22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

You keep forgetting that they were OT bred and raised in the first century. The two ages were death and Abraham's bosom. The Age to come was life and Paradise. The Cross was the point of the age to come.

While they were looking for an immediate Second Coming, we have the knowledge that it has not happened yet, 1992 years later. You are pointing out an OT mindset. Even Paul claimed ages to come: Ephesians 2:6-7

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

Sitting in heavenly places was not a future reality to Paul. That was the then and now. Sitting in heavenly places was not the ages to come. The ages to come were separate from that point. The ages to come was other greatness that would be experienced.

Sitting in heavenly places is the here and now, not some future expectation. You only see the symbolism. Paul was talking about a literal point, already in place. "Ages" is not a singular future age. It is plural future ages.

Creation has several ages. You can't limit God by your belief system. You are not even agreeing with the apostle Paul.

 

[Timtofly]

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

Disprove your human attempt to portray God's Word as "highly debatable", "precarious freyed thread", or "dubious"?

How can you imply such attributes to God's Word? Talk about misrepresenting God's Word? You have proved that one op can do just that. Is it 22 reasons why the word "pre-mill" upsets me? Have you thought about taking a vacation from the word?

 

[WPM]

Implies to you. Non-Christians calling Christians, non Christians, is also nonsensical.

Obviously in most things, you don't care at all what other Christians think. Yet you change the definition of a word, just so you can be hyper offended?

Why did you not read what he said? You deliberately twist his comments. Shame on you!

 

[WPM]

Disprove your human attempt to portray God's Word as "highly debatable", "precarious freyed thread", or "dubious"?

How can you imply such attributes to God's Word? Talk about misrepresenting God's Word? You have proved that one op can do just that. Is it 22 reasons why the word "pre-mill" upsets me? Have you thought about taking a vacation from the word?

The only thing "highly debatable", "precarious frayed thread", or "dubious" are your beliefs.

 

[Truth7t7]

The account of Rev 20 indicates that mankind is not eradicated from the planet following universal judgment. "Universal Judgment" implies devastating judgments will take place in many localities throughout the earth. But the Scriptures say that the earth itself continues forever.

Mortal human beings will not be completely removed from the earth until the New Earth arrives at the end of the Millennium, and all unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. As often as I'm told I must not believe in a literal Millennium, the Scriptures themselves warn me not to accept that advice. I'm sticking with the word of God.

Your Continued Claims That The Lord's Destruction Is "Localized" To Places Upon Earth Is "Laughable", You Will Be Shown Biblical Truth Below Again And Again "That You Openly Deny"

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Taken]

Your Continued Claims That The Lord's Destruction Is "Localized" To Places Upon Earth Is "Laughable", You Will Be Shown Biblical Truth Below Again And Again "That You Openly Deny"

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns ...

So what is Rev 20: 2,3,4,5,6,7. 1,000 yr reign talking about?

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

 

[Truth7t7]

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.

Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce it from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Premil is dependent upon the dubious premise that Revelation 20 is chronological to Revelation 19. That is it! Disprove that and Premil falls apart.

I Agree, the Pre-Mill doctrine hangs their entire argument on Revelation 20:1-6 and the words (Thousand Years) we know well the words are descriptive of explaining the Lords eternal spiritual realm of no literal time

Yes it's a fact that no Kingdom or Mortal humans on this earth are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 "None" yet Pre-Millennialist claim there is "The Big Lie"!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your Continued Claims That The Lord's Destruction Is "Localized" To Places Upon Earth Is "Laughable", You Will Be Shown Biblical Truth Below Again And Again "That You Openly Deny"

You or others sometimes don't understand what I'm saying. Let me explain it in a way you may be able to understand. Let's say that a castle contains 100 rooms. And let's say I seriously damage every room in that castle. I could then say "the entire castle has been seriously damaged," and still not imply that the entire castle has been destroyed.

When talking about armies all across the earth, or large cities all across the earth, being destroyed, it doesn't mean that entire populations are extinguished, that the structures are completely razed, nor that none of those places exist at all any longer.

It just means that everywhere, each local area has been devastated. And since it is all across the planet, it is described in universal terms, not at all meaning the planet goes away. As I said, the Bible says that the earth is everlasting.

When Christ comes again, a battle will take place, which may very well be a major nuclear war. Entire cities across the globe would then be ruined, though the populations on earth would continue to exist. The elements would melt, and people in those cities would cry out that the sky is engulfed in smoke, making the heavens seem to disappear across the entire sky.

Biblical language does not express things in modern scientific terms, but in its own way of describing things, which is from the perspective of a person standing on the earth and looking up. He is not contemplating the earth as a globe. When he says it is destroyed, he is talking about a major civilization being extinguished, and not all the people in it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20.

How many times must you be told that that is not true! I've told you for years now that the Kingdom of God, the Messianic Kingdom, is declared as coming throughout the OT Prophets. You think that refers to the current NT age, but it can't. And that's because the Prophets at the time they delivered their prophecies were still under the old covenant, and spoke largely to Israel, though not exclusively. Inasmuch as the International Church had not been born yet, the prophecies tended to focus on how Israel would fare in the Kingdom Age. The International Church was given that hope later, though not to the exclusion of national Israel.

Israel was promised that they would exist forever, that they would have a nation forever, at least until the New Universe. Since they have been in Diaspora now for 2000 plus years, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and will be fulfilled, according to the Prophets, in the Age of Messiah. That age is not yet, even though Messiah has already come and has provided the way, legally, for this to take place.

It remains for Israel to come back to their land and accept Christianity. This will happen when Christ returns, according to both Jesus and Peter. Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse that the Jewish People will be regathered at the 2nd Coming. And Paul said in Rom 11 that all Israel will be saved when Christ returns.

So the rest of your arguments are of no consequence if you can't start with this. You begin, falsely, with the notion that Millennialism begins with Rev 20. In fact, the Jewish People had preached the Millennial Day theory before Christianity and before John's Revelation. And that's because the Prophets had already predicted a coming period of rest, the Kingdom of God in which Israel would be restored and *never be destroyed again.*

 

[WPM]

I Agree, the Pre-Mill doctrine hangs their entire argument on Revelation 20:1-6 and the words (Thousand Years) we know well the words are descriptive of explaining the Lords eternal spiritual realm of no literal time

Yes it's a fact that no Kingdom or Mortal humans on this earth are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 "None" yet Pre-Millennialist claim there is "The Big Lie"!

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world. Revelation 20 starts the 7th of 7 parallels. Premils cannot or will not see that because it decimates their teaching. Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldnt wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

 

[WPM]

How many times must you be told that that is not true! I've told you for years now that the Kingdom of God, the Messianic Kingdom, is declared as coming throughout the OT Prophets. You think that refers to the current NT age, but it can't. And that's because the Prophets at the time they delivered their prophecies were still under the old covenant, and spoke largely to Israel, though not exclusively. Inasmuch as the International Church had not been born yet, the prophecies tended to focus on how Israel would fare in the Kingdom Age. The International Church was given that hope later, though not to the exclusion of national Israel.

Israel was promised that they would exist forever, that they would have a nation forever, at least until the New Universe. Since they have been in Diaspora now for 2000 plus years, this prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, and will be fulfilled, according to the Prophets, in the Age of Messiah. That age is not yet, even though Messiah has already come and has provided the way, legally, for this to take place.

It remains for Israel to come back to their land and accept Christianity. This will happen when Christ returns, according to both Jesus and Peter. Jesus said in his Olivet Discourse that the Jewish People will be regathered at the 2nd Coming. And Paul said in Rom 11 that all Israel will be saved when Christ returns.

So the rest of your arguments are of no consequence if you can't start with this. You begin, falsely, with the notion that Millennialism begins with Rev 20. In fact, the Jewish People had preached the Millennial Day theory before Christianity and before John's Revelation. And that's because the Prophets had already predicted a coming period of rest, the Kingdom of God in which Israel would be restored and *never be destroyed again.*

You have been telling me what you have been taught by man for years and not what the Bible says. When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

The kingdom of God exists wherever the king – the Lord Jesus Christ – exercises His spiritual jurisdiction. It is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises His divine kingship, dominion and intimate rule. It relates to all those who belong to His body. His kingdom embodies all those who possess the indwelling Holy Spirit – those who are real believers. Christ’s kingdom is therefore found wherever there are citizens of that kingdom.

The Lord revealed in this passage that the kingdom of God – His kingdom – was not a literal earthly domain neither could it be viewed like other kingdoms with their outward splendor, impressive power and magnitude. It is, rather, a spiritual kingdom, which can only be spiritually entered.

Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Christ couldn’t have made it clearer. This expectation – of a literal visible territorial political kingdom – was wrong. It exposed the ignorance which controlled the Jews. They had a defective perception of the nature of God’s kingdom and the manner in which it would appear.

The kingdom of God that Christ introduced was of a spiritual nature. This absolutely confounded the Pharisees and their misguided earthly carnal concept of the Messianic kingdom.

Colossians 1:18 says, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church.”

That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you!

Have you invited king Jesus into your heart? Then the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:33: “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

As an American citizen you owe your allegiance to the American flag. But there is a higher allegiance. That is to Christ, because He is your King. The kingdom of God overrides every earthly kingdom. You are a Christian 1st, and an American 2nd.

When someone gets saved they enter into the kingdom of God, which is a spiritual kingdom and incorporates the whole domain over-which the Lord Jesus Christ exercises spiritual control. This kingship refers to the whole realm in which the rule of man becomes the rule of God; it is the area where the law of God and of righteousness are pre-eminent.

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: “Except a man be born again (or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

We experience the kingdom of God through supernatural birth from above whereby we are supernaturally changed from a child of darkness to a child of God. Be assured, we cannot change ourselves. It must be a new birth.

Jesus continues in John 3:5, “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

One can only “see” and “enter” the kingdom of God by grace through faith. None of us can earn it. None of us deserve it. Before you pat yourself on the back, remember even faith is a gift from God.

 

[WPM]

I Agree, the Pre-Mill doctrine hangs their entire argument on Revelation 20:1-6 and the words (Thousand Years) we know well the words are descriptive of explaining the Lords eternal spiritual realm of no literal time

Yes it's a fact that no Kingdom or Mortal humans on this earth are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 "None" yet Pre-Millennialist claim there is "The Big Lie"!

Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).

1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

 

[WPM]

So what is Rev 20: 2,3,4,5,6,7. 1,000 yr reign talking about?

Rev 20:
[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[5] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

[6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

[7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”

This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.

The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.

We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.

Acts 17:28 tells us, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”

Through Christ – and what He has secured at Calvary – we now have our standing and inheritance. We possess a spiritual power within us from above since Pentecost that will assure us victory in the many spiritual challenges we face on this earth.

The New Testament respectfully states that we are what we are and we will be what we will be “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.” Ephesians 5:30 describes the spiritual oneness found in Christ: “For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Our “life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That means we “are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:11).

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realized in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvelous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realized these heavenly privileges.

This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice
and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.

We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, whilst our reign is assuredly future, it is also assuredly present.

 

[Truth7t7]

Amil is built on safer ground. Amil is built upon corroboration. Multiple strong and repeated Scriptures on each tenet of that position proves that doctrine. Let us discuss some of the water-tight support Amil enjoys for its understanding of Rev 20.

Much Scripture proves that Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Other Scripture shows the reigning of the dead in Christ now during the intra-Advent period (Revelation 20:4). See also Hebrews 12:18, 22-23, Revelation 6:9-10, 7:9-17, 15:1-3.

Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

There is a general resurrection/judgment (singular) of all mankind at the coming of Christ (Matthew 10:15, 12:36, 16:27, 25:31-46, John 5:21-30, 6:39-44, 54, 10:42, 11:21-27, 12:48, 17:30-32, 24:15, Acts 10:42, 17:30-31, Romans 2:4-8, 14:10-12, 1 Corinthians 3:6-8, 11-15, 1 Corinthians 4:5, 2 Corinthians 5:10, 2 Timothy 4:1-8, 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, 1 Timothy 5:24, Hebrews 9:27, 10:27, 2 Peter 2:9, 3:7, 1 Peter 4:1-5, 1 John 4:17, and Revelation 19:11, 20:11-15, 22:12).

Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

There is a climactic conflagration (Job 14:12-14, Isaiah 13:9-11, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8, Isaiah 65:17-21, Isaiah 66:22-24, Joel 2:3, Joel 2:10-11, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 24:29-30, Matthew 24:35-44, Mark 13:24-26, Luke 21:25-27, Romans 8:18-23, 1 Corinthians 15:23-24, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13, Hebrews 1:10-12, Revelation 6:13-17, Revelation 16:15-20, Revelation 19:11-16 and Revelation 20:11-15).

Perfection arrives with the age to come (Luke 20:27-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55, 2 Peter 3:3-13 Philippians 3:20-21, 1 Peter 4:3-7, Hebrews 1:10-12 and Revelation 20:11-15, 21:1-5).

The age to come possesses no mortals. The wicked are destroyed at His appearing (2 Samuel 22:9, Job 41:20-21, Psalm 18:7-8, 37:9-11, 50:1-6, 68:1-3, 97:3-5, Isaiah 11:4-5, 13:9, 30:33, 66:15-17, Joel 2:1-3, 2:10-11, Nahum 1:1, 5-6, Malachi 4:1, Luke 17:26-30, 20:34-36, Romans 8:19-23, 1 Corinthians 6:9, 13:8-13, 15:50-55, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3, II Thessalonians 1:4-10, Revelation 16:15-21, 19:11-18, Revelation 21-22).


1 Corinthians 13:12, Ephesians 4:13 and Revelation 10:5-7 show that the curtain coming down on the mystery of God, thus confirming we are at the end of time and entering into eternity when all will finally be revealed.

Well said and I agree, fully supported by scripture, all of what pre-millennialist deny

A Literal Kingdom exist with mortal humans for 1,000 years upon this earth, seen in Revelation 20:1-6? "A Lie"!

 

[Truth7t7]

1. You or others sometimes don't understand what I'm saying. Let me explain it in a way you may be able to understand. Let's say that a castle contains 100 rooms. And let's say I seriously damage every room in that castle. I could then say "the entire castle has been seriously damaged," and still not imply that the entire castle has been destroyed.

When talking about armies all across the earth, or large cities all across the earth, being destroyed, it doesn't mean that entire populations are extinguished, that the structures are completely razed, nor that none of those places exist at all any longer.

It just means that everywhere, each local area has been devastated. And since it is all across the planet, it is described in universal terms, not at all meaning the planet goes away. As I said, the Bible says that the earth is everlasting.

When Christ comes again, a battle will take place, which may very well be a major nuclear war. Entire cities across the globe would then be ruined, though the populations on earth would continue to exist. The elements would melt, and people in those cities would cry out that the sky is engulfed in smoke, making the heavens seem to disappear across the entire sky.

Biblical language does not express things in modern scientific terms, but in its own way of describing things, which is from the perspective of a person standing on the earth and looking up. He is not contemplating the earth as a globe. When he says it is destroyed, he is talking about a major civilization being extinguished, and not all the people in it.

Randy your claims of "Localized" destruction leaving surviving mortals behind is a sci-fi fairy tale found no place in scripture, the two mentions of scripture below silences your false claims

Randy it's amazing how far your denial of biblical truth will go, simple, clear, and before your eyes!

"The Fire Shall Try Every Man's Work"!

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

"The World And "ALL" That Dwell Therein!

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus said in Luke 17:21: “The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Jesus said in John 18:36, “My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.”

Colossians 1:18 says, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church.”

That means if you have given Christ kingship of your life then you are in the kingdom of God and the kingdom of God is in you!

Have you invited king Jesus into your heart? Then the kingdom of God is within you.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:33: “seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.”

In John 3:3 Jesus declared: “Except a man be born again (or born from above), he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

You don't know how to apply the eschatological Kingdom properly in these verses. The Kingdom of Heaven has always existed, but it took form on earth through Israel, and now through Christian nations. But this is just a temporary form of the Kingdom, and not the Kingdom to Come, the eschatological Kingdom. You seem unable or unwilling to distinguish them?

We sign up for the Kingdom now, but our hope is in heaven, with Christ. Our hope lies purely with him, where he is in his glorified state. If he is glorified, we may become glorified through him by being taken to him at the proper time. That time is *not yet.*

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ and the New Testament writers only recognize two overriding ages in their teaching – “this world/age” and “the world/age to come.” One is current, corrupt and temporal and the other is impending, perfect and eternal. One refers to mortal life on earth in the here-and-now, and the other refers to our eternal state. These terms are commonly used in the New Testament when contrasting the toil and trouble of our day with the glory and rest of the hereafter. These two common phrases are found in different places in the New Testament, along with several other similar expressions, referring to time and eternity. Basically, there is now and there is then – there is no in-between. The pivotal event that divides these two diverse ages is the glorious climactic return of Jesus Christ.

This is a distortion of the truth. Saying there is a "past" and a "future" to me doesn't mean the world is divided up only into two time periods. "Ages" tend to be directed, in biblical context, to periods of particular prophetic significance, such as when Israel was under judgment, and kept out of the place of blessing. We may classify "ages" differently, depending on how we're applying them.

The Age to Come was understood by the Jewish People to refer to the Messianic Age, or to the Kingdom Age. Amillennialists dismiss this because they think Israel no longer plays a role in prophecy, rendering the need for a "Kingdom Age" of no value. And they dismiss Jewish teaching on the Kingdom Age because they think Jewish teaching has lost validity.

But I can't do this with biblical truth. Though it seems as if Israel will never again be a "nation of God," the Bible indicates it shall be! And Israel's personal failures, as a nation, cannot render void their Scriptures and their prophecies!

Furthermore, the NT writers referred to the Age to Come as the "Kingdom Age" in the same way the Jews did. It is not just the end of the present age, but the beginning of a new age.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is a distortion of the truth. Saying there is a "past" and a "future" to me doesn't mean the world is divided up only into two time periods. "Ages" tend to be directed, in biblical context, to periods of particular prophetic significance, such as when Israel was under judgment, and kept out of the place of blessing. We may classify "ages" differently, depending on how we're applying them.

The Age to Come was understood by the Jewish People to refer to the Messianic Age, or to the Kingdom Age. Amillennialists dismiss this because they think Israel no longer plays a role in prophecy, rendering the need for a "Kingdom Age" of no value. And they dismiss Jewish teaching on the Kingdom Age because they think Jewish teaching has lost validity.

But I can't do this with biblical truth. Though it seems as if Israel will never again be a "nation of God," the Bible indicates it shall be! And Israel's personal failures, as a nation, cannot render void their Scriptures and their prophecies!

Furthermore, the NT writers referred to the Age to Come as the "Kingdom Age" in the same way the Jews did. It is not just the end of the present age, but the beginning of a new age.

Your claims of a Jewish Kingdom age upon this earth is a Zionist fairy tale, Randy's dream time in the book of Aesop's fables

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've was taught in my early Christian life that the 2nd Coming was the end of everything. It was too late to repent for those who chose not to believe, and they would go to Hell. Those who had accepted the Lord would inherit the Kingdom of Heaven forever. I was raised in Amil theology.

It's too bad that you didn't stick what what you were taught then because it's the truth. I notice that you didn't specifically address anything I said in my post. Why not? If you disagree with what I said, can you tell me why? Luke 20:34-36 indicates that those who are found to be worthy to obtain the age to come won't die anymore. So, where do these mortals come from that you believe will populate the age to come? Jesus clearly knew nothing of them or else He wouldn't have said that those who obtain the age to come won't die anymore.

If that has been your mindset, you would make perfect sense. If, on the other hand, the 2nd Coming is not the end-all of human existence, then perhaps unbelievers would get their 2nd chance at the Lord's Return.

Where is that taught in scripture, though? Please back up your points with scripture. You know, like I did. Otherwise, I find it to be very difficult to take you seriously.

Israel may achieve grace when the Lord comes back to them, just as he left, when he pours out on them the spirit of grace and a spirit of repentance.

Has He not being doing that for the past almost 2,000 years already? This idea of being given a second chance at His return is simply not taught anywhere in scripture. If you think it is, then show me where.

It really depends on how you were raised to think about the last day of the age--the end of everything, or a new beginning?

What I believe has nothing to do with what I was "raised to think", so I'm not really sure of what you're talking about here.

Well, I just quoted Zech 12-13, where Israel receives undeserved favor.

Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:7 are both quoted in the New Testament in a first coming context (see Matthew 26:28 and John 19:34-37). So, why are you relating Zechariah 12-13 to the second coming instead?

We read in Eze 36, where the same is true. We read that God will deliver Israel, never to be judged again--that has never happened. Paul in Rom 9-11 details how God has not given up on Israel--not just a remnant, but the whole nation of Israel.

God never has given up on them and has given them all the opportunity to be saved for the past 2,000 years. Do you not believe that? People like yourself act as if salvation has been postponed for Israelites until a future time. Not so!

The Israel of which all have been, are, and will be saved by way of the covenant Paul referenced from the prophecy in Isaiah 59:20-21, is spiritual Israel. The Israel of which not all from the nation of Israel are part (Romans 9:6-8). Romans 11 is not a prophecy about the future, as you imagine, it's a depiction of salvation for the past 2,000 years and continuing up to the second coming of Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Implies to you. Non-Christians calling Christians, non Christians, is also nonsensical.

I have no idea of what you were trying to say here. I can't make any sense of it. It has nothing to do with what I said. Can you try again?

Obviously in most things, you don't care at all what other Christians think.

That is completely false. Do you have anything to offer besides false accusations?

Yet you change the definition of a word, just so you can be hyper offended?

I'm not changing the definition of a word. I'm going by what the vast majority of people think of when they hear the word "cult". I understand that you're not like anyone else and kind of live in your own world. So, don't try to speak for anyone but yourself. The bottom line is that Christians should not be accusing other Christians of being in a cult. That should not be too hard to understand. I believe you are the only one who doesn't understand that.