22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Randy Kluth]

God promised to save the world by sending his only begotten Son to atone...that whosoever of all nations shall believe in him shall be saved. When this current age consummates at the second coming, the righteous are the only ones left standing, just like the flood in Noah's day only left the righteous.

Trouble is, Noah's family weren't entirely righteous. Noah was. However, some in his family later showed definite signs of malice. This was hardly depictive of a new world of exclusive righteousness. On the contrary, the next big event was the Tower of Babel!

What Jesus meant to say is that both his 2nd Coming and the destruction of the Flood had in common the major cleansing of the earth from wicked people. This happens at the 2nd Coming without the termination of mortal human life. It happens by the glorification and rule of the Church.

 

[Taken]

My question was to @Truth7t7, who did not respond.
@Paul Malcomson responded to the question, who talked about things I did not ask. In short is his response.

So what is Rev 20: 2,3,4,5,6,7. 1,000 yr reign talking about?

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

QUOTE="Paul Malcomson, post: 1408984, member: 19530"]

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.

* So your response to the Rev 20: 1,000 year reign of Christ...it is occurring NOW.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now

.

Okay...Christ Jesus returned to Heaven (body, soul, spirit) 2,000 + years ago.

#1... Why have “the living saved IN Christ” ONLY been reigning for 1,000 years....When Christ Jesus ascended to Heaven 2,000 + years ago?

The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now.

# 2... What exactly do you mean, by “the dead in Christ” IN Heaven...
...Souls of men? .... Spirits of men? .... Body’s of men?

After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.

# 3 Who is “WE” ?
# 4 WHAT do you mean “identified with THIS resurrection”...
# 5 WHAT was resurrected...body? soul? spirit?

# 6 Where IS Satan, “NOW”, while YOU are reigning in “THIS” resurrection?
Reference...Rev 20:2 Satan bound, 1,000 years
Reference...Rev 20:7 Satan loosed AFTER 1,000 year

# Give us the The YEARS Time...WHEN Satan “was” bound...._______?

Please simply answer with your concise word.

 

[Taken]

I Agree, the Pre-Mill doctrine hangs their entire argument on Revelation 20:1-6 and the words (Thousand Years) we know well the words are descriptive of explaining the Lords eternal spiritual realm of no literal time

First of all there is no argument.
Some believe this others believe that...it’s a disagreement.

No, ones entire understanding does not hang on Rev 20:1-6.

Rev 20: 1-7 expressly ( 7 Times ) identifies a specific 1,000 year time frame...

Yes it's a fact that no Kingdom or Mortal humans on this earth are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 "None"

First..review: Rev 11: The two witnesses are preaching IN Jerusalem, are killed, ascend up AND an earthquake destroys 1/10 of Jerusalem.
7,000 killed, and the remnant were afraid and gave glory to God.
The 7th Angel sounds the 7th TRUMP...and WHAT?
......That ‘no Kingdom” in you could not find in Rev 20 ?
......Was already established in Rev 11:15.
......Those “no Mortal humans on earth” you could not find in Rev 20 ?
......Are called the Remnant 9/10 th’s of Jerusalem’s mortals (not killed) in Rev 11:13


Rev 11:
[10] And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
[11] And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[13] And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[14] The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[15] And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

If you review ancient History. God established an EVERLASTING Throne in the city of JERUSALEM. God seated David on that Throne. That throne has NOT been occupied for centuries. THAT is the Throne Christ Jesus SHALL Occupy....in HIS KINGDOM....
KINGDOMS have LAND BORDERS...
KINGDOMS of THIS World are called NATIONS.
The KINGDOM of Christ Jesus, IS the LAND BORDERS, of LAND promised to Abraham AND HIS Heirs.
(Remember, Jesus was SENT to earth, born from a virgin woman’s womb? Remember that woman married a man named Joesph? Remember Joseph was OF THE HOUSE DAVID? Remember God appointed David KING? Remember ONLY a RIGHTFUL “LEGAL” Heir...
Of the House of David, OF a descendent of Abraham...can OCCUPY, Davids Throne and Abraham Land?
.......Pretty convenient JESUS, was revealed...LEGALLY born of the House of David AND a LEGAL descendent of Abraham.......eh?

HOW ABOUT JESUS.......KING of kings......?
Rev 19:16
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Jesus is KING........of what kings?
......Uh, His Kingdom....Land promised to Abraham’s heirs...
......Uh, His Throne......Jerusalem

.....Other kingdoms......Nations.....
.....Other thrones.........sitting kings are WHO? Immortals ruling over immortals?

And AFTER the 1,000 years.......then what?
Satan is loosed and DOES WHAT? Deceives the nations!
What nations? Nations of “IMMORTALS” ... Nations of “MORTALS”, You say are not present on the earth?

Rev.20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
[8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

You writing umpteen times, “fairytale” “lies’, are simply your irrelevant opinionated accusations.
The importance of Rev 20: is it specifically identifies a 1,000 yr reign EXPRESSLY Seven times.
And No, Rev 20 is NOT the entirely of the Knowledge or Understanding or PURPOSE regarding Christ Jesus’ 1,000 yr earthly reign.

Christ Jesus’ earthly Kingdom is a very important part of the future, and the Reason for His Reign VOID of Satan’s Influence on mortal Kingdoms is Paramount.
To simply brush Christ Jesus’ 1,000 year earthly Reign...with your opinion of “fairytale and lies” is disingenuous.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

Yes, thank you for your summary. Well said. Given this picture, the Millennial period is located at the end of this current age.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It's easy to make claims like this, but can you back them up with scripture? I don't believe you can. Can you tell me how you interpret this passage:

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

How about this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

If you can give me an interpretation of these passage that is at least somewhat feasible, then you would be the first Premil that I've ever seen do so.

Isn't your challenge predicated on my choice of verses? hehe.
You aren't one of those people who believe that the Bible is allowed to contradict itself are you? I don't think you are.
So, how do we proceed? I explain away your verses so that you can, in turn, explain away my verses? Are we tired yet?

Summary:
From my perspective, the Bible clearly teaches a time when Jesus Christ will rule from the current geolocation we call Jerusalem. He and his followers will rule for a thousand years. This time serves a narrative purpose, according to Yahweh, which involves the vindication of his holy name. Christians know this time as the Millennial kingdom (or the Millennial period as I call it in sensitivity to those who maintain that the kingdom is now.)

In my video concerning Malachi 4, I liken the coming Day of the Lord to a story plot, which typically begins first with exposition; then followed by moment of conflict; then action rising to a climax; the climax of the story; and finally falling action ending in a final resolution. In other words, the Day of the Lord is an extended period of time, which begins with a moment of conflict and ends with conflict resolution. The return of Jesus Christ comes at the climax of the story; the millennial period constitutes "the falling action", which is the time after the climax when the story is brought to a close.

Luke 20:34
This passage is one among many that speak of "this age and the age to come." The question is whether this dichotomy indicates a discrete, punctiliar, and significant change in history or a story-like change in history, involving continuous action over time marked by a beginning, a middle and an end. It is impossible to answer this question from this single verse.

In filmmaking, a "jump cut" is an edit to a single, sequential shot that makes the action appear to leap forward in time. Our Amillennial brothers and sisters liken the Second Advent to a "jump cut", when the future appears to leap forward in time. In this view, the coming of Jesus isn't so much a "climax", as it is an abrupt change the time line, without any predicate action leading up to that point. In my view, history is the culmination of millions of moments, one moment following logically from the previous moment, which is punctuated by significant moments predicated on the telos:goal God assigned to it. The coming of Jesus will not happen as a "jump cut" in time, it will come as the climax to a larger story.

2 Peter 3:10
Here again, we allow ourselves to ask whether Peter is giving a complete description of the Day of the Lord. Does he believe that history is cleaved into two distinct, discrete parts by a sudden, singular event, or does he believe that the destruction of the heavens and the earth come at the end of an extended period of time? And once again, it is impossible to answer this question from Peter's exhortation. We must bear in mind that Peter's exhortation to live righteously is his central and critical point. Given that his central point is an exhortation to live a righteous life, we would not expect a complete account of the "Day of the Lord" in this context. He gives only enough detail to make his point.

Those who see a punctiliar aspect to his statements, bring that interpretation with them to the text, I think.

[I explain the narrative structure of the DAY of the Lord in this video.]
Title: DOL 02 Day of the Lord Malachi 4

[I explain the day that the son of man is revealed in this video.]
Title: Days of the Son of Man

 

[WPM]

What a colossal waste of energy, arguing that the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of God and Jesus! That is what we read in Rev 11 pertaining to the 2nd Coming and the end of the age. Nobody disputes this! Premils don't dispute it. Amils don't dispute it. It is not an argument!

The end of the age is the beginning of the Kingdom Age which, according to Rev 20, lasts a literal thousand years. Your problem is you don't *believe* it.

Under the old covenant, the kingdom of God is seen typologically. That is to say, the literal kings and the outward physical operation of the kingdom of Israel was just an imperfect type and shadow of the spiritual kingdom Christ would bring at the first Advent. God used this as a pointer to the glorious heavenly kingdom that Jesus would bring to this earth 2000 years ago.

Jesus did not try to usher in the same type of kingdom that David, Solomon and the other Old Testament kings ruled over. He had no desire, or made no attempt, to overthrow the ruling Roman Empire by force, as many Israelites expected. He rather come to rule and reign in the hearts and lives of fallen humans.

The reality is: Christ never made any attempt to set up a carnal Zionist territorial political kingdom. He did not make the slightest attempt to overthrow the Roman rulers. He wasn’t even an earthly king. Nowhere did He try to raise up an earthly army to instigate a nationalist political kingdom. Nowhere did He teach such a false system. He rather came to reveal and introduce a heavenly kingdom which was entered by faith.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an ethnic territorial domain. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. Ironically, this truism was presented by the Legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ’s phony credentials.

We should remind ourselves: man did not, and does not, have the ability to abort or postpone the kingdom. That is a Dispensational invention. The kingdom came 2000 years ago in power. Only those who had eyes to see saw it. It is the same today. Many today have the same mistaken expectation as the blinded Pharisees had. They are looking for a physical material pollical Zionist kingdom that will reign over the Gentile nations throughout the earth. But Jesus brought a spiritual heavenly and eternal kingdom that is entered by faith.

Many Christians, who call themselves Premillennialists, deny that Jesus is presently reigning as king over His kingdom. They do this by ignoring the clear and repeated teachings in Scripture. They also do this because they have a faulty concept of the kingdom of God. They anticipate a Pharisaical-type-kingdom with Christ supposedly reigning on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom, in which the Gentiles take a backseat. They imagine that this earthly kingdom will last for 1000 years+. They try to portray it as some type of heaven-on-earth, with historic peace, when in fact, it ends up one almighty debacle, with the greatest uprising of wicked men against Christ and His people in history. Unfortunately, they make the exact same mistake as the Pharisees did, who expected a visible, physical, temporal, earthly kingdom, when, in fact, Christ brought a spiritual, heavenly, eternal kingdom that could not be viewed with the naked eye.

Christ’s teaching on the kingdom of God was totally alien to the hyper-literal thinking of the Jews of His day, who anticipated a literal racist kingdom, with the Messiah reigning over the Gentiles from Jerusalem in a tyrannical manner. But Jesus taught something completely different. His kingdom was spiritual. It was entered by faith. It was heavenly-centered. It was international in expanse, and knew no boundaries. This cut across the Zionism of the religious phonies who opposed Christ. It exposed the racial prejudice of the unbelieving Jews. It countered their carnal earthy expectation. It blew apart their parochial mindset. The Christ-rejecting Israelites had absolutely no comprehension of the spiritual fulfillment or the heavenly focus of the kingdom promises. That is because they were spiritually blind.

 

[WPM]

So you now have to prove that everybody dies at the 2nd Coming. And that runs up against the OT Prophets who taught that Israel would be restored, nationally, one last time, "never to be defeated again." That hasn't happened, and it will happen, I believe, in the Kingdom of God. At that time we are told that the glorious Church will reign together with Christ and subdue the mortal nations, which implies that they still have a sin nature and pagan tendencies. They will have to be "subdued."

Now if you want to know where Jews get their beliefs that the Prophets taught this final restoration you can go to them. Or we can discuss it ourselves? But not just Israel was promised fulfillment as a nation of God. There also has to be "many" nations of God, in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. Christian nations are presently failing, and so, we should expect this to be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God, as well. All of these nations, called to serve God, must be restored. And it will happen when Satan's rule comes to an end, and his own Kingdom, invested in Antichrist, is completely destroyed.

The reason why the Jewish Scribes and Pharisees rejected Him was that He didn’t meet their hyper-literalist expectation of an ethnic territorial domain. The kingdom He spoke of was spiritual and heavenly. This did not fit in with their carnal expectation. Sadly, Premils still seek after such a faulty expectation in order to justify their flawed future hope. What is more, the natural, physical, earthly ceremonial aspects of the old covenant are obliterated in the New Testament by the new covenant reality. Ironically, this truism was presented by the Legalistic religious Jewish leaders as evidence of Christ’s phony credentials.

For Premillennialism to work it must change the nature of the kingdom taught in the New Testament, reject the Messiah’s introduction of it from the time of John the Baptist, they must reject Christ’s current reign at the right hand of majesty on high, and then ignore the fact that kingdom is handed up to the Father when Jesus comes at the end. This allows for Premillennialists to introduce a Pharisee style physical kingdom where their old covenant style arrangement is restarted.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Many Christians, who call themselves Premillennialists, deny that Jesus is presently reigning as king over His kingdom.

No we don't. I don't. Nonetheless, I also believe that Jesus is going to rule on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom because THAT is what the Bible teaches.

Just because Jesus' kingdom is populated by his followers, it doesn't follow that he will not rule on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom. The first does not negate the second. Both ideas are compatible and both can coexist.

 

[WPM]

No we don't. I don't. Nonetheless, I also believe that Jesus is going to rule on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom because THAT is what the Bible teaches.

Just because Jesus' kingdom is populated by his followers, it doesn't follow that he will not rule on earth over a temporal Jewish kingdom. The first does not negate the second. Both ideas are compatible and both can coexist.

No it does not. That is a Pharisaical invention. You make the same mistake they do. Christ did not teach a literal temporal territorial physical kingdom based in physical Jerusalem. He spiritualized it and showed it was a heavenly eternal kingdom that was coming. Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

Messiah would come and reveal true righteousness and divine authority, although it would be in a completely different way to what Israel expected. The kingdom of God, which Christ continually spoke of, did not relate to a physical Jewish kingdom that could be viewed with human sight. It did not relate to individual Gentile nations. Luke 17:20-21 records an interesting discourse between Christ and the Pharisees on the subject of the kingdom of God, saying, He was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Christ replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within (entos) you.”

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendour, impressive power and magnitude. It was, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which could only be spiritually entered. Messiah had finally come to His people.

John Gill says of this passage, “it [the kingdom of God] reigns, through righteousness, unto eternal life; and by it, Christ, as king of saints, dwells and reigns in his people. Now this is not to be understood of the Scribes and Pharisees, as if they had any such internal principle in them, who were as painted sepulchres, and had nothing but rottenness and corruption in them.”

When Christ appeared at His first advent, many religious Jews imagined He would reinstate the then defunct earthly throne of Israel and reign victorious over the physical nation of Israel. They believed that the appearance of Messiah would usher in a period of physical and spiritual bliss for Israel in which their enemies would be totally destroyed. The Jewish expectation was a literal visible territorial kingdom of which the Messiah – the King – would rule over. They believed He would immediately destroy every enemy that withstood the house of Israel. Their wrong thinking was guided by a hyper-literalist interpretation of OT Messianic prophecies. These Christ confronted and exposed in His teaching.

Premillennialists are constantly exalting the power and influence of Satan and diluting the sovereign power and influence of Christ. That is nowhere more evident than in their constant rubbishing of Christ’s current kingship over His enemies at the right hand of majesty on high. Whether they mean to or not, Premils are always highlighting what Satan is doing in our day instead of what Christ is doing. Premil portrays a BIG devil and a small god; Scripture presents a small devil and a BIG God. In Premil, Satan seems sovereign in this age and God is curtailed. Premils are always lauding the ability of Satan since the cross. In Scripture, Christ is sovereign and Satan is curtailed. Scripture is always lauding the ability of Christ since the cross. As a consequence, Premil portrays an impotent beat-down New Testament Church, whereas Scripture sees a victorious potent New Testament Church invading the nations with the good news of Christ and subjugating the powers of darkness as they do so. In Scripture Christ reigns over all creation as God and His new creation as Savior.

 

[WPM]

Yes, thank you for your summary. Well said. Given this picture, the Millennial period is located at the end of this current age.

Both Premils and many Preterists must have three ages in their school of thought: “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” Christ or none of the Apostles taught three ages (1) this age (2) millennial age, (3) age to come, but rather two.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s Advent in glory, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Both Premils and many Preterists must have three ages in their school of thought: “this age, the age to come and another age to come after the age to come.” Christ or none of the Apostles taught three ages (1) this age (2) millennial age, (3) age to come, but rather two.

Premils are faced with an unsurmountable obstacle: Scripture only recognizes time up until Christ’s Advent in glory, and then eternity after this. There is no space or opportunity for the semi-glorious/semi-corrupt bipolar age that they anticipate. The age to come has eternity written all over it. It is not temporal. It is not sinful. It does not involve earthly sensual pleasures.

We are all learning. As I said, the millennial kingdom is located in THIS age.

 

[WPM]

My question was to @Truth7t7, who did not respond.
@Paul Malcomson responded to the question, who talked about things I did not ask. In short is his response.






* So your response to the Rev 20: 1,000 year reign of Christ...it is occurring NOW.



Okay...Christ Jesus returned to Heaven (body, soul, spirit) 2,000 + years ago.

#1... Why have “the living saved IN Christ” ONLY been reigning for 1,000 years....When Christ Jesus ascended to Heaven 2,000 + years ago?




# 2... What exactly do you mean, by “the dead in Christ” IN Heaven...
...Souls of men? .... Spirits of men? .... Body’s of men?



# 3 Who is “WE” ?
# 4 WHAT do you mean “identified with THIS resurrection”...
# 5 WHAT was resurrected...body? soul? spirit?

# 6 Where IS Satan, “NOW”, while YOU are reigning in “THIS” resurrection?
Reference...Rev 20:2 Satan bound, 1,000 years
Reference...Rev 20:7 Satan loosed AFTER 1,000 year

# Give us the The YEARS Time...WHEN Satan “was” bound...._______?

Please simply answer with your concise word.

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint. Please remember demons are spirits. Satan and his minions were injured at the cross, Satan’s head is now bruised. His movement is impaired. He is incapacitated.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition. A physical chain and a physical prison will not cut it. The restraint upon him is spiritual. He is like a dog on a chain. A chain does not prevent movement, it limits movement.

Do prisoners have movement within a prison?
Can prisoners hurt?
Can prisoners steal?
Can prisoners kill?
Can prisoners scheme?
Can prisoners commit disorder?

Of course they do.

The wicked are repeatedly depicted in Scripture as being in a prison and being in chains, does that suggest an inability to move?

Of course not!

Matthew 12:22-29 records, “Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils. And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man? And then he will spoil his house.”

Jesus describes Satan here as the “strong man.” He depicts Himself as the One who enters the house the strong man and plunders his goods. But before this happens he must first be incapacitated.

The Lord identifies the casting out of devils, and the resulting liberating of souls, with the actual binding of the strong man. He in turn presents this as proof that Satan is curbed through the presence and victorious function of the kingdom of God. Christ was specifically referring to Satan here (the strong man) and his demonic kingdom, and expressly connects his binding with the manifestation of the kingdom of God during His earthly ministry. The subjugating of devils was proof of the spiritual restraint of the evil one. Satan could not prevent this. Satan could not overcome those who had been rescued by Christ.

The devil was subject to the purposes of God and hurt by the spiritual advance of the kingdom of God. This kingdom is still alive and active today. Souls are still being marvelously delivered from the power of Satan. The binding of the strong man continues today wherever the Gospel prevails.

Mark 3:11, 23-27 also records: “unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God ... And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind [Gr. deo] the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.”

This familiar discourse by our Lord came as a response to the crude scoffs of the religious Scribes (during His earthly ministry) dismissing Christ’s deliverance ministry as a work of Satan. Christ’s reply confirmed that the binding of Satan commenced 2,000 yrs ago and is not simply a future hope that will occur after the Lord’s return. He said: “No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.” Christ was firstly referring to the false charge that was laid at his door in relation to his assault on the demonic realm. Secondly, He was describing the subjugation of the “unclean spirits” as “when they saw him” they “fell down before him” in surrender.

Jesus said in the corresponding passage in Luke 11:20-22, “if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.”

Here, Christ highlights the Sovereign power of the kingdom of God and reveals how the “strong man” – Satan – and his kingdom of devils can only be defeated by One that is stronger than them, namely Himself – the Son of God. As we examine the gospels we discover, Satan was stripped everywhere that Christ confronted him. The Lord entered the devil’s house and took authority over him and spoilt His goods. Previously, Satan's grip on the nations was so strong and so embedded that the truth of God's Word could not penetrate through. The devil overwhelmingly controlled the Gentile nations.

Revelation 20:1-3 states, “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound [Gr. deo] him a thousand years, And cast him into the abyss and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

The binding, imprisonment and sealing of the dragon are themselves metaphors for the curtailment of Satan's authority. While a prisoner has movement within a prison he is restricted to very clear boundaries that cannot be breached. If we view the heavenly angel as being Christ (as most commentators of all views do), then there seems reasonable grounds to come to that conclusion. This whole portrayal corresponds with the great battle of the ages that occurred with the earthly life, death and resurrection of Christ 2,000 years when Christ stripped Satan of his previous authority given to him by man. This seems to fit the victorious outworking of this great conflict when Christ assumed “All power ... in heaven and in earth” (Matthew 28:18).

Christ secured absolute victory over Satan and every other enemy through His foreordained death, burial and resurrection. He now exercises supreme kingly control in the heavenly realm. He holds sovereign power upon God’s eternal throne over all mankind. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted!

 

[WPM]

We are all learning. As I said, the millennial kingdom is located in THIS age.

Oh. I agree. It is ongoing now.

 

[WPM]

It's a big mistake to reject the Jewish Scriptures simply because spiritually-bankrupt Jewish leaders claimed they believed in them. Jesus said, even in his own time, that his disciples should do what they say, but not what they do. In other words, their beliefs may be right, even though they themselves are corrupt and devious.

He didn't say he "reject[ed] the Jewish Scriptures" you are twisting what he said agin. Do you not have the ability to tell the truth? Just because your arguments are being exposed does not mean you have to always attack the messengers.

 

[WPM]

I abandoned Amil because I thought it *not* the truth! Revelation 20 teaches a literal Millennium--not a symbolic one. Shame on you for telling me to twist the very book that warns us not to do that!



I've answered this before, and I can do it again. The world does not *end* at the 2nd Coming. The Bible specifically forbids that. Any language that *sounds* like that is talking about devastation that happens all across the earth--not the end of the planet. It is talking about the end of rule by pagan nations over God's Kingdom on earth.

So you now have to prove that everybody dies at the 2nd Coming. And that runs up against the OT Prophets who taught that Israel would be restored, nationally, one last time, "never to be defeated again." That hasn't happened, and it will happen, I believe, in the Kingdom of God. At that time we are told that the glorious Church will reign together with Christ and subdue the mortal nations, which implies that they still have a sin nature and pagan tendencies. They will have to be "subdued."

Now if you want to know where Jews get their beliefs that the Prophets taught this final restoration you can go to them. Or we can discuss it ourselves? But not just Israel was promised fulfillment as a nation of God. There also has to be "many" nations of God, in accordance with God's promise to Abraham. Christian nations are presently failing, and so, we should expect this to be fulfilled in the Kingdom of God, as well. All of these nations, called to serve God, must be restored. And it will happen when Satan's rule comes to an end, and his own Kingdom, invested in Antichrist, is completely destroyed.

You invent an age and force it into passage after passage. You depend upon your misreading of one highly symbolic passage located in the most obscure setting in Scripture. You interpret the rest of the Bible through your faulty opinion of that one chapter. Amils do the opposite. They interpret Rev 20 by the full gamut of Scripture.

What you advocate on these pages re the introduction of a carnal earthly kingdom, where the Messiah subjugates the Gentiles and rules over them with an iron rod, where Israel enjoys a superior racial place above all other nations, where the old covenant arrangement and conditions become the norm again, is actually a modern rehash of the racial man-centered, earth-bound, prejudice theology of the Pharisees that caused then to justify rejecting Christ and crucifying our Savior. This theology was rejected by all the ECFs and was foisted upon Christianity by the heretic Cerenthius. He was the father what is known as Premil today.

Many fail to read the Old Testament prophets with the understanding that their overwhelming anticipation and focus was the Messiah’s impending earthly manifestation to Israel. They saw Him as Israel’s Saviour and deliverer, and they repeatedly described in these vivid terms. The Old Testament seers anticipated a time when Messiah would come and introduce righteousness and peace. The Pharisees failed to see that He was on a spiritual mission to seek and to save that which is lost, and also challenge and overthrow the spiritual powers of darkness. He was not on a carnal mission to physically overthrow the ruling human powers by natural means, as the Pharisees and modern Premils imagine was His task. He did this in a way that confounded the Pharisees with their faulty racist and geographical mind-set. He came to defeat the enemies with the Word of God and introduce His spiritual kingdom. As you study the New Testament you discover that He fulfilled everything that had been written of Him.

Even though the religious Jews and pagan Romans were largely ignorant to who Christ was, the crowd acknowledged the presence of Messiah’s kingdom manifested through Jesus Christ. Christ was indeed the fulfilment of every Davidic prophecy. He was David’s greater son. In Jesus Christ we see the introduction of the eternal Davidic hope and the plan of God for mankind. The kingdom and the king are inseparable in both the spiritual and the natural realm. A king without a kingdom is not a king. The triumphant parade of Christ signalled the fulfilment of many of the Old Testament prophecies relating the coming of the Davidic kingdom.

What Premil does is twist or hyper-literalize OT Messianic prophecies relating to the last days (the intra-Advent period) or dump new heavens and new earth passages into their alleged future kingdom.

Christ, none of the Apostles, none of the prophets taught three ages (1) this age (2) millennial age, (3) age to come, but rather two. If this is indeed this semi-glorious age that Premil writers depict then why is it is not described in great detail or identified repeatedly throughout the sacred pages. This "thousand years" is only found in the highly symbolic book of Revelation that is saturated in apocalyptic language and symbolic numbers and ideas.

Every fundamental within Premil is non-corroborative. Where is any other mention a thousand years kingdom after the second coming, 2 resurrection days separated by a thousand years, 2 judgment days separated by a thousand years, an earthly reign of Christ, the binding of Satan and the release of Satan and an uprising 1,000 years later?

 

[WPM]

You might as well condemn Christianity because the JWs and Mormons are Christians. Premill began with the Apostle John, whose Revelation taught it. And those who followed John in Asia Minor and elsewhere likewise were Premill. The fact a couple of heretics held to the same view the others did has absolutely zero bearing on the matter. Guilt by association--that's your object, and it is illegitimate and slanderous because it suggests that Premills both then and now shared the heretical views of these heretics. And yet, they didn't.

I am starting to see a startling admission. You do not deny my thesis that modern-day Premillennialists teach the same doctrine as the heretical ancient Premillennialists and the Pharisees of Jesus day. In fact, you defend it. You defend the likeness between these. This is your justification. This is such a poor and self-destructive argument and an damning admission. You reinforce your argument repeating the same:

You further state: "If you equate Mormons with classic Christianity you will find lots of commonalities. But you should not, then, claim that classic Christianity and Mormonism are the same, or that some of the beliefs they have in common are necessarily heretical.

This is called "guilt by association," and was a tactic used by Amillennialists to justify their abandonment of the literal interpretation of Revelation 20. We were told, by the Apostle John, not to alter the rendering of the Revelation. So turning the thousand years of Rev 20 into an allegory would be doing that, I should think? Bad move. Very bad move.

Calling Millennial life corrupt for Premillennialists just because Cerinthus viewed it that way is not justified. Cerinthus may have been corrupt, and the Premillennialists not.

Some Ascetics who view the material world as evil would depict the current earth as corrupt. But those of us who are Christians view the same earth and do not find it to be essentially corrupt. On the contrary, we thank God for it.

So seeing a future Millennial world that is literal and physical is seen as corrupt by those who have jaded eyes. If the eye is bad, everything looks bad.

But those of us who see the Millennial world as good, with evil put under the submission of the Christian Kingdom, have good eyes, and see things from a pure point of view. The material world is to be thanked for."

And once again:

"Marcion and Cerinthus were heretics, and not "Christian" in any true orthodox sense. By contrast, the Chiliastic Church Fathers were largely orthodox in doctrine. You might as well claim you get your teachings from Joseph Smith because he taught out of the Christian Bible before you did!

Then you defend how the Pharisees espoused the same hope and expectation of the kingdom as you do."

Modern Premils have one tenet in common with early Chiliasts. That is it! Amils have many common beliefs. What is more, all the early Chiliasts and Amils for 210 years after the cross believed in a climactic return of Christ that saw the end of sin and sinners, crying and dying, disease and decay, Satan and his minions. Premils have no rebuttal to that because it is a fact.

Eric said: "You mean Jewish people like the Pharisees and scribes? How did that work out for them? You understand that the Jewish people were wrong about a lot of things, right?

It never had any validity. We need to go by what is taught in scripture, not by what people like the Pharisees and scribes, who were wrong about almost everything, taught."

It's a big mistake to reject the Jewish Scriptures simply because spiritually-bankrupt Jewish leaders claimed they believed in them. Jesus said, even in his own time, that his disciples should do what they say, but not what they do. In other words, their beliefs may be right, even though they themselves are corrupt and devious.

This sums up your theology in a nutshell. Isn't it poignant and damning to your beliefs that you say this about both the early heretical Premils and also the Pharisees at the time of Christ. That is so telling! This reveals where your doctrine truly emanates from and where it belongs.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No it does not. That is a Pharisaical invention.

They didn't invent it. They were students of the word of God. You are getting your stuff from NT Write I gather?

Christ did not teach a literal temporal territorial physical kingdom based in physical Jerusalem.

Sure he did. I guess you didn't listen or perhaps you missed it. He didn't mention it very often; because why? Everyone involved already shared a common understanding of the prophets who prophesied concerning a coming messiah who would rule from the literal, physical Jerusalem. One does not need to argue against those with whom one already agrees.

But ask yourself this question. If Jesus was teaching about a spiritual kingdom rather than a physical kingdom, why was he arrested?

Matthew tells you why. Jesus was indicted for blaspheme, because he claimed to be the Son of Man. Who is this son of man? The reference comes from Daniel 7, where we see one like a son of man approaching the throne of God to receive a dominion which will not pass away. In that context, an angel interprets the vision saying, "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’"

In your view, Verse 27 can't take place. In your view there will never be a time when other dominions will serve and obey Him. In my view, the other dominions will serve Jesus Christ during the Millennial period. In your view, after the second coming, no other dominions will exist.

 

[WPM]

They didn't invent it. They were students of the word of God. You are getting your stuff from NT Write I gather?

Sure he did. I guess you didn't listen or perhaps you missed it. He didn't mention it very often; because why? Everyone involved already shared a common understanding of the prophets who prophesied concerning a coming messiah who would rule from the literal, physical Jerusalem. One does not need to argue against those with whom one already agrees.

But ask yourself this question. If Jesus was teaching about a spiritual kingdom rather than a physical kingdom, why was he arrested?

Matthew tells you why. Jesus was indicted for blaspheme, because he claimed to be the Son of Man. Who is this son of man? The reference comes from Daniel 7, where we see one like a son of man approaching the throne of God to receive a dominion which will not pass away. In that context, an angel interprets the vision saying, "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’"

In your view, Verse 27 can't take place. In your view there will never be a time when other dominions will serve and obey Him. In my view, the other dominions will serve Jesus Christ during the Millennial period. In your view, after the second coming, no other dominions will exist.

Wrong! You are fighting with Jesus and you are fighting with Scripture. Your Pharisaical hope is misplaced. You should learn from their mistake and learn from history. There is nothing new under the sun! They missed the boat with their faulty hope. In Luke 17:20-21 Christ was “demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come.”

Christ replied, “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The kingdom of God, which Christ continually spoke of, related not to a physical Jewish kingdom that could be viewed with human sight. The kingdom of God relates to the unseen realm where the people are governed by their mediator King. Christ rules this kingdom, not by force, but love. Those that subject to His authority are administered by the Word of God and the Spirit of God. Premil denies Christ His current kingship over His spiritual domain with its constant future focus upon the kinship of Christ. Whilst there is a future aspect to Christ’s kingship, there is also the current reality.

Romans 14:17 sums it up like this: “For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink (or, not temporal, earthly material things); but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.”

The kingdom is marked by:

· righteousness
· peace
· joy

The kingdom of God is not primarily directed toward the physical needs of man but rather his spiritual needs.

It was also not of this world – it was a heavenly kingdom. John 18:36, saying, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight.”

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

 

[Taken]

The abyss is not a geographical place but a spiritual condition of restraint.

Disagree.

Satan is a spiritual being. We are therefore looking in Revelation 20 at spiritual chains and a spiritual prison. The abyss is a spiritual condition.

Never asked you WHAT Satan IS.
You made a long post and answered NOT one question I asked.
A LONG POST AGAIN, without answering AGAIN.

A star falls from Heaven to Earth...(face of the Earth)
That fallen star is given the KEY to the BOTTOMLESS PIT.
That fallen star Opens the Bottomless Pit.
Smoke rises UP from the Pit.
The Smoke is so great it Blocks the Sun light and Air.
OUT of the PIT comes LOCUST.
The Locust come UPON the face of the Earth.

Not rocket science to comprehend the Bottomless Pit, the abyss, Hell, whatever term fancy’s you.................... IS a geographical place.......
IN the Earth.


Rev 9:
[1] And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
[2] And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
[3] And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

 

[Taken]

I abandoned Amil because I thought it *not* the truth! Revelation 20 teaches a literal Millennium--not a symbolic one. Shame on you for telling me to twist the very book that warns us not to do that!

Do you not see @Paul Malcomson MO? Can not stick to a point, directly answer a question, litters his posts with defections, creating rabbit holes with the hope of sucking you in?