"The word was a god"?

[keithr]

no verse says precisely and woodenly, "Jesus was resurrected as a human," but there are several times in the Gospels after His resurrection when He appeared, obviously in human form ~ tangible flesh and blood ~ to many eye-witnesses, as documented by all four of the gospel writers:

And on many of those occasions he would appear and disappear out of and into thin air, or have a different physical appearance so that they didn't recognise him, e.g. :

Luke 24:31 (WEB):

(31) Their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he vanished out of their sight.​

Luke 24:35-36 (WEB):

(35) They related the things that happened along the way, and how he was recognized by them in the breaking of the bread.
(36) As they said these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace be to you.”​

John 20:26 (WEB):

(26) After eight days again his disciples were inside, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came, the doors being locked, and stood in the middle, and said, “Peace be to you.”​

John 21:12 (WEB):

(12) Jesus said to them, “Come and eat breakfast.” None of the disciples dared inquire of him, “Who are you?” knowing that it was the Lord.​

Just as angels can appear as normal men, so Jesus could after his resurrection, and did so to prove that he had been resurrected and was alive again. But angels are spirit beings, and so is Jesus now.

to see Jesus for what he was during His earthly life and after: of man and of God... even the Son of Man and the Son of God... so both human and divine. As the writer of Hebrews says, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8).

God was involved in the creation of Jesus human body, but while he was a man, Jesus was 100% a man, just like us:

Hebrews 10:5

(5) Therefore when he comes into the world, he says, “Sacrifice and offering you didn’t desire, but you prepared a body for me.​

Philippians 2:7-8

(7) but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
(8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, yes, the death of the cross.​

Hebrews 2:9

(9) But we see him who has been made a little lower than the angels, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for everyone.​

Hebrews 2:14

(14) Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in the same way partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,​

Hebrews 2:17

(17) Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people.​

Paul's writing of "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8) was written many years after Jesus' resurrection, and was stating that since his resurrection Jesus no longer changes (just like God, being immortal, never changes).

At the resurrection we ~ our spirits, our true selves in heaven with Jesus until that time ~ will be reunited with our resurrected bodies, our bodies no longer perishable but immortal.

That's not what the Scriptures say. See my next post.

Yes, and He always did, and always will ~ just as the Father always did and always will. Again, Jesus is unchanging. He is eternal, of eternity past and eternity future, just as the Father.

Jesus has only had the divine nature since his resurrection. Previously he was in the form of God, but he was not immortal (or else he could not have died for us) - only God had immortality originally, 1 Timothy 6:16 (WEB):

(16) who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.​

Jesus is unique in that he only has twice had a change of nature. He now has the divine nature and is unchanging, but previously he has changed.

 

[keithr]

You are changing the frame of reference, which is being resurrected as a spirit or in a body.

Well you asked me where it states that Jesus was resurrected with a spirit nature, so I asked where it states that Jesus was resurrected with a human nature. That's not changing the frame of reference. You didn't answer my question, so I'll answer yours.

1 John 3:2 says that after our resurrection "we will be like" Jesus, and able to see him as he is (which probably involves existing in more dimensions than are available to us in the physical universe). So Jesus' resurrection was similar to what ours will be, about which Paul says:

Romans 8:17

(17) And if we are children, then we are heirs; heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; so that if we suffer with Him, we may also be glorified together.​

1 Corinthians 15:50 (WEB):

(50) And I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.​

So after our resurrection we cannot have a flesh and blood nature.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I speak a mystery to you; we shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed;
(52) in a moment, in a glance of an eye, at the last trumpet. For a trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall all be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 (WEB):

(35) But someone will say, “How are the dead raised?” and, “With what kind of body do they come?”

[He is speaking to Christians of the resurrection of Christians only.]​

(36) You foolish one, that which you yourself sow is not made alive unless it dies.
(37) That which you sow, you don’t sow the body that will be, but a bare grain, maybe of wheat, or of some other kind.
(38) But God gives it a body even as it pleased him, and to each seed a body of its own.
(39) All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds.
(40) There are also celestial bodies, and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial differs from that of the terrestrial.
(41) There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory.
(42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown perishable; it is raised imperishable.
(43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
(44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body and there is also a spiritual body.
(45) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(46) However that which is spiritual isn’t first, but that which is natural, then that which is spiritual.
(47) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.
(48) As is the one made of dust, such are those who are also made of dust; and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
(49) As we have borne the image of those made of dust, let’s also bear the image of the heavenly.​

 

[Wrangler]

Well you asked me where it states that Jesus was resurrected with a spirit nature, so I asked where it states that Jesus was resurrected with a human nature. That's not changing the frame of reference.

It totally changes the frame of reference. The reference point is Jesus being raised bodily, as opposed to spirit. The raised with a human nature is a red herring. Have a nice day.

 

[PinSeeker]

...on many of those occasions he would appear and disappear out of and into thin air, or have a different physical appearance so that they didn't recognise him...

God can do anything.

God was involved in the creation of Jesus human body...

I'll accept that, yes, He knits us all ~ our physical bodies, individually, of course ~ together in our mother's womb. Sure. But Christ Jesus was never not existing. All things were made through Christ, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

The physical and the spiritual are not mutually exclusive as you want to think they are, Keith. Yes, as human beings, in this life, if we are born again of the spirit, then we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical. As Paul says, even when we were dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ. There in Ephesians, he's saying that even though we were physically alive beforehand, we have been made spiritually alive somewhere in the course of our earthly, physical lives. So, what he says in 1 Corinthians 15, that "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body... it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual." You and I, as evidenced by the fact that we believe in Jesus and repent of our sin, are spiritually alive now, though formerly we were not, but all the while being very physical beings, and so it will be in the new heaven and new earth. Of course, the difference will be that it will all be perfect ~ there will be no more sin.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Wrangler]

But Christ Jesus was never not existing.

Acts 2:36 God made him both Lord and Messiah.

This explicitly means Jesus is a created Being, made by God. Powerful juxtaposition indeed. Undoubtedly, trinitarians response is to ignore it and replace the topic to some other ambiguous verse, e.g., John 1:1.

 

[PinSeeker]

Acts 2:36 God made him both Lord and Messiah.

This explicitly means Jesus is a created Being, made by God.

The Father, in sending Jesus, gave Jesus the title of Christ ~ His Christ/Messiah ~ and our Lord. And now, having finished His work of redemption through His death on the cross, Jesus has been highly exalted by the Father (Philippians 2) and glorified in His presence with the glory that He possessed with the Father from all eternity (John 17:5). But again, as John says, "(a)ll things were made through (Christ Jesus), and without (Christ Jesus) was not any thing made that was made." (John 1:3).

Grace and peace to you, Wrangler.

 

[Wrangler]

The Father, in sending Jesus, gave Jesus the title of Christ ~ His Christ/Messiah ~ and our Lord.

Friend, the word father is not in the text. The significance of the juxtaposition of God contrasted with Jesus cannot be understated and is shown in many verses. God made him lord and Messiah. God sent him. God raised him from the dead. God told him what to say. Jesus has a God and said his God is the only true God. But you disagree with both.

Consider John 3:16 God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. Reading comprehension questions:

1. Who gave Jesus to the world?
2. Who was given?
3. Who did the giving?
4. Who is the object of the sentence?
5. Who is the subject of the sentence?

 

[PinSeeker]

But you disagree with both.

Well, I wouldn't say "disagree," really, in either case. I absolutely agree that the significance of the juxtaposition of God contrasted with Jesus cannot be understated and is shown in many verses. So, regarding your understanding, I do say ~ not to insult your intelligence in any way; this is not personal ~ the wooden, far-too-small way you understand it in error; you are inadvertently doing exactly what you state cannot be done.

Among many other things, Wrangler, consider God's covenant with Abraham. In making this covenant, God caused Abraham ~ then yet still Abram ~ to fall into a deep sleep after gathering the animals and splitting each of them in two. Then God walked between the animal halves, promising both ways... to fulfill His end (God's end, death) if God failed to uphold His end of the covenant AND to fulfill Abram's end (death) if Abram and his progeny failed to keep his (and the nation's that he would become) end of the covenant. Well, the latter happened, of course, and God, in the Person of Jesus, fulfilled the covenant. John 3:16 is the fulfillment of that covenant (and with His covenant with Abram all the lesser covenants ~ the covenant of life with Adam and then Noah, the covenant of the Law with Moses, and the covenant of a forever King with David). Jesus is the personification and perfect fulfillment one everlasting, all-encompassing Covenant.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[keithr]

It totally changes the frame of reference. The reference point is Jesus being raised bodily, as opposed to spirit.

If the "frame of reference" is "Jesus being raised bodily", how is it changing the "frame of reference" if I ask you for Bible references for where it says Jesus was raised bodily?

 

[Wrangler]

God, in the Person of Jesus,

I see Scripture does not matter to your dogma. G’ bye.

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: God, in the Person of Jesus,

I see Scripture does not matter to your dogma.

LOL! Oh, it... most assuredly does. Your "seeing" seems to be the problem, Wrangler.

G’ bye.

Sure. Grace and peace to you.[/quote]

 

[keithr]

I'll accept that, yes, He knits us all ~ our physical bodies, individually, of course ~ together in our mother's womb. Sure.

God was involved because Jesus did not have a human father.

But Christ Jesus was never not existing.

Please give Bible references to back up that claim. Proverbs 8:22-31, applied to Jesus, tells us of Jesus' beginning (WEB):

(22) “Yahweh possessed me in the beginning of his work, before his deeds of old.
(23) I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, before the earth existed.
(24) When there were no depths, I was born, when there were no springs abounding with water.
(25) Before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was born;
(26) while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the beginning of the dust of the world.
(27) When he established the heavens, I was there; when he set a circle on the surface of the deep,
(28) when he established the clouds above, when the springs of the deep became strong,
(29) when he gave to the sea its boundary, that the waters should not violate his commandment, when he marked out the foundations of the earth;
(30) then I was the craftsman by his side. I was a delight day by day, always rejoicing before him,
(31) rejoicing in his whole world. My delight was with the sons of men.​

All things were made through Christ, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Correct.

The physical and the spiritual are not mutually exclusive as you want to think they are, Keith. Yes, as human beings, in this life, if we are born again of the spirit, then we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical.

Please give Bible references to back up that claim.

As Paul says, even when we were dead in our trespasses, God made us alive together with Christ. There in Ephesians, he's saying that even though we were physically alive beforehand, we have been made spiritually alive somewhere in the course of our earthly, physical lives.

Because of our sins, God considers us to be dead, meaning that none of us have eternal life and will die. Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

That's what Paul means in Ephesians 2 (WEB):

(1) You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,
(2) in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience;
(3) among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
(8) for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(9) not of works, that no one would boast.
(10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before that we would walk in them.​

While we were considered dead by God (but actually still living) God worked in us, saving us by giving us faith in Jesus. God's work is still in progress, and eventually (after our resurrection) we will be made alive (changed to have the immortal divine nature), and to sit with Jesus and God in heavenly places.

 

[PinSeeker]

God was involved because Jesus did not have a human father.

Well, okay, I'll accept that, too. Hey, how many people have ever been born without a human father, Keith? None, right?

PinSeeker: But Christ Jesus was never not existing.​

Please give Bible references to back up that claim.

Well there are so many, but just a couple:

• I know what you think of John 8:58, but there, Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am." Not, I was, which even so would have been stupendous, but I am, as in present tense.
• In speaking to the Father, He calls on the Father to "glorify (Him; Jesus) in (His; the Father's) own presence with the glory that (He; Jesus) I had with (Him, the Father) before the world existed" (John 17:5). When the Bible speaks of anything being "made," it's talking about all of creation, and this is what John is referring to in John 1, that all things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus was not any thing made that was made.

All this has been discussed so many times on this forum, and to say, "Give me some Bible references to back up that claim," as if I can't or won't, is quite ridiculous.

Proverbs 8:22-31, applied to Jesus...

In a certain way, yes, but the subject in Proverbs 8 is wisdom. Wisdom is being personified. God only is wise (Romans 16:27). God has made foolish the wisdom of the world (1 Corinthians 1:20)... chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong (1 Corinthians 1:27)... the wisdom of this world is folly with God (1 Corinthians 3:19). God always had true wisdom, and always will, and likewise, Jesus, Who, in His time on earth was the personification of the wisdom of God (fully God and fully man, the Son of God and the Son of Man), always was and always will be.

(Proverbs 8) tells us of Jesus' beginning...

Again, sort of. But the truth of the matter is there is no beginning to God's wisdom, as if there was some point up to which He was not wise, and the same is true of God's wisdom personified, Jesus, that He Himself had no beginning. His life on earth had a beginning and end point, certainly, but that Jesus existed/exists from eternity past to eternity future is an irrevocable Biblical truth.

PinSeeker: All things were made through Christ, and without Him was not any thing made that was made.​

Correct.

Well sure it's correct. So how is it that even though you agree with what I said ~ that you think Jesus was created? Because that statement ~ which you agreed ~ completely rules the possibility of Jesus having been created out.

PinSeeker: The physical and the spiritual are not mutually exclusive as you want to think they are, Keith. Yes, as human beings, in this life, if we are born again of the spirit, then we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical.​

Please give Bible references to back up that claim.

LOL! Yet again: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:4-5)

Because of our sins, God considers us to be dead, meaning that none of us have eternal life and will die.

No, we are dead, even though physically alive. Consider... see what I did there? ...Genesis 2, keith. God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and warned him that if he did, he would die that very day. Not that He would somehow "consider Him dead," but that he would in fact die. Well, Adam (and Eve) did die that very day, though physically still alive. And from that point, every human being born into the world is dead; this is the natural human condition.

... Ephesians 2... While we were considered dead by God...

This is not what Scripture says, keith. Paul says we were ~ were; not "considered so" ~ dead in our sin. You're changing Scripture to fit your narrative. I suggest you turn that around.

God's work is still in progress...

Well, yes, we are being sanctified, but this is because we have been born again of the Spirit. But as Paul says there in Ephesians 2, we have been made alive together with Christ, and Peter in 1 Peter 1 says we have been caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

...eventually (after our resurrection) we will be made alive (changed to have the immortal divine nature)...

Physically. But spiritually, we are already born again.

...to sit with Jesus and God in heavenly places.

Nope, this is true now. We are in Christ.

<SIGH...> Round and round and round we go...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[keithr]

Well, okay, I'll accept that, too. Hey, how many people have ever been born without a human father, Keith? None, right?

No! The answer is one - Jesus!

• I know what you think of John 8:58, but there, Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I am." Not, I was, which even so would have been stupendous, but I am, as in present tense.

That doesn't say that Jesus was never not in existence, it just says he was in existence before Abraham was born.

• In speaking to the Father, He calls on the Father to "glorify (Him; Jesus) in (His; the Father's) own presence with the glory that (He; Jesus) I had with (Him, the Father) before the world existed" (John 17:5). When the Bible speaks of anything being "made," it's talking about all of creation, and this is what John is referring to in John 1, that all things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus was not any thing made that was made.

Again, that doesn't say that Jesus was never not in existence, it just says he was in existence before the creation of the Earth. So I'm afraid you have not come up with any Bible verses that back up your claim that Jesus was never not existing. The apostle John tells us that Jesus was God's only begotten son - if Jesus was begotten by God then he must not have existed before he was begotten and before he became God's son.

All this has been discussed so many times on this forum, and to say, "Give me some Bible references to back up that claim," as if I can't or won't, is quite ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous. Not everyone reading these discussions have read all of your's and others' previous posts. If you want to convince anybody that what you are saying is the correct interpretation of God's word, then you should give Bible references along with your interpretations. Otherwise you won't convince anybody who has a sound mind.

1 Peter 3:15 (WEB):

(15) But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and always be ready to give an answer to everyone who asks you a reason concerning the hope that is in you, with humility and fear:​

2 Timothy 4:2 (WEB):

(2) preach the word; be urgent in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with all patience and teaching.​

2 Timothy 3:16 (WEB):

(16) Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness,​

Acts 17:10-12 (WEB):

(10) The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Beroea. When they arrived, they went into the Jewish synagogue.
(11) Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
(12) Many of them therefore believed; also of the prominent Greek women, and not a few men.​

Again, sort of. But the truth of the matter is there is no beginning to God's wisdom, as if there was some point up to which He was not wise, and the same is true of God's wisdom personified, Jesus, that He Himself had no beginning. His life on earth had a beginning and end point, certainly, but that Jesus existed/exists from eternity past to eternity future is an irrevocable Biblical truth.

Why would God need to put His wisdom into another person before creating the universe? Was God Himself not suitable for His wisdom?

Well sure it's correct. So how is it that even though you agree with what I said ~ that you think Jesus was created? Because that statement ~ which you agreed ~ completely rules the possibility of Jesus having been created out.

I think that Jesus was begotten/created and is therefore not God, and God existed before Jesus - therefore Jesus could not have always existed. All things being created through Jesus does mean that Jesus had to have always existed (no more than you building a house means that you must have always existed).

LOL! Yet again: But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (Ephesians 2:4-5)

Again the Bible verses you've quoted do not support your claim that "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical".

God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and warned him that if he did, he would die that very day. Not that He would somehow "consider Him dead," but that he would in fact die. Well, Adam (and Eve) did die that very day, though physically still alive.

A literal translation of Genesis 2:17 (and the KJV footnote) says "dying thou dost die", i.e. a better translation would be like the TLV which says "you most assuredly will die!" The day that they ate the fruit was the day that they became physically imperfect and started dying. They became dead in their sins - alive but dying, and eventually will die. That is why God considers them dead and later sent His only begotten Son to be their saviour.

This is not what Scripture says, keith. Paul says we were ~ were; not "considered so" ~ dead in our sin. You're changing Scripture to fit your narrative. I suggest you turn that around.

I used the word 'considered' to help explain Paul's intended meaning - I wasn't changing Scripture, I quoted it correctly.

Well, yes, we are being sanctified, but this is because we have been born again of the Spirit. But as Paul says there in Ephesians 2, we have been made alive together with Christ, and Peter in 1 Peter 1 says we have been caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

We have been begotten again, not born. We are born again when we are resurrected. 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

Or LSV:

(3) Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness begot us again to a living hope, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ out of the dead,​

We have the hope of eternal/immortal life because of the resurrection of Jesus, and because God begat us to be born again in the resurrection as His adopted sons, to have a similar divine nature as Jesus now has.

Physically. But spiritually, we are already born again.

John 3:8 (WEB):

(8) The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear its sound, but don’t know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”​

So if we have been born of the spirit then we would be invisble to people. Are you like Jesus described? If not, then you have not yet been born of the Spirit.

Nope, this is true now. We are in Christ.

So you think that you are sitting in the heavenly throne room right now? What does it look and feel like?

 

[PinSeeker]

PinSeeker: Hey, how many people have ever been born without a human father, Keith? None, right?​

No! The answer is one - Jesus!

LOL! Yeah, I meant how many other than Jesus. Obviously. My goodness.

It is not ridiculous.

Yeah, it is. To keep asking over and over again and to get the same answers over and over again and then then to deny them over and over again... it's quite ridiculous. And you're doing it yet again even now. It's ridiculous.

If you want to convince anybody that what you are saying is the correct interpretation of God's word, then you should give Bible references along with your interpretations.

LOL! As if I don't... Wow.

Otherwise you won't convince anybody who has a sound mind.

The deciding factor on that is a hard heart. And solving that problem is the business of the Holy Spirit. If that's God's will, of course.

Why would God need to put His wisdom into another person before creating the universe? Was God Himself not suitable for His wisdom?

I think that Jesus was begotten/created and is therefore not God, and God existed before Jesus - therefore Jesus could not have always existed.

Yeah, I know. Bless your heart. Paul was right, of course, when he wrote that the time is coming (and is now here, of course) when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths (2 Timothy 4:3-4). So it is.

...the Bible verses you've quoted do not support your claim that "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical".

So wait, you said above that I should give Bible references along with my interpretations, and here you're acknowledging that I do. I mean, do you trip over yourself like this all the time on purpose, Keith?

(Genesis 2:17) a better translation would be like the TLV which says "you most assuredly will die!" The day that they ate the fruit was the day that they became physically imperfect and started dying.

Well the TLV is not a literal translation ~ which doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means it's more focused on conveying the thought behind the text rather than just merely the text. The method of translation is different in the TLV from others like the ESV and the NASB. But even so, the TLV says, "For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die," which is accurate. The text is not "when you eat from it, you will begin dying," Keith, it is ~ read it again ~ "when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die" (emphasis mine). Surely you see how you're trying oh, so hard to change the text into something other than it is. Surely. Or at least see now that it is very different what what you suppose. Yeah, it's a heart issue.

They became dead in their sins...

Sure! Agreed. You're contradicting yourself again, here, Keith.

...alive but dying, and eventually will die. That is why God considers them dead and later sent His only begotten Son to be their saviour.

"It is but it's not, but it is, but it's not. I mean, it is, but really, it's not..." On and on you go, you see, Keith? No, it is what it is. My goodness.

I used the word 'considered' to help explain Paul's intended meaning - I wasn't changing Scripture, I quoted it correctly.

YOU used 'considered,' Keith. Every Bible translation there is says "we were dead in our sin/trespasses," or something intimately close to that; none say anything even remotely along the lines of our being "considered dead" by God or Paul. What you did was put words in Paul's (even God's) mouth. My advice would be to stop it, but hey, you're your own man.

We have been begotten again, not born. We are born again when we are resurrected.

Yet another contradiction ~ of yourself. Yes, we HAVE BEEN (past tense; already happened) BEGOTTEN (brought into existence by the process of reproduction) ~ even though already having been physically born, ergo, born again. Wow.

So if we have been born of the spirit then we would be invisible to people.

LOL! The ignorance is strong in this one...

Okay, Keith, that's enough, I think. So long, friend. Grace and peace to you.

 

[keithr]

LOL! Yeah, I meant how many other than Jesus. Obviously. My goodness.

Correction - the answer is three. Jesus, Adam and Eve.

Yeah, it is. To keep asking over and over again and to get the same answers over and over again and then then to deny them over and over again... it's quite ridiculous. And you're doing it yet again even now. It's ridiculous.

What you said was ridiculous, and what I said was not ridiculous, was to give Bible references to back up or confirm what you claim. Hence I said, "If you want to convince anybody that what you are saying is the correct interpretation of God's word, then you should give Bible references along with your interpretations. Otherwise you won't convince anybody who has a sound mind".

LOL! As if I don't... Wow.

Well you didn't, which is why I asked for you to give Bible references to back up your claim that Jesus "was never not existing", because I am not aware of any Scripture verses that indicate that.

The deciding factor on that is a hard heart. And solving that problem is the business of the Holy Spirit. If that's God's will, of course.

That's no reason to not to try and convince people of the truth using the Scriptures. As I quoted before, "Every Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16 WEB), but it's not profitable if you don't make use of the Scriptures!

Paul was right, of course, when he wrote that the time is coming (and is now here, of course) when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Which is why I was asking for Scripture references. We need sound teaching, not just stating what you believe with no Scripture to confirm what you are claiming.

So wait, you said above that I should give Bible references along with my interpretations, and here you're acknowledging that I do. I mean, do you trip over yourself like this all the time on purpose, Keith?

No. You didn't give a reference, then when I asked for one you came up with "made us alive together with Christ", but that does not support your claim. How do you interpret that to mean "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical"?

Well the TLV is not a literal translation ~ which doesn't mean it's wrong, it just means it's more focused on conveying the thought behind the text rather than just merely the text. The method of translation is different in the TLV from others like the ESV and the NASB. But even so, the TLV says, "For when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die," which is accurate. The text is not "when you eat from it, you will begin dying," Keith, it is ~ read it again ~ "when you eat from it, you most assuredly will die" (emphasis mine). Surely you see how you're trying oh, so hard to change the text into something other than it is. Surely. Or at least see now that it is very different what what you suppose. Yeah, it's a heart issue.

As I mentioned, literal translations say "dying thou dost die" (YLT) or "dying you die" (LSV), and the KJV footnote says that the Hebrew says "dying thou shalt die". I'm not the one trying to change the text, I was just pointing out to you what the original text actually says. I was using Scripture to correct your interpretation, which was "Well, Adam (and Eve) did die that very day, though physically still alive". They did not die that day, they just began to die that very day.

"It is but it's not, but it is, but it's not. I mean, it is, but really, it's not..." On and on you go, you see, Keith? No, it is what it is. My goodness.

You sound confused! It's simple to understand - the day that they ate of the fruit they began to die. They were physically perfect before that, so it took a long time for them to slowly grow old and die (by the grace of God), so that Adam was 930 years old when he eventually died (Genesis 5:5).

YOU used 'considered,' Keith. Every Bible translation there is says "we were dead in our sin/trespasses," or something intimately close to that; none say anything even remotely along the lines of our being "considered dead" by God or Paul. What you did was put words in Paul's (even God's) mouth. My advice would be to stop it, but hey, you're your own man.

Good grief! I was explaining what Paul meant by "dead in trespasses and sins". I never claimed the original text used the word 'considered'.

Okay, Keith, that's enough, I think.

Yes, I agree. I tried to correct your misunderstanding, but you obviously don't get it. All I have left to say is, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (WEB):

(21) Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.​

 

[PinSeeker]

What you said was ridiculous...

In your opinion. Understood.

...and what I said was not ridiculous, was to give Bible references to back up or confirm what you claim...

Yes, it was ridiculous, because have, over and over and over again. You're trying to rewrite history. The record is clear and in writing above. The claim I didn't give Bible references is ridiculous.

...I asked for you to give Bible references to back up your claim that Jesus "was never not existing"

And I gave some, although, as I said, not an exhaustive list, but I did. You just don't accept them. Which we both knew would be the case.

...I am not aware of any Scripture verses that indicate that.

You're unaware of a lot of things, Keith.

That's no reason to not to try and convince people of the truth using the Scriptures.

I didn't insinuate that, Keith. But ultimately speaking, it's not up to us to convince.

We need sound teaching...

Ah yes, I agree, but again, as Paul wrote, "the time is coming (and is now here, of course) when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths" (2 Timothy 4:3-4). So it is.

...not just stating what you believe with no Scripture to confirm what you are claiming.

As I said, the record is clear. And clearly not what you are claiming.

You didn't give a reference...

I did. Over and over and over again. Denial is not just a river in Egypt!

...then when I asked for one you came up with "made us alive together with Christ"...

Right, which is a Bible reference, which I cited (both Ephesians 2:5 and 1 Peter 1:3)... which, debunks your claim, and you're here again refuting even yourself and your own false claim...

...but that does not support your claim.

In... your opinion.

How do you interpret that to mean "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical"?

Well... I can't believe I'm actually being asked to explain such a simple thing... Peter is clearly saying that though we are physically alive, we are made alive by the Spirit ~ born again of the Spirit, which Jesus says directly to Nicodemus in John 3:8 ~ "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." To give you a little more free information... ... Peter is referring directly to Ezekiel 11:19-20 ("I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God.") and Ezekiel 36:26-28 ("I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.").

What was it you were saying about me not giving Bible references, Keith? LOL!

I'm not the one trying to change the text...

You very clearly are.

They did not die that day, they just began to die that very day.

So you're changing Genesis 2:17 from what it clearly is to something it clearly is not. God said, in Genesis 2:17 (and I quote)...

• KJV – “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”
• NKJV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”
• NIV – “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die”
• ESV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”
• CSB – “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die”
• NASB20 – “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die”
• NASB95 – “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die”
• LSB – “but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat from it; for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die”
• NET – “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will surely die”
• RSV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die”
• ASV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”
• YLT – “and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die”
• DBY – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt certainly die”
• WEB – “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest of it thou shalt surely die”
• HNV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shall not eat of it: for in the day that you eat of it you will surely die”

You sound confused! It's simple to understand - the day that they ate of the fruit they began to die.

LOL! See above. They died. That very day. Just as God said they did.

They were physically perfect before that, so it took a long time for them to slowly grow old and die (by the grace of God), so that Adam was 930 years old when he eventually died (Genesis 5:5).

Yes. so God, Keith, was obviously not talking about physical death when He told Adam what He told him in Genesis 2:17. Now, in Genesis 3, once Adam and Eve had eaten the forbidden fruit ~ and thus had died, just as God said they would ~ He banished them from Eden and the Tree of Life, dooming them to physical death also. So it is for all of humanity. Yes, they were made to be in a physically degenerative state, for sure. But this is totally avoiding and/or missing God's warning to Adam altogether... and even making Him out to be either mistaken (LOL) or a liar (perish the thought).

I was explaining what Paul meant by "dead in trespasses and sins"...

Oh yes, and very wrongly. You do that a lot. And over and over again... Even when corrected... over and over again.

I never claimed the original text used the word 'considered'.

I didn't say you did, but that's what you were clearly and wrongly imposing upon the text.

I tried to correct your misunderstanding...

LOL!

...you obviously don't get it.

I certainly do get your opinion, but buying it is totally out of the question.

All I have left to say is, 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (WEB): (21) Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good.[/QUOTE]
Right, well, obviously, the "test" you're applying is the problem. Or I guess the tester... LOL!

We can go on with this, but I'd stop if I were you. Because you're kinda like...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[keithr]

In your opinion. Understood.

All this bickering just because I simply asked, "Please give Bible references to back up that claim" (post #652). Please let's stop the bickering!

Yes, it was ridiculous, because have, over and over and over again. You're trying to rewrite history. The record is clear and in writing above.

Yep, it is!

The claim I didn't give Bible references is ridiculous.

And yet I had to ask for Bible references.

And I gave some, although, as I said, not an exhaustive list, but I did. You just don't accept them. Which we both knew would be the case.

Well I asked for references that would back up your claim, but the references I managed to prise out of you didn't back up your claim!

You're unaware of a lot of things, Keith.

Thank you for stating the obvious.

Right, which is a Bible reference, which I cited (both Ephesians 2:5 and 1 Peter 1:3)... which, debunks your claim,

It's got nothing to do with my claim; I asked you for references to back up your claim that "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical". Those verses don't back that up:

Ephesians 2:5 (WEB):

(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),​

That means that even while we were reckoned by God to be dead (though not actually dead, but we did not have eternal life) God acted to ensure that we could have eternal life, immortal life along with Jesus (though not actually immortal yet), which he did by giving us the gift of faith in Jesus.

1 Peter 1:3 (KJV):

(3) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively [living] hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,​

That means that God resurrecting Jesus from death gives us the hope of eternal life, which God has begotten us again to so that one day we can be born with an immortal nature, similar to Jesus.

Neither of the above verses mean that we are not only physically alive but we have been made spiritually alive too.

Well... I can't believe I'm actually being asked to explain such a simple thing... Peter is clearly saying that though we are physically alive, we are made alive by the Spirit

Eh? It was Paul who wrote "made us alive", not Peter.

So you're changing Genesis 2:17 from what it clearly is to something it clearly is not. God said, in Genesis 2:17 (and I quote)...

• KJV – “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”
• NKJV – “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die”
• NIV – “but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die”
• <...>

As I said, literal translations translate the Hebrew as "dying you will die", which the KJV footnote also acknowledges is the precise translation. Just because many translators copied each other doesn't mean that thay all got it correct.

LOL! See above. They died. That very day. Just as God said they did.

No they didn't! Adam lived to be 930 years old.

Yes. so God, Keith, was obviously not talking about physical death when He told Adam what He told him in Genesis 2:17.

Yes he was. God says what He means, and means what He says.

Yes, they were made to be in a physically degenerative state, for sure. But this is totally avoiding and/or missing God's warning to Adam altogether... and even making Him out to be either mistaken (LOL) or a liar (perish the thought).

God is not a liar. Satan is. What did Satan say to Eve? Answer - "You won’t really die", Genesis 3:4. They did die, so Satan was the liar, God told the truth. The evidence stairs you in the face - they didn't die in the day that they ate the fruit. That should make you question the accuracy of the translation, and guess what - it is inaccurate, but just close enough to deceive and confuse; hmm, I wonder who could have influenced the translators to do that?

I didn't say you did, but that's what you were clearly and wrongly imposing upon the text.

So that's why I used the word 'reckoned' instead of 'considered' above. Did you notice that?

Right, well, obviously, the "test" you're applying is the problem. Or I guess the tester... LOL!

Perhaps you'll understand the KJV rendition better - 1 Thessalonians 5:21 (KJV):

(21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

We can go on with this, but I'd stop if I were you. Because you're kinda like...

Let's stop. I've explained my understanding of the Scriptures and you've given yours. One or both of us must be wrong. I'm happy that I've proved my understanding is correct, based on Scripture (allowing for what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 13:12). It's up to you to do the same.

 

[PinSeeker]

All this bickering just because I simply asked, "Please give Bible references to back up that claim" (post #652). Please let's stop the bickering.

Well, you didn't ask, but merely stated, "give Bible references." l don't care whether it was an ask or any kind of imperative demand, but the fact that you even said it at all is ridiculous because I do it in spades with my every post.

Beyond that, as for "bickering," you can stop it by just not saying any more stupid stuff.

I asked for references that would back up your claim, but the references I managed to prise out of you didn't back up your claim!

Well, thanks for putting your tail between your legs and admitting that I did give Scripture references. Good on ya... But your opinion that they "didn't back up" my "claim" is merely your opinion, and is... wrong. So, bad on ya for that...

PinSeeker: You're unaware of a lot of things, Keith.

Thank you for stating the obvious.

Oh. Wow. Okay. You're welcome. We can leave it at that, I think. Not to make you feel bad or anything, but, well, yeah, we'll just leave it at that.

Comments:

Regarding Ephesians 2:5, yes, we were dead, as Paul says, but we were also physically alive. So from this, we should be able to see very clearly that death in the Biblical spiritual sense is something quite different than the physical death that we will all experience at the end of our earthly lives. There are a lot of dead folks walking around with us right now; some will remain that way, and some will not. And that depends on whether God calls them or not and gives them new birth by His Spirit (which is exactly what Paul is talking about here in Ephesians 2... and Romans 9, and his other letters, too) ~ removes their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh, puts His Spirit within them and causes them to walk in His statutes, as Ezekiel (11:19-20; 36:26-28) says.

Closely related to this, we can see clearly from Revelation 20 that there are two resurrections (a first and a second), and there are two deaths (also a first and a second). We can talk about this, but the point I'm making is that physical life and death and spiritual life and death are two different ~ but not mutually exclusive ~ things.

Regarding 1 Peter 1:3 and "begotten us," it is in the exact same vein as "born," and even in the version that you quote, it says "begotten us again," Keith. So you have to wrestle at least somewhat that we were begotten once, but now are begotten again. And in this, you seem to be under the same lack of understanding as the above mentioned Nicodemus (“How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”) Yes, I agree that, as you put it, "God resurrecting Jesus from death gives us the hope of eternal life," but that's not the whole picture. You're understanding of being begotten is... very strange, and apparently very wrong.

It was Paul who wrote "made us alive", not Peter.

Right, but Peter, in the exact same vein, said "God... (a)ccording to His great mercy... has caused us to be born again." There is no difference in what they're saying; they're talking about the same thing. To think otherwise would be quite ridiculous.

...God resurrecting Jesus from death gives us the hope of eternal life, which God has begotten us again to so that one day we can be born with an immortal nature, similar to Jesus.

Here, you seem to be confusing our having been begotten of God with our being given assurance (which is what faith is; Hebrews 11:1) by God. So yeah, God's resurrecting Jesus from death gives us the hope of eternal life, which God has ASSURED US OF and that one day we WILL be resurrected to eternal life and sinful no longer and thus like Jesus (Who never sinned and is the way, the truth, and the life).

Neither of the above verses mean that we are not only physically alive but we have been made spiritually alive too.

Well, yes they do, along with Ezekiel 11 and 36, Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus in John 3, and many others. But again, you're welcome to your opinion; it's not my job to ~ using the words of the writer of Hebrews ~ assure or convict you; that would be God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, respectively.

God says what He means, and means what He says.

Amen!

God is not a liar.

Right, but you're inadvertently making Him out to be regarding what He told Adam in Genesis 2:17, which is exactly what I said (and maybe other places, too).

Regarding the King James Version (KJV), Keith, I would get out of it if I were you. Not that it's "bad," or heretical, or even wrong; it's not. But because of the antiquated language, it's not hard to get poor understandings from it because of it's lack of clarity in places to our 21st century ears. English has just, well, evolved quite a bit in the last 400 years. The ESV (English Standard Version) is very good, and the NASB (New American Standard Bible). There are others, but yeah, the KJV is just hard to understand correctly in places.

One or both of us must be wrong. I'm happy that I've proved my understanding is correct, based on Scripture...

LOL! Yeah, "Oh, we may both be wrong, but I'm right!" LOL!

I asked you for references to back up your claim that "we are made spiritually alive, rather than merely physical". Those verses don't back that up...

In your opinion. Yes, I'm well aware of your "thoughts," as you've repeated them several times now. They're wrong; you're mistaken. And you can call that my opinion if you want; I'm perfectly fine with that.

Let's stop.

Keith, in poker terms, I'm all in on that. Yeah so, maybe we can just agree to disagree, "stop the bickering" (as you said), and part in friendship.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Pierac]

Yes, I believe what Peter said.


Yes, I do.


You're wrong. I do believe what Jesus said. He was a man - he had been from his human birth right up until his death. Since his resurrection he has not been a man; he is now a spirit being having the same divine nature as God. What I started discussing (which you keep trying to move away from!) is "did Jesus exist before his human birth?"


John Darby's Bible Notes says:

A particular interpretation has, by some, been given to the word "aion" translated "worlds;" but it is certain that the word is used by the LXX-Septuagint (that is, in Hellenistic or scriptural Greek) for the physical worlds.​

Either way, if God made the ages through Jesus then Jesus must have existed from the beginning, because ages includes all of the ages up until the present aswell as the ages to come. Young's Literal Translation says, "through whom also He did make the ages", which effectively means 'all that, in successive periods of time, has come to pass, has come to pass through him'.

I'm confused...You think Jesus was a man.... but now no-longer a man? I undersatnd your confusion given the traditions of men...

keithr... believe the other Paul when He wrote.... Many many years after Jesus rose from the dead...

1Co 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.

Act 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Now keithr... tell us how the God Jesus obtained something more excellent that he did not already have???

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.