The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[farouk]

Because when people disagree as do those in all these subjects who has spiritual discernment and who doesn't. You accept a physical resurrection because it is written in a literal form. You reject a literal 1000 year kingdom though that also is written in a literal form. I know why I read a passage as a euphemism or idiom. it is not based on any man or past teachers. What is your rule to accept a passage as speaking euphemistically or idiopmatically?

I've heard it argued that "the cattle on a thousand hills are Thine"; therefore this supposedly proves there will not be a millennium..........

 

[Truth7t7]

You accept a physical resurrection because it is written in a literal form. You reject a literal 1000 year kingdom though that also is written in a literal form. I know why I read a passage as a euphemism or idiom. it is not based on any man or past teachers. What is your rule to accept a passage as speaking euphemistically or idiopmatically?

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[farouk]

Revelation 20 teaches absolutely nothing about a kingdom on this earth

Revelation 21 speaks of a new earth.........

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Of course not! That has absolutely nothing to do with the point I'm making. Yes, sometimes scripture is straightforward like that. And sometimes it's not. You sometimes seem to act like it's always straightforward. Clearly, that is not. Otherwise, even the natural man could understand all of scripture, but that is not the case.

No the natural man would not understand Scripture even if all the symbols are removed! That is shown because they reject the gospel. Biblical understanding means belief, not just an acceptance of the facts. but the majority also reject teh facts. Once again you are leaving a door opened to require us to turn to a man to know what Scripture says.

Now I am not bashing teachers. I am one. We teach what people have not had a chance to study or have studied and are still unsure of its full meaning! What teh church doesn't need is people who subtly say, "I know this passage says 1,000 years 6 times, but it doesn't mean that."

See the other 4 times 1,000 appears in Scripture it is constructed with a comp[arative word or a comparative passage, or that other Scriptures that give further clarification tells us it is not literal. so one knows it is to be taken idiomatically. Like the passage where God says He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Well He does, but He also owns all the cattle on the hills plains and barns etc. So we know fro teh rest of Scripture to not take this literally, though it is written literally.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've heard it argued that "the cattle on a thousand hills are Thine"; therefore this supposedly proves there will not be a millennium..........

People forget thoat a term used idiomatically one place does not mean it is an idiom everytime it appears!

 

[farouk]

People forget thoat a term used idiomatically one place does not mean it is an idiom everytime it appears!

@Ronald Nolette Kind of the argument of political campaigners, right? because one person someplace is or is not something or other, therefore this supposedly proves something else about everybody everywhere............

 

[Truth7t7]

Now I am not bashing teachers. I am one. We teach what people have not had a chance to study or have studied and are still unsure of its full meaning! What teh church doesn't need is people who subtly say, "I know this passage says 1,000 years 6 times, but it doesn't mean that."

See the other 4 times 1,000 appears in Scripture it is constructed with a comp[arative word or a comparative passage, or that other Scriptures that give further clarification tells us it is not literal. so one knows it is to be taken idiomatically. Like the passage where God says He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. Well He does, but He also owns all the cattle on the hills plains and barns etc. So we know fro teh rest of Scripture to not take this literally, though it is written literally.

I Disagree, Teaching Error in a pre-trib Rapture and Millennial Kingdom on earth

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 21 speaks of a new earth.........

Revelation 21 speaks of the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem

 

[farouk]

I Disagree, Teaching Error in a pre-trib rapture and Millennial Kingdom on earth

1 Corinthians 11.26 seems to link the church specifically with the Rapture, implying that other Scriptures about events on earth later are not ones which must happen before the Lord returns for His church.

 

[Truth7t7]

1 Corinthians 11.26 seems to link the church specifically with the Rapture, implying that other Scriptures about events on earth later are not ones which must happen before the Lord returns for His church.

Scripture teaches the Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[WPM]

belief in the eventual restoration of the nation Israel waned, even though Jesus and Paul had both asserted it, as in line with the Prophets. It was thought that any notion of Israel's restoration, in association with a Millennial Kingdom, had to be suspect as a kind of reinstitution of Jewish Legalism.

This is another invention by you.

List all the supposed ECFs who taught this before the belief in the "restoration of the nation Israel waned"?

 

[jeffweeder]

No Paul was 100% right! But He was not speaking of taking a passage and subtly reinterpreting it to alter its meaning! That is what amil does.

I sincerely believe the opposite is true. Premill does that. Amill uses many NT scriptures to corroborate their interpretation of Rev 20.
Premill struggles to do this.

 

[Truth7t7]

I sincerely believe the opposite is true. Premill does that. Amill uses many NT scriptures to corroborate their interpretation of Rev 20.
Premill struggles to do this.

I Agree!

2 Peter 3:8 below clearly interprets Revelation 20 (Thousand Years)

It's nothing more than symbolic speech showing the human mind, the Lord's eternal spiritual realm has no earthly time, it's that simple

Jesus Christ The Alpha/Omega

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

 

[jeffweeder]

So is that why you interpret 1000 years symbolically, because a natural man would read 1000 years and accept it as 1000 years?

The natural man would do well to listen to what the Spirit is saying.

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear and heed what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes [the world through believing that Jesus is the Son of God] will not be hurt by the second death (the lake of fire).’

All one needs to do is believe and follow Jesus and not come into the judgment, just like John writes in Jn 5.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.


John is saying the same thing in Rev 20. Those who share in Jesus who is the resurrection and the life will not be hurt by the second death (judgment)

REV 20
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years


Nothing here of a physical resurrection that would contradict the other passages

 

[farouk]

Scripture teaches the Church will be present on earth to witness the great tribulation and second coming of Jesus Christ

Luke 21:25-29KJV
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Aren't they tribulation saints in Luke 21 (and Matthew 24)?

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. It was the opposite way around. His confusion is explained by the fact that he relied heavily upon the writings of the pagan Sibyl prophetesses in his works. Here is the evidence...

I stand by the quotes I gave you. You just ignored them, and double down.

This is another invention by you.

List all the supposed ECFs who taught this before the belief in the "restoration of the nation Israel waned"?

You read me wrong. I said that *Jesus and Paul* taught the restoration of the nation Israel. At some point between them and the Church Fathers, belief in the restoration of Israel "waned." I wasn't identifying *any* Church Father that believed in the restoration of Israel. In fact, that is the entire reason that Premil fell out, as well, because the Kingdom of God, in the OT Prophets, was tied to the restoration of Israel. If the Jews had failed under the Law, and prospects of their eventual restoration was grim, there was no need for a future Kingdom of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is a total lie, and you know it. You do it to be provocative. You like to stir the pot. Why can you not tell the truth?

The pot calling the kettle black. Your needless negative commentary will most often be ignored.

 

[covenantee]

*Jesus and Paul* taught the restoration of the nation Israel.

Matthew 21
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There you go again: avoid the evidence and force your views upon what Irenaeus taught.

I'm going to ignore your quotes if you continually ignore mine. I gave you a direct quote of Irenaeus indicating he believed the binding of Satan was an event to take place at the 2nd Coming, the principle of the binding of the strong man notwithstanding.

You constantly use the principle of the binding of the strong man as evidence that Irenaeus referred to the Cross, and not to the 2nd Coming. But the clear evidence is that the binding of the strong man is a principle that he applied to the Cross, whereas the binding of Satan is an event to take place in the latter days when Antichrist is defeated at the 2nd Coming of Christ.

You *completely ignore this!* So why should I bother listening to your rants when you fail to even acknowledge the arguments I bring?

 

[Randy Kluth]

He was Amil, but I doubt he participated in Amil vs. Premil debates at the time. Anyway, for some reason he didn't realize that some Premils are not aware that the word "thousand" is sometimes used figuratively in scripture.

Brother, I was raised in an Amil Lutheran Church, and spent the 1st 19 years of my life there, being confirmed as a Lutheran. Nobody even talked about the Millennium because obviously we didn't believe it was anything more than a symbol. I didn't have a clue whether it symbolized the present age or the eternal age!

So no, I never had any debates. But I certainly don't think Premils are clueless about how the word "thousand" can be used as a saying, or figuratively!

How many Premils have used the saying, "I've heard that a thousand times?" But as a metaphor, maybe you have a point. It doesn't seem to come natural to think of a "thousand" as a metaphorical period of time.