Harmonized Seals, Trumpets, Bowls

[David Boyer]

Has anyone else harmonized the seals, trumps and bowls?

The idea is there is only one period of tribulation but because the world is so large it is seen from 3 different vantage points. (my opinion... Americas, Israel and allies, Enemies of Israel)

How many times is there an earthquake like none other seen before of after? 3 times? or is the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl describing the same event?

Also we like to say we will see the endtimes happen because it takes time. The scroll can't be opened even a little until all 7 seals are removed. It can happen all at once. All the trumpets can blow in quick succession and the effects felt for the next 7 years. Likewise the bowl judgements.

Discussion Welcome. Disagree with biblical references.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Has anyone else harmonized the seals, trumps and bowls?

The idea is there is only one period of tribulation but because the world is so large it is seen from 3 different vantage points. (my opinion... Americas, Israel and allies, Enemies of Israel)

How many times is there an earthquake like none other seen before of after? 3 times? or is the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl describing the same event?

Also we like to say we will see the endtimes happen because it takes time. The scroll can't be opened even a little until all 7 seals are removed. It can happen all at once. All the trumpets can blow in quick succession and the effects felt for the next 7 years. Likewise the bowl judgements.

Discussion Welcome. Disagree with biblical references.

How many earthquakes as many as are larger than one that preceded it.

but you cannot harmonize the 3 sets of judgments they are too incongruous to do that. We American believers have a too lofty of an opinion of America in the end times. We are simply another gentile nation that will fall sway to the deceptions of the antichrist in the tribulation times.

 

[David Boyer]

How many earthquakes as many as are larger than one that preceded it.

but you cannot harmonize the 3 sets of judgments they are too incongruous to do that. We American believers have a too lofty of an opinion of America in the end times. We are simply another gentile nation that will fall sway to the deceptions of the antichrist in the tribulation times.

Harmonizing judgements is quite simple. Try it. And escalating earthquakes go against the text.

Remember to bring scriptural references if you disagree, otherwise I will just write you off as "too lazy to do the homework".

ps I am not an American believer. And I said Americas not America. You haven't asked me why I say Americas are the seals... you jumped to a conclusion that wasn't based on anything I said.

pps the judgements line up if you consider different geographies for the prophecies.

Ask questions before passing judgement, please.

 

[Enoch111]

How many times is there an earthquake like none other seen before of after? 3 times? or is the 6th seal, 7th trumpet and 7th bowl describing the same event?

Why are you trying to MISLEAD people in order to support your theory? Revelation 16:18 is the only time that the earthquake is described as "such as was not seen since men were upon the earth". Rev 6:12 and Rev 11:13 speak of "a great earthquake". Rev 8:5 and Rev 11:19 speak of "an earthquake".

So if you want to correctly "harmonize" Revelation, here is how it is presented:
SEALS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (trumpets within 7th seal)
TRUMPETS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (vials within 7th trumpet)
VIALS (BOWLS) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

 

[David Boyer]

Why are you trying to MISLEAD people in order to support your theory? Revelation 16:18 is the only time that the earthquake is described as "such as was not seen since men were upon the earth". Rev 6:12 and Rev 11:13 speak of "a great earthquake". Rev 8:5 and Rev 11:19 speak of "an earthquake".

So if you want to correctly "harmonize" Revelation, here is how it is presented:
SEALS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (trumpets within 7th seal)
TRUMPETS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (vials within 7th trumpet)
VIALS (BOWLS) 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

What wording says Within 7th Seal or trumpet? Chapter + Verse please.
If there is silence for the 7th Seal how can you have Trumpets? Trumpets are not silent.

I'm not misleading, just reading.

Harmony.
T2,V2
T3,V3
T4,V5
S6,T7,V7

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Harmonizing judgements is quite simple. Try it. And escalating earthquakes go against the text.

Remember to bring scriptural references if you disagree, otherwise I will just write you off as "too lazy to do the homework".

ps I am not an American believer. And I said Americas not America. You haven't asked me why I say Americas are the seals... you jumped to a conclusion that wasn't based on anything I said.

pps the judgements line up if you consider different geographies for the prophecies.

Ask questions before passing judgement, please.

Well then if I am to bring biblical arguments, why don't you show your "biblical defense" for confessing that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all the same judgments from a different perspective.

How can I rebut you rposition if you do not make it biblically or attempt to make it biblically known.

But let us look at just the first of each series of judgments.

Seal 1- the rider on the white horse- aka the antichrist.

Revelation 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Trumpet one:-- Rev. 8 These angels are not revealed and given turmpets until the seventh seal is opened! King of hard to be the same judgments when you have to wait until the last seal is opened to be revealed.

Revelation 8:7
King James Version

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


How does this and the rider on a white horse going conquering narmonize????

Seventh vial or bowl:

Revelation 15
King James Version

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Well excluding the seals and trumpets which you say are also the bowls, what other plagues was John inspired to write about?

Revelation 16:2
King James Version

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

How does a noisome and grievous sore falling just on those who had the mark and worshipped the image of th eantichrist harmonize with the ridfer on a white horse and 1/3 of all vegetation being burned up?

By saying this is the same as the first seal and first trumpet you are also saying that the mark of the beast and the image found in REv. 13 was established before the seals began. People cannot be plagued with a sore unless the mark and image had been established and people starting taking the mark. al l that takes time on earth!

 

[David Boyer]

Well then if I am to bring biblical arguments, why don't you show your "biblical defense" for confessing that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all the same judgments from a different perspective.

How can I rebut you rposition if you do not make it biblically or attempt to make it biblically known.

But let us look at just the first of each series of judgments.

Seal 1- the rider on the white horse- aka the antichrist.

Revelation 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Trumpet one:-- Rev. 8 These angels are not revealed and given turmpets until the seventh seal is opened! King of hard to be the same judgments when you have to wait until the last seal is opened to be revealed.

Revelation 8:7
King James Version

7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.


How does this and the rider on a white horse going conquering narmonize????

Seventh vial or bowl:

Revelation 15
King James Version

15 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.


Well excluding the seals and trumpets which you say are also the bowls, what other plagues was John inspired to write about?

Revelation 16:2
King James Version

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

How does a noisome and grievous sore falling just on those who had the mark and worshipped the image of th eantichrist harmonize with the ridfer on a white horse and 1/3 of all vegetation being burned up?

By saying this is the same as the first seal and first trumpet you are also saying that the mark of the beast and the image found in REv. 13 was established before the seals began. People cannot be plagued with a sore unless the mark and image had been established and people starting taking the mark. al l that takes time on earth!

I did show you my harmonization.

T2,V2
T3,V3
T4,V5
S6,T7,V7

Trump 2 and Vial 2 ... Blood seas
Trump 3 and Vial 3 ... Blood freshwater
Trump 4 and Vial 5 ...Sun Darkened
Seal 6, Trump 7 and Vial 7 ...Great earthquake (seal + vial indicate every mountain and island moved or destroyed)

Please read the questions before going off on a tangent. I didn't say every single thing harmonizes. That would be silly. Just like the synoptic gospels don't PERFECTLY harmonize. Different perspectives with different witnesses leads to differences in the stories.

ps where do you read that the rider on the white horse is the antichrist? or are you simply reaching for something to fit your interpretation?

 

[marks]

or are you simply reaching for something to fit your interpretation?

A rather rude question imo.

Why would someone want to respond to that?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

A rather rude question imo.

Why would someone want to respond to that?

Much love!

Sorry... rider on the white horse as the anti-Christ, is that exegesis or eisegesis? Was that a better way to frame the exact same question?

If you see rudeness in a simple question of clarification then maybe look to your own hearts motivation. It is possible you may be offended because you have no answer or the obvious answer disturbs your preconceived ideas. Some of us are simple Mennonite goat farmers with some time as we watch the herd chew their cud. Do you have an answer for any of my questions, or do you just monitor this site for possible rude questions?

What are your views on the harmonization of the seals, trumpets, bowls? Anything of substance to add to the discussion is greatly desired.

 

[marks]

Sorry... rider on the white horse as the anti-Christ, is that exegesis or eisegesis? Was that a better way to frame the exact same question?

If you see rudeness in a simple question of clarification then maybe look to your own hearts motivation. It is possible you may be offended because you have no answer or the obvious answer disturbs your preconceived ideas. Some of us are simple Mennonite goat farmers with some time as we watch the herd chew their cud. Do you have an answer for any of my questions, or do you just monitor this site for possible rude questions?

What are your views on the harmonization of the seals, trumpets, bowls? Anything of substance to add to the discussion is greatly desired.

A better way to frame the question? The question itself is what is - in my opinion - inappropriate. It's a thinly veiled "intellectual dishonesty" thing.

or are you simply reaching for something to fit your interpretation?

How far will you go to defend this? You are in the midst of showing yourself to me. You don't know me, and why should you care? Just the same, that's what's happening.

Shall we discuss end times? I don't mind. I've studied these things for many years. What I do mind is littering an otherwise good conversation with rudeness and logical fallacies.

Can we avoid that?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Well then if I am to bring biblical arguments, why don't you show your "biblical defense" for confessing that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all the same judgments from a different perspective.

That sounds like good form to me.

Each show their point of view, and how they arrive at that POV.

For myself, I see the seals being followed by the trumpets, and those being followed by the bowls. I see it this way because of the timing cues in the Revelation, such as, that the seventh seal is opened, and then afterward 7 angels are given seven trumpets.

The first seal is the rider on the white horse, the first trumpet is fire and brimstone from heaven, and these are not the same things. Different events at different times, not the same.

I'd include on this harmonization the "birth pangs" from the olivette discourse, the question being, do these precede the seals, or are they a different telling of the same things?

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

That sounds like good form to me.

Each show their point of view, and how they arrive at that POV.

For myself, I see the seals being followed by the trumpets, and those being followed by the bowls. I see it this way because of the timing cues in the Revelation, such as, that the seventh seal is opened, and then afterward 7 angels are given seven trumpets.

The first seal is the rider on the white horse, the first trumpet is fire and brimstone from heaven, and these are not the same things. Different events at different times, not the same.

I'd include on this harmonization the "birth pangs" from the olivette discourse, the question being, do these precede the seals, or are they a different telling of the same things?

Much love!

I do believe that the person looking at the white rider as being the anti-Christ is being intellectually dishonest. That was the correct application of my argument.
Eisegesis up the yahoo, unless they show some proof texts (in Revelation).

As per the timings given in Revelation... have you watched the movie Memento. This explains why I don't see the phrase "after these things..." as a timing mark, rather as a "and then I saw..." which does not denote actual chronology.

Why does everyone try to harmonize one event and say it is impossible? I have shown my harmonization earlier in this thread, but here it goes again.

Trumpet 2 and Vial 2 - Blood Seas
Trumpet 3 and Vial 3 - Blood Freshwater
Trumpet 4 and Vial 5 - Darkness
Seal 6, Trumpet 7 and Vial 7 - Great Earthquake ( 2 of the 3 indicate all mountains + islands moved or destroyed)

If the Seals are the Americas (for a few reasons which you won't take seriously) and the Trumpets is Israel and Vials is the enemies of Israel....
Local events would be shared between the Trumpets and Vials... while different events may be unfolding half a planet away.
Except the earthquake that is powerful enough to be felt worldwide.

The harmonization of the plagues is not a new idea... aprox 30 years in my head and I didn't originate the idea.

 

[marks]

I do believe that the person looking at the white rider as being the anti-Christ is being intellectually dishonest.

OK then.

Thank you for your clarity.

I'll be honest, I'm interested in discussing your ideas, however, condescension and rudeness do not attract me.

I say this in the hope of a good response.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

OK then.

Thank you for your clarity.

Much love!

So that's it? Zero engagement with the issue at hand? Or have you gone to do some homework (that I can respect)?

You said you wanted to discuss end times and you were open to a chat.... Now was your time and you are walking away?
If you are doing research.... awesome.
How far will I go to defend this? Prove me wrong with chapter and verse references from Revelation and I will cede the territory. But you better bring your "A" game for I wil definitely have questions.

 

[marks]

Revelation 6:2 KJV
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

So that's it? Zero engagement with the issue at hand? Or have you gone to do some homework (that I can respect)?

You said you wanted to discuss end times and you were open to a chat.... Now was your time and you are walking away?
If you are doing research.... awesome.
How far will I go to defend this? Prove me wrong with chapter and verse references from Revelation and I will cede the territory. But you better bring your "A" game for I wil definitely have questions.

I was beginning to construct my post, when I saw your alert, so I thought to see what you said.

And this was it.

Presumptive, condescending. Not appealing.

Is this your "a game"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

or are you simply reaching for something to fit your interpretation?

How far will you go to defend this?

What I meant specifically was, how far will you go to defend your remark. Which you've already doubled down on, so I have my answer.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

Revelation 6:2 KJV
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.



I was beginning to construct my post, when I saw your alert, so I thought to see what you said.

And this was it.

Presumptive, condescending. Not appealing.

Is this your "a game"?

Much love!

Were you starting to harmonize the first seal and first trumpet to show how wrong my ideas are? Read my harmonization before attempting that, please.
I don't have to be appealing, or even polite. I am a country boy with no need for this polished civility of the pseudo-intellectual class.
You haven't asked any questions, so my A game is still in my back pocket. Ask away and let's see.

 

[marks]

I don't have to be appealing, or even polite.

No, you don't, and neither am I required to want to discuss things of God with others who do not conduct themselves well.

Let the one who has knowledge, understanding, show it in a good conduct.

Were you starting to harmonize the first seal and first trumpet to show how wrong my ideas are? Read my harmonization before attempting that, please.

You haven't given an harmonization. At least what I've seen. You've made an assertion that certain events are the same, but you've not quoted the passages, you've not given textual comparisons, you've not done anything except assert your summary list. So what's to respond to?

No, they are not the same.

First the seals, then the trumpets, and then the vials. And if you wish you can post that which you think shows this wrong.

I'm giving you some time to see what I may see.

Much love!

 

[David Boyer]

No, you don't, and neither am I required to want to discuss things of God with others who do not conduct themselves well.

Let the one who has knowledge, understanding, show it in a good conduct.



You haven't given an harmonization. At least what I've seen. You've made an assertion that certain events are the same, but you've not quoted the passages, you've not given textual comparisons, you've not done anything except assert your summary list. So what's to respond to?

No, they are not the same.

First the seals, then the trumpets, and then the vials. And if you wish you can post that which you think shows this wrong.

I'm giving you some time to see what I may see.

Much love!

And all of your attestations are without ANY reference.
Are you so lazy that you can't look up what the trumpets and vials are without a reference. Why should I quote a passage that you know so well?
You won't argue against an outline of my thoughts but want me to put in a few hours work retyping Revelation so that you can see it on your screen without having to do any work? I don't encourage that kind of laziness.

If the events are not the same... Show me, oh great teacher.

Sequence of events disrupted by the blood seas and the blood freshwater and darkness over the lands around the anti-Christs lands, oh and the earthquake that moves every island and mountain. As outlined previously.

I at least provided references. You are just providing a statement of blind faith. Or could you provide references that I will look up. I promise I will look up any reference in Revelation that backs your claim. It is clear from your text that you have not extended that courtesy to me nor my arguments.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I did show you my harmonization.

T2,V2
T3,V3
T4,V5
S6,T7,V7

Trump 2 and Vial 2 ... Blood seas
Trump 3 and Vial 3 ... Blood freshwater
Trump 4 and Vial 5 ...Sun Darkened
Seal 6, Trump 7 and Vial 7 ...Great earthquake (seal + vial indicate every mountain and island moved or destroyed)

Please read the questions before going off on a tangent. I didn't say every single thing harmonizes. That would be silly. Just like the synoptic gospels don't PERFECTLY harmonize. Different perspectives with different witnesses leads to differences in the stories.

ps where do you read that the rider on the white horse is the antichrist? or are you simply reaching for something to fit your interpretation?

Well first get the chip off your shoulder. I did not see them. I did not read every post before I came in. I will accept responsibility for that. But no , The fact that the rider is the antichrist is well well established in dispensational eschatology.

First he is given a bow and allowed to go conquering.
Second he is given a stephanos crown, not a diadem. Jesus wears a diadem.
Third we know the antichrist has to conquer militarily to rise to power. He must conquer 3 of the ten "kings" who rule the world in the last days.

No I agree that there is similarities in the trumpets and vials, but they are similiarities not harmony.

T2 1/3 of the seas and life die from a rock from heaven.
V2 no rock from heaven and all the seas become blood and all life dies not just 1/3

T3 wormwood falls from heaven and 1/3 fresh waters poisoned
V3 all rivers and fresh waters become blood not just 1/3

T4 third part of sun, moon and stars darkened so day is reduced 1/3
v4 sun smitten and scorches men with great heat- not darkened.
T5 Angels releases locust like creatures from the abyss and hurt men for five months who do not have the seal of god (could be just the 144,000)
V5 Darkness covers teh antichrists kingdom and people chew their tongues for pain!

T6 4 angels released form Euphrates to kill 1/3 men with some type of army numbering 200,000,000
V6 1 not 4 angel dries the river Euphratres (not in trumpet 6) TO MAKE WAY FOR THE KINGS OF EAST. Demons released from Satan, AC and false prophet to prepare worlds armies for Armageddon.

T7 great rejoicing in heaven
V7 great earthquake, thundering's, islands and mountains fled and great city split in three.

So while the trumpets and vials affect similar things in similar order, the results and reasons are different. so to say they are somewhat similar is quite correct. To say they harmonize with each other is incoorect on a base level. There are too many differences to say they harmonize.