time after time in Scripture we see Satan being described in such a destructive way. The name and characteristics of this being seem to identify him with that great enemy of the Church - the devil.

Revelation 9:1-3 shows the abyss occupied now by Satan's minions prior to the last trumpet. It also shows Satan (Abaddon/Apollyon) there as well. Remember Abaddon/Apollyon is a king. This king is obviously head over a kingdom (that is what king's rule over) so what kingdom or domain and subjects and territory does he rule over? This is no natural king but a spiritual king. If it is a spiritual king it must either be Christ or Satan - the only two rulers over the two conflicting spiritual kingdoms. We know that Christ is not on earth since His ascent and definitely not in the abyss. There can surely be no doubt that this is Satan.

 

[WPM]

Why not? Can you at least address how significantly things changed as it relates to Satan and the world in NT times? How can we have a discussion with you when you're not even willing to talk about things like that?

Agreed!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So, you equate the word spiritual with the word physical. Even though a spiritual event like Pentecost literally happened. I'm not going to waste any more time over semantics like this. It's a complete waste of time and results in making it impossible to have a reasonable discussion with you.

Pentecost was a literal event. Not a spiritual event.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Is stunnedbygrace on your ignore list or something? No, babies won't be born in heaven. Why do you ask?

Because I am trying to understand your discussion on Is 65. When do you think those events take place?