The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Randy Kluth]

If I'm merely making the point that the term CAN be used figuratively, then it is valid.
Yes, you know that, but there are some who don't even allow that possibility. Believe me, they are out there. That's why we have to show them the scripture about God's promises to "a thousand generations" and the cattle on "a thousand hills" and so on.

You can say it if you want. But the fact remains, virtually all reasonable people know that the word "thousand" can be taken in several different ways. The problem, however, is that an effort is being made, often, to make use of an interpretive fallacy, one that wishes to find a "biblical use" of the word "thousand" and then apply it to the book of Revelation.

It means to purposely add things to it or take away from its intended meaning. I am not doing that!!

I don't think you are. However, you should be warned that allegorizing a message in the book of Revelation, where it is not justified, is condemned by Jesus. I should think your honest view that a "thousand years" can mean a symbolic thousand years is just an opinion. And I'm just stating that you should state it as such, to be safe.

Exaggerate much? I am not doing that! I try to take the literal text literally and the symbolic text symbolically. We all believe there is a mix of the two in the book, but we obviously disagree on how much is literal and how much is symbolic. I take the following passage literally when it comes to the scope of people that it says will be destroyed when Jesus returns.

Again, one cannot say that because a book contains lots of symbolism that everything stated in the book is to be taken as such. Each case stands on its own merits, which is the context. If the context is not explicitly suggestive of a symbolic application, it should be taken as literal.

What do Amils base their allegorization of the Millennium on? It seems to be an up front assumption that Israel has been cut off and replaced by the Church. That did not discourage Chiliasts, but ultimately, it led to a victory and domination by Amillennialists.

But today, with the resurrection of the state of Israel, we now have renewed faith in the ultimate salvation of national Israel. And so, Premillennialism has once again appeared in Christian history. Actually, it has never fully gone away.

This really illustrates the problem with Premillennialism, in general. What you are basically telling me here is that we should interpret Revelation 20 in isolation from the rest of scripture and then interpret the rest of scripture in light of how we interpret Revelation 20 in isolation. That is not a wise approach! We should form the foundation of our doctrine on clear scripture and then interpret scripture within highly symbolic books like Revelation accordingly. I interpret Revelation 20 in such a way that doesn't contradict what other scripture teaches. But, you're basically telling me I shouldn't do that. Unbelievable!

I most definitely wasn't doing that. I'm saying that because a book has a lot of symbolism it doesn't mean that everything in the book is to be taken symbolically. I could refer to the Devil as a lion, and then say that he is a vile liar. Though the "lion" image is symbolic, it doesn't mean calling him a "liar" is to be taken symbolically too! That would be irrational.

Other scripture teaches that Jesus reigns now (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, etc.), that we are priests of the Father and the Son now (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9), that all of the dead will be resurrected at generally the same time (Daniel 12:1-2, John 5:28-29) and that all people will be judged at the same time (Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, John 5:28-29). So, I interpret Revelation 20 accordingly instead of trying to change what those other scriptures say in light of interpreting Revelation 20 in isolation.

Yes, you're trying to "compare Scripture with Scripture, which is entirely reasonable. But that's not how one interprets a passage by its own context. One is systematic theology, and the other is the fine art of interpretation. So, we should ask the question: does Rev 20 teach, in context, a literal 1000 year reign of Christ? I would say yes.

Then, in comparing this passage with other passages, such as the judgment of the dead in Dan 12.1-2 I would have to try to systematize them, to see if they can harmonize. I would see the judgment of Antichrist at the 2nd Coming as being one form of "judgment," and the resurrection of the wicked dead at the end of the Millennium as another form of "judgment." Seen together, this judgment begins at the 2nd Coming, though the resurrection and final sentencing begins at the end of the Millennium. But yes, it's a reasonable question.

In Revelation 20 itself, I neither see anything that explicitly indicates whether it is figurative or literal. So, we can't determine that just from the Revelation 20 text itself. Do you not take other scripture into consideration when interpreting Revelation 20? Why wouldn't you?

I actually do the same as you. I was raised in an Amil environment and was perfectly happy with Christian doctrine without any interference from Millennial teachings. It really doesn't affect my belief in basic Christian doctrines.

And so, I see the Millennial teaching as something God wants us to know, and yet not necessary as a tool of speculation, nor a matter of salvation. I do view other Scriptures as possibly applicable, such as Dan 12.1-2. I just find the warning not to tamper with the meaning of Revelation more important. And since there is no overwhelming sense that it is symbolic, I just take it literally.

Not taking it literally makes a mess out of the narrative. "Thousand" is a nice round number, which in itself could suggest it is symbolic. But again, the narrative makes no sense unless it is take literally. If, however, the narrative was intended to be given as an allegory, it would make sense. But it is not given in that way.

 

[WPM]

You apparently failed to recognize that Lactantius only used extra-biblical and even non-Christian sources as a *confirmation* of his biblical beliefs?

Lactantius did not derive his main source from anything other than from the Bible. His interest was in deriving confirmation even from secular sources--not to indicate they were his main source.

lactantius divine institutes book 7 chapter 14
But we, whom the Holy Scriptures instruct to the knowledge of the truth, know the beginning and the end of the world, respecting which we will now speak in the end of our work, since we have explained respecting the beginning in the second book. Therefore let the philosophers, who enumerate thousands of ages from the beginning of the world, know that the six thousandth year is not yet completed, and that when this number is completed the consummation must take place, and the condition of human affairs be remodelled for the better, the proof of which must first be related, that the matter itself may be plain. ..

...And as then a mortal and imperfect man was formed from the earth, that he might live a thousand years in this world; so now from this earthly age is formed a perfect man, that being quickened by God, he may bear rule in this same world through a thousand years. But in what manner the consummation will take place, and what end awaits the affairs of men, if any one shall examine the divine writings he will ascertain. But the voices also of prophets of the world, agreeing with the heavenly, announce the end and overthrow of all things after a short time, describing as it were the last old age of the wearied and wasting world. But the things which are said by prophets and seers to be about to happen before that last ending comes upon the world, I will subjoin, being collected and accumulated from all quarters.

No. It was the opposite way around. His confusion is explained by the fact that he relied heavily upon the writings of the pagan Sibyl prophetesses in his works. Here is the evidence:

as the Sibyl testifies and says:--

"For then there shall be confusion of mortals throughout the whole earth, when the Almighty Himself shall come on His judgment-seat to judge the souls of the quick and dead, and all the world."

But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command.

Which the Sibyl proclaims in another place, as she utters her inspired predictions:--

"Hear me, ye mortals; an everlasting King reigns."

Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges.[1] But the nations shall not be entirely extinguished, but some shall be left as a victory for God, that they may be the occasion of triumph to the righteous, and may be subjected to perpetual slavery. About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God. After His coming the righteous shall be collected from all the earth, and the judgment being completed, the sacred city shall be planted in the middle of the earth, in which God Himself the builder may dwell together with the righteous, bearing rule in it.

And the Sibyl marks out this city when she says:--

"And the city which God made this He made more brilliant than the stars, and sun, and moon."

Then that darkness will be taken away from the world with which the heaven will be overspread and darkened, and the moon will receive the brightness of the sun, nor will it be further diminished: but the sun will become seven times brighter than it now is; and the earth will open its fruitfulness, and bring forth most abundant fruits of its own accord; the rocky mountains shall drop with honey; streams of wine shall run down, and rivers flow with milk: in short, the world itself shall rejoice, and all nature exult, being rescued and set free from the dominion of evil and impiety, and guilt and error. Throughout this time beasts shall not be nourished by blood, nor birds by prey; but all things shall be peaceful and tranquil. Lions and calves shall stand together at the manger, the wolf shall not carry off the sheep, the hound shall not hunt for prey; hawks and eagles shall not injure; the infant shall play with serpents.

In short, those things shall then come to pass which the poets spoke of as being done in the reign of Saturnus.

Whose error arose from this source,--that the prophets bring forward and speak of many future events as already accomplished. For visions were brought before their eyes by the divine Spirit, and they saw these things, as it were, done and completed in their own sight. And when fame had gradually spread abroad their predictions, since those who were uninstructed in the mysteries[2] of religion did not know why they were spoken, they thought that all those things were already fulfilled in the ancient ages, which evidently could not be accomplished and fulfilled under the reign of a man.[3] But when, after the destruction of impious religions and the suppression of guilt, the earth shall be subject to God,--

"The sailor[4] himself also shall renounce the sea, nor shall the naval pine Barter merchandise; all lands shall produce all things. The ground shall not endure the harrow, nor the vineyard the pruning hook; The sturdy ploughman also shall loose the bulls from the yoke. The plain shall by degrees grow yellow with soft ears of corn, The blushing grape shall hang on the uncultivated brambles, And hard oaks shall distil the dewy honey. Nor shall the wool learn to counterfeit various colours; But the ram himself in the meadows shall change his fleece, Now for a sweetly blushing purple, now for saffron dye; Scarlet of its own accord shall cover the lambs as they feed. The goats of themselves shall bring back home their udders distended with milk; Nor shall the herds dread huge lions."[5]

Which things the poet foretold according to the verses of the Cumaean Sibyl. But the Erythraean thus speaks:--

"But wolves shall not contend with lambs on the mountains, and lynxes shall eat grass with kids; boars shall feed with calves, and with all flocks; and the carnivorous lion shall eat chaff at the manger, and serpents shall sleep with infants deprived of their mothers."

And in another place, speaking of the fruitfulness of all things:--

"And then shall God give great joy to men; for the earth, and the trees, and the numberless flocks of the earth shall give to men the true fruit of the vine, and sweet honey, and white milk, and corn, which is the best of all things to mortals."

And another in the same manner:--

"The sacred land of the pious only will produce all these things, the stream of honey from the rock and from the fountain, and the milk of ambrosia will flow for all the just."

Therefore men will live a most tranquil life, abounding with resources, and will reign together with God; and the kings of the nations shall come from the ends of the earth with gifts and offerings, to adore and honour the great King, whose name shall be renowned and venerated by all the nations which shall be trader heaven, and by the kings who shall rule on earth.

"These are the things which are spoken of by the prophets as about to happen hereafter: but I have not considered it necessary to bring forward their testimonies and words, since it would be an endless task; nor would the limits of my book receive so great a multitude of subjects, since so many with one breath speak similar things; and at the same time, lest weariness should be occasioned to the readers if I should heap together things collected and transferred froth all; moreover, that I might confirm those very things which I said, not by my own writings, but in an especial manner by the writings of others, and might show that not only among us, but even with those very persons who revile us, the truth is preserved,[1] which they refuse to acknowledge.[2] But he who wishes to know these things more accurately may draw from the fountain itself, and he will know more things worthy of admiration than we have comprised in these books …

which the Sibyls say shall come to pass

 

[WPM]

Surely you understand the difference between use of the "strong man" analogy as a *principle* and reference to the "binding of Satan" in the latter days, when Antichrist is defeated at the 2nd Coming? Irenaeus indeed applied the "strong man" analogy to the defeat of Satan at the cross, because it requires a stronger one to defeat the one maintaining the condemnation.

But Satan isn't actually tied up, bound, and thrown into a bottomless pit at the Cross. Instead, he is simply rendered helpless before the almighty act of God in raising Jesus from the dead, not counting sins against those who repent in Jesus' name.

The actual act of binding Satan, and sending him into a prison, takes place, biblically, at the 2nd Coming. And Irenaeus distinguishes this event from the defeat of Satan at the Cross. Both events render Satan impotent. But only at the 2nd Coming is he actually bound and sent into prison.

It is difficult to reason with you. You are so besotted with Premil you cannot objectively and effectively analyze history or Scripture. I present key arguments which forbid your position and you totally ignore them, as if they were not given. You have to do this as your reasoning on this is blatantly in error. Your claims are wrong and untenable. You have approached history and Scripture with the same prejudiced mindset: how can I manipulate this to support my pet-doctrine. This is mistaken.

Sadly, you force your faulty theology upon the ancient writer and put words into his mouth that he did not say.

Here is what he said:

For this end did He put enmity between the serpent and the woman and her seed, they keeping it up mutually: He, the sole of whose foot should be bitten, having power also to tread upon the enemy’s head; but the other biting, killing, and impeding the steps of man, until the seed did come appointed to tread down his head,—which was born of Mary, of whom the prophet speaks: “You shall tread upon the asp and the basilisk; you shall trample down the lion and the dragon;” — indicating that sin, which was set up and spread out against man, and which rendered him subject to death, should be deprived of its power, along with death, which rules [over men]; and that the lion, that is, antichrist, rampant against mankind in the latter days, should be trampled down by Him; and that He should bind “the dragon, that old serpent” and subject him to the power of man, who had been conquered so that all his might should be trodden down. Now Adam had been conquered, all life having been taken away from him: wherefore, when the foe was conquered in his turn, Adam received new life (Against Heresies Book 3, Chapter 23, 7).

1. Irenaeus makes no mention of the second coming. Where is it? Please stop avoiding this!
2. Irenaeus makes it abundantly clear here that “the foe [Satan] was conquered.” He was not describing some future event. He was looking at a past victory which has resulted in an incredible ongoing spiritual victory for God’s people.
3. This is reinforced by the idea that he teaches that the said victory would be evidenced by Satan being subject to the power of man – the New Testament Church. This has been an ongoing reality for 2000 years. This is long been fulfilled. One just has to observe the gospels to see that. Satan is under the feet of the Church as they spread the good news of the Gospel throughout the nations. Through the binding of Satan, the Church has gained power over Satan. The ancient patriarch relates the binding of the devil to the bruising of Satan’s head. He shows, that through this Satan was subjected “to the power of man, who had been conquered so that all his might should be trodden down.” Various Scripture support this. In Luke 9:1 Jesus “called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils.” In Luke 10:17 the disciples testified: “Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.” He responded: “And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:18-19).

 

[WPM]

Satan is not destroyed ever! Irenaeus knew this! Satan is destroyed, in a sense, when Antichrist is destroyed. It is his *kingdom* that is destroyed on earth--not his existence!

Evil is destroyed and imprisoned at the 2nd Coming. But it is forever dealt with by fire at the end of the Millennium. That's when all evil is committed to the Lake of Fire. However, evil is initially defeated at the 2nd Coming, at which time Satan begins his imprisonment. He is let go for only a very short time at the end of the Millennium, in preparation for his final destiny.

There you go again: avoid the evidence and force your views upon what Irenaeus taught. By being stubborn and bull-headed and ignoring the actual evidence, you are totally discrediting anything else you say. This could not be clearer. Your whole thesis has been totally demolished at every turn on this thread. It has to be one of the most one-sided discussions i have ever engaged in. You have zero evidence here.

Irenaeus believed that Satan will be destroyed at the Second Advent! You have been careful to duck around this in your posts. Irenaeus lists the resurrection at the coming of Christ as the time when the curse is finally removed, incorruption is introduced and death and the devil are eliminated. This climactic portrayal fits consistently with the Chiliast vision of future state. There is no space for sin and sinner, death and disease, war and terror, Satan and his demons. We are looking at a perfect pristine arrangement.

There shall in truth be a common joy consummated to all those who believe unto life, and in each individual shall be confirmed the mystery of the Resurrection, and the hope of incorruption, and the commencement of the eternal kingdom, when God shall have destroyed death and the devil. For that human nature and flesh which has risen again from the dead shall die no more; but after it had been changed to incorruption, and made like to spirit, when the heaven was opened, [our Lord] full of glory offered it (the flesh) to the Father (Fragments from the Lost Writings of Irenaeus, L.).​

The glorification of God’s people described in this ancient text occurs at the second coming. It is here that this corruptible will take on incorruption. This Chiliast father teaches that every vestige of the Fall is removed when Christ returns never to arise again. The approaching earth will be totally different from the current corrupt one and will be totally renewed and eternally free of corruption.

Irenaeus reckons that man’s sinful makeup must be changed in order to allow him to grace a future millennial earth. Every trace of the fall must be divested before entering into that new arrangement. This is accomplished by way of glorification. Whilst we have “earthly” bodies now, at the Lord’s Coming we will have new “spiritual” bodies. Our current bodies that are corruptible must be changed into incorruptible ones, so that no trace of the curse remains. Paul presents glorification as the means by which this supernatural metamorphous occurs.

According to this early writer, the saints will undergo the same simultaneous transformation that creation experiences. The creature is thus then adequately prepared to inherit the new incorrupt glorified earth. Both can now live in perfect harmony in God’s new order. This arrangement is shown to never again be blighted by the bondage of corruption. Man and creation enter into a new irreversible ongoing arrangement.

The ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire (Against Heresies Book I, Chapter X, 1 – Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world).​

Again, the coming of Christ is here represented as glorious and climatic. It involves God’s righteous final judgment upon all wickedness. There is no indication that sin and sinners survive the Lord’s future return. Wicked man and wicked angels are both collectively shown to experience “everlasting fire.”

This is classic Amil. This completely refutes the claims of Premils that Irenaeus was one of them. He wasn't! Ancient Chilaism and modern Premil are as far apart as day and night.

 

[WPM]

I assure you, if RT wasn't the best way of abbreviating our disagreement, I wouldn't use it. But we simply have to abbreviate when we can.

That is a total lie, and you know it. You do it to be provocative. You like to stir the pot. Why can you not tell the truth? Even Premils have counseled you over the years to stop hurling it, but you refuse. You like to antagonize on this matter. You are quick to speak on behalf of of Amils and slow to listen to how your brethren actually understand the whole dynamic between Israel and the Church. You commonly disparagingly throw the “Replacement Theology” charge at those they disagree with, without any effort of trying to ascertain what they really believe. You allege that their evangelical opponents believe (1) the Church has replaced ethnic Israel and that (2) God has no further future plans for the nation of Israel. You claim such without any factual or fair basis for doing so.

You create a straw man argument either through genuine ignorance, as a willful attempt to twist, smear and discredit their brethren who believe that God has only ever had one people from the beginning. Regardless, your charge is a logical fallacy. Despite being robustly challenged and repeatedly corrected, you continue to hurl this depreciatory slur in an attempt to justify your own partial teaching. It is employed by you to be deliberately provocative and intentionally misrepresent their opponent’s position. When all is said and done, this only serves to expose the weakness of the Premil position, rather than carry any real, valid or accurate theological credence.

The teaching of the Church for most of its history has rejected the idea that there is any theologically distinction between Jews and Gentiles in Christ during the new covenant era. They believe there has only ever been one spiritual people from the start. These believers do not claim to hold to “Replacement Theology,” but rather ‘Expansion Theology’ meaning there is a continuity between God’s people in the Old and New Testament. Other terms describe the same position like ‘Continuity Theology’, ‘Inclusion Theology’ and ‘Remnant Theology’. Some use comparable expressions like ‘Addition Theology’ or ‘Fulfilment Theology’. Another lesser-used expression is ‘Messianic Fulfillment Theology’. Regardless of which one of these phrases is preferred, its advocates believe that the New Testament Church (assembly) is not a replacement of Israel, neither is it a new Israel, but it is an extension and continuation of true faithful Israel. This is supported by the fact that the inception of the new covenant didn’t mark the end of the Abrahamic lineage of faith but rather the enlargement of the same.

 

[WPM]

1,000 generations.

1,000 hills.

Suppose we were required to take these references to “a thousand generations” literally, then, it would indicate an actual earthly time period of around 40,000 years – 40 years multiplied by 1000. However, it is NOT in the slightest suggesting a thousand literal generations. It is simply telling us that the covenant God made with Abraham and his seed is true, boundless and eternal. Significantly, our last references closes with the truth that this glorious Divine pact is “an everlasting covenant.” Psalm 105:8 supports, saying, “He hath remembered his covenant for ever.”

Psalms 111:10 supports this supposition, saying, “he hath commanded his covenant for ever.”

Does Christ only own the cattle on one thousand hills or does he own them all? Of course there is no way that this passage suggests that Christ only owns the cattle on one thousand hills. Rather, He owns every beast on every hill, thus revealing His omnipotence. The statement reference the “thousand hills” is preceded y the introductory comment: “For every beast of the forest is mine.” This is simply presented in such a way as to express the unfathomable authority and power of the living God. It beautifully correlates with the truth expressed in 1 Corinthians 10:28, which states, “the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.”

The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.

 

[Truth7t7]

The term “a thousand” is thus used to in some way express the nature and awesome power of Almighty God. The phrase is used to portray the Sovereignty of God and His supreme kingship over all creation. We must clearly acknowledge that the figure ‘a thousand’ is consistently and symbolically employed, throughout the Word of God, to denote an unfathomable amount or a vast period.

I Agree!

Today the numerical words used would be "A Billion" or "A Trillion"

Yes "Thousand" is nothing more than a large number showing a big number of symbolic greatness, it's that simple

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Its still the activity of satan.
satan was unable to go forth in all his power of deception as his agent has been restrained until the appointed time.

People who reject the gospel in this age will be JUDGED AND CONDEMNED when the Lord destroys satans activity by the power and glory of his coming. Those who believe are the only ones who can possibly stand in his glorious presence when he comes.

Satan is unable to go forward with all his schemes because he is restrained by God. HIs son who is the antichrist will merely manifest his fathers schemes.

Your second paragraph, I agree 100%

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why would that be? I don't believe that makes any sense. It is not typical for the Bible to leave out such details. I don't believe for a second that such details would be left out.

The bible regularly leaves out the why's of what God does. He will do what He does. If He chooses to tell us, so be it. If He chooses to not to tell us why- so be it also. He is not answerable to us, nor needs our counsel or advice.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Similarly, I don't interpret the thousand years of Revelation 20 in isolation, but based on the whole counsel of Scripture based on all verses that talk about Christ reigning, His people reigning as priests, the resurrection of the dead and the day of judgment.

And the only place that puts a time frame on these things is REv. 20. Jesus has to reign for a temporal time for once He defeats sin and death as is described in Rev. 20, He hands His kingdom back to the Father and submits HImself to the Father.

 

[farouk]

The bible regularly leaves out the why's of what God does. He will do what He does. If He chooses to tell us, so be it. If He chooses to not to tell us why- so be it also. He is not answerable to us, nor needs our counsel or advice.

@Ronald Nolette God is God.................

 

[Ronald Nolette]

That was not the point. The point is that we need spiritual discernment to understand things like this. Do you disagree? I'm not sure why you would. Interpreting scripture is not the same as reading a factual news article that simply reports everything that occurred straightforwardly in chronological order in such a way that anyone can understand it. Just read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and you should see that is clearly not the case.

And that discernment comes from teh Holy Spirit. You forget that when Paul and the others wrote- what they wrote was radical for the day! It is common for us 2 millenia removed from their origins. But people to day still reject the New Testament as written. Because to accept them requires spiritual understanding (discernment) which comes form the Holy Spirit.

YOu forget that all the epistles are about salvation apart from works ( as was the norm in that day) and that works are a fruit of being saved, as well as the physical resurrection.

Discernment is not reading the Scriptures and coming up with other meanings from what is written as do amils, covenant theology et.al.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you saying they can understand it with their own understanding? I hope you're not saying that because that is far from the truth. Just read 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 and you should see what I'm talking about.

The average believer has the Holy Spirit. we don't need some special "intrerpreter" to tell us what god meant by the words He wrote! How to apply them? Yes! How to understand them? No for ALL BELIEVERS already have the Holy Spirit.

 

[farouk]

And that discernment comes from teh Holy Spirit. You forget that when Paul and the others wrote- what they wrote was radical for the day! It is common for us 2 millenia removed from their origins. But people to day still reject the New Testament as written. Because to accept them requires spiritual understanding (discernment) which comes form the Holy Spirit.

YOu forget that all the epistles are about salvation apart from works ( as was the norm in that day) and that works are a fruit of being saved, as well as the physical resurrection.

Discernment is not reading the Scriptures and coming up with other meanings from what is written as do amils, covenant theology et.al.

@Ronald Nolette Yes, we need the Holy Spirit's help to understand the Word; hence it's so important to pray before Bible study in order to acknowledge our dependence.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Again, it wasn't my point to say whose spiritual discernment is right, it's my point to say that we can't understand things like this without spiritual discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit. It simply is not just spelled out for us the way some people imagine. If that was God's intention then why is there so much symbolism in the book of Revelation?

Yes it is spelled out. sometimes partially and only through study do we learn the whole point of God. Especially in Eschatology and the millenial kingdom- it is scatterd throughout Scripture so one must dig onto the word to put together the whole puzzle.

I cannot give you a definite of why God used so much symbolism. I can give my7 opinions, but I do not know how right they are. Some symbols are easily defined for the Scripture always defines Scripture symbols. some we have to wait and see EXACTLY what God was referring to. But many of them ARE MINOR DETAILS .

Once again every believer has discernment because they have the Spirit! Discernment is not looking beneath or between the lines, or uncover hidden messages in the plain word. That is reinterpretation and no tdiscernment.

 

[farouk]

The average believer has the Holy Spirit. we don't need some special "intrerpreter" to tell us what god meant by the words He wrote! How to apply them? Yes! How to understand them? No for ALL BELIEVERS already have the Holy Spirit.

@Ronald Nolette Indeed; 'if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His' (Romans 8:9).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I would consider some of the things we discuss on this forum to be the deeper things of God. They go beyond the basics of Christianity. Paul taught that in order to understand those kinds of things we can only discern them through the Holy Spirit's teaching. And you are saying this is like a cult mentality! Are you kidding me? Getting discernment from the Holy Spirit is far from a cult mentality. Paul said it's a requirement for understanding the deep things of God. Are you going to say Paul was wrong?

No Paul was 100% right! But He was not speaking of taking a passage and subtly reinterpreting it to alter its meaning! That is what amil does. Remember we know the deep things of God if we pursue Him. The world considers the bible foolish. They do not understand how Jesus death wipes away sin. Most reject the physical resurrection. Most reject god living in us! Most reject hell. Most reject salvation by faith through grace alone- this is what is meant by discernment. Accepting the message as declared and not subtly altered like the cults do.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is your point here? My goodness. Hopefully, what I've said earlier in this post makes it more clear as to the point I was making. Questions like these make it clear that you didn't have a clue about the point I was making before.

Because when people disagree as do those in all these subjects who has spiritual discernment and who doesn't. You accept a physical resurrection because it is written in a literal form. You reject a literal 1000 year kingdom though that also is written in a literal form. I know why I read a passage as a euphemism or idiom. it is not based on any man or past teachers. What is your rule to accept a passage as speaking euphemistically or idiopmatically?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Hello?! That is exactly what I've been telling you all along. Holy goodness. I feel like I'm in the twilight zone here.

So is that why you interpret 1000 years symbolically, because a natural man would read 1000 years and accept it as 1000 years?

 

[Truth7t7]

And the only place that puts a time frame on these things is REv. 20. Jesus has to reign for a temporal time for once He defeats sin and death as is described in Rev. 20, He hands His kingdom back to the Father and submits HImself to the Father.

Revelation 20 teaches absolutely nothing about a kingdom on this earth