The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Ronald Nolette]

It marks a person as having their loyalties with this evil world rather than with God. Revelation 13:8 indicates that ALL whose names are not written in the book of life worship the beast. So, whatever the beast is, literally all unbelievers follow after it and are loyal to it. Jesus said that we believers are not of the world. Unbelievers are of the world. They love this evil world and what it has to offer which are only temporal things and things that are against God's will.

So I don't misunderstand you, the mark of teh beast in revelation is simnply being unsaved and god knowing it?

I believe the number 666 is a symbolic representation of fallen mankind. English translations differ, but I believe the correct translation of Revelation 13:18 is that the number of the beast is the number of mankind rather than the number of an individual man. The number 7 is commonly known to represent God's perfection and mankind falls short of that. The fact that there are three 6s may just be to emphasize just how short of God's glory and standards that mankind falls.

Well at least you call it a belief and not a fact. but based on what you just wrote John misunderstood God anderred in writing sacred Scripture. He wrote man singular not plural.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

I guess you never heard of phylacteries and Mezuzahs then.

This was not talking about the Israelites literally tying God's commandments on their hands and literally binding them on their foreheads. It's symbolic for obeying the commandments with their actions (using their hands) and with keeping them in the forefronts of their minds at all times. So, in the case of the mark of the beast I believe it is a symbolic representation of people's actions reflecting their loyalty to the beast (to the world and its evil ways) rather than to God. And having the mark in one's forehead represents someone's beliefs and thoughts being in line with the beast.

Do you think "the seal of God" written on the foreheads of believers is a literal seal? If not, then why do you think the mark of the beast has to be a literal mark?

Maybe then the other commands are symbolic meanings as well like impressing them on children and talking about them everywhere you go?

for all we know it can very well be literal mark in the spirit realm. We haven't travelled there so we can't say for sure!

I noticed this:

You don't have time to read Gods Word that Iposted to give you the evidence you asked for, but you certainly have enough time to write these lengthy answers. Interesting?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How do you figure? My beliefs are very similar to his, overall. My beliefs are certainly much closer to his than, say, a partial preterist Amil.

Well god is exact and doesn't keep score like in horseshoes where close enough counts. Because you both declare your "reinterpretation" of the words of the Bible are based on spiritual discernment- they should match or one or both of you have gotten some bad discernement.

Where is your scriptural evidence to support this claim? You're always all talk and no scripture.

Well I gave you many Scriptures and you just said you had no time for the Scriptures I post- so you are lying hwith thatfalse claim.

But here:

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Hope that is not too many verses so you don't have time to read them.

You need to show why God would ins[pire teh marriage first when the events of Jesus return are inspired later. but then again you think John was wrong when he said the mark was the number of a man when in your opinion it is supposed to be mankind.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It says "the flesh of all people", not some of all kinds of people. You are badly twisting the text to fit your doctrine. It clearly says all people and it's people of all kinds. As in all people who are still on the earth at that point. The text is written in such a way to be all-inclusive. No unbelievers are excluded. That is what it implies by including everyone whether they are free or slaves, small or great.

Wrong. you are failing in basic grammar. "pas", "pantos" and the other derivatives of the english word "all" in greek have three meanings

!. each and every single thing mentioned
2. everyone of a specific category.
3. every sort of person.

Context determines which is used. And given that Jesus returns to a specific geographic point on earth (the region of Petra) to battle the antichrist and his armies, we know it does not mean every single individual.

It can mean 2 or three for in the armies that the antichrist marshalled from the world would have those listed in Rev 19:17-19, either is corrrect.

but as the antichrist did not gather every single human being to fight against Jesus in the battle of the great day of God

Revelation 16:12-14
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


the normal common ususal understanding of people is that kings gather their armies, not every single citizen including babies and infants. God may have wished to keep the truth from unbelieving Israel as Jesus said in Matt. 13 but not from people who seek to serve Him.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Is your Caps Lock key stuck?

You love to strain at gnats don't you?

Good grief, man. That is not at all what we're saying. We believe that believers will all be changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to Christ in the air when He returns. We believe He will then destroy everyone else left on the earth.

So you believe in that "last minute" before He lands on earth rapture.

That is a "problem" that we all have since we all understand that some of the text is literal and some is symbolic and we all have to discern which is which in any given verse or passage.

So for all you can be absolutely sure of, I could be far more right and you far more wrong in understanding when and where Scripture uses symbols?

I believe the bible is the key to knowing when something symbolic is said. and I also believe the bible defines the symbols for us. God knows how corrupted even the most sincere believer can be so He leaves nothing to chance concerning His Word.

YOu and WPM have now on record here have declared that Peter, Paul and John were all misled in writing some of Sacred Scripture.

And in case you have forgotten already or are too embarrassed about it, let me remind you:

1. You both agree Satan is decapitated, impotent, bound and abyssed. Peter an Paul wrote the exact opposite.
2. You believe John was wrong when he said the mark of the beast is the mark of a man singular!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Where are you getting this nonsense from?

\Are you telling me you got all the things you have been saying you believe in here just by reading the bible?

What are you talking about here? Why can't it mean all of the dead as well as all of the living?

Mark 13:26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.

Why? Because God said in language a second grader can understand that The church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel commences,
That when Jesus returns before the kingdom he establishes on earth there is a "first resurrection". Then after the 1000 years there is a second resurrection that the lake of fire has power and authority over!

That is not true. All you are able to do is misrepresent Amils. You can't counter our arguments with a coherent argument of your own, so you resort to this instead.

Well as no one knows when you take something literally and when you take something symbolically it is one fo the easiest things to do to misrepresent you unintentionally. Teh last great study of covenant eschatology I did was from the text by Loraine Boettner. and then many aothors of the varied persuasions of covenant eschatology, but those are over 20 years old. You may have all reinterpreted their reinterpretations sin ce then.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

Well gog is arulers title like King or prince etc. Magog is both a tribal name and place,th eidentity of these I will not say for certain what they mean. Gog is probably some leader after Satan is loosed, and Magog I am not sure.

You think that it's referring to a literal place on earth called Armageddon rather than it being a symbolic reference. But, do you also think that the following is referring to the literal Gog and Magog?

Well as God gathers them there and the antichrist marshals his forces there yes I do. Especially seeing there is a place on earth called in English Armageddon. It is comprised of two places-- tel megiddo (the mount of megiddo) and the valley of Jezreel. I have been to both and the amazing thing is that teh valley of jezrrel can hold tens of millions of modern armed forces to marshal for battle- literally as Gods Word says.

There is nothing to say the antichrist is not an individual, nor the false prophet nor armegeddon, nor the thousand years. It almost seems like you and WPM reinterpret things because they seem fantastical.

 

[covenantee]

Wrong. you are failing in basic grammar. "pas", "pantos" and the other derivatives of the english word "all" in greek have three meanings

Your self-vaunted grammatical prowess has betrayed you again.

From Revelation 19:18 in the Greek:

3956 [e]
pantōn
πάντων ,
of all
Adj-GMP

The specific word is not pas or pantos, it is pantōn.

The definition of which is: All, the whole, every kind of.

There are your three meanings.

We don't take grammar lessons from someone who cannot spell "English" or "Greek".

!. each and every single thing mentioned
2. everyone of a specific category.
3. every sort of person.

What's the link for this?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well some kind of government and reprobation are very vague and wide open to varied "interpretations"

He was more specific than that. Read it again. Carefully this time.

But it is you and he that have said that this beast has been here 2000+ years. After all that time if all you can give is a vague answer ......

We have both given more than just a vague answer. You apparently don't have enough of an attention span to read what we actually say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

\Are you telling me you got all the things you have been saying you believe in here just by reading the bible?

I did what the Bereans did. I saw people on a forum talking about it and it made me curious (I was premil at the time, but never really studied the topic in depth before), so I then studied the scriptures for myself to see what was being said was true. And I learned a lot of things on my own in the process. How did you come to believe what you believe?

Why? Because God said in language a second grader can understand that The church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel commences,

LOL. Show me where scripture teaches that. I'm sure it must teach that very explicitly since you're saying even a second grader can understand it. So, show me the scripture. I'm tired of just seeing your words without any scriptural support to back them up.

Well as no one knows when you take something literally and when you take something symbolically it is one fo the easiest things to do to misrepresent you unintentionally. Teh last great study of covenant eschatology I did was from the text by Loraine Boettner. and then many aothors of the varied persuasions of covenant eschatology, but those are over 20 years old. You may have all reinterpreted their reinterpretations sin ce then.

I don't get my interpretations from people like that.

Well gog is arulers title like King or prince etc. Magog is both a tribal name and place,th eidentity of these I will not say for certain what they mean. Gog is probably some leader after Satan is loosed, and Magog I am not sure.

What Gog and Magog represent is right there in the text and it's not what you're saying at all.

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

In verse 8 "Gog and Magog" figuratively represent "the nations in the four corners of the earth". This is similar to how "the great city" in Revelation 11:7 "is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt". In this case the people around the world who oppose "the camp of the saints" are referred to as "Gog and Magog". It says they number "like the sand on the seashore", so it's talking about people, not nations. But, it's clearly not referring to "some leader" as you said. It's clearly not referring to the same Gog and Magog that existed long ago. It's not referring to a literal place on earth. The same is true regarding Armageddon. It's a figurative reference. The same is true of Babylon. It's not an earthly place, it's a figurative, spiritual entity.

Well as God gathers them there and the antichrist marshals his forces there yes I do. Especially seeing there is a place on earth called in English Armageddon.

There was is a place that was once called Magog on earth as well, yet that is not what Revelation 20:8 is referring to.

There is nothing to say the antichrist is not an individual,

John taught that the antichrist, or antichrist, is anyone who denies Christ. Not just one person.

nor the false prophet nor armegeddon, nor the thousand years. It almost seems like you and WPM reinterpret things because they seem fantastical.

That's complete nonsense. As we have both said multiple times before, our doctrine is primarily founded on literal, straightforward passages. Such as 2 Peter 3:10-13. Taken literally that passage indicates that the heavens and the earth will be burned up and renewed when Christ returns, resulting in the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of His second coming. In John 5:28-29, Jesus indicated that there is one future event coming during which all of the dead will be raised. In passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46 and Acts 17:31, it indicates that all people will be judged at the same time. So, by interpreting those passages literally the way we do, are we reinterpreting them because they seem fantastical? Clearly not. So, your false accusations towards us do nothing to support your arguments.

 

[WPM]

YOu and WPM have now on record here have declared that Peter, Paul and John were all misled in writing some of Sacred Scripture.

And in case you have forgotten already or are too embarrassed about it, let me remind you:

1. You both agree Satan is decapitated, impotent, bound and abyssed. Peter an Paul wrote the exact opposite.
2. You believe John was wrong when he said the mark of the beast is the mark of a man singular!

Where do you come up with this stuff?

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So I don't misunderstand you, the mark of teh beast in revelation is simnply being unsaved and god knowing it?

Basically. It is the spiritual opposite of having the seal of God. What is your understanding of the seal of God?

Well at least you call it a belief and not a fact. but based on what you just wrote John misunderstood God anderred in writing sacred Scripture. He wrote man singular not plural.

Do you ever take the time to study what the original Greek words were and what they mean? I'm sure you understand that the New Testament was not originally written in English.

The Greek word translated sometimes as "a man" and sometimes as "man" or "mankind" in Revelation 13:18 is anthrōpos (Strong's G444). It can refer to an individual man, an individual person, all people (mankind in general), people in general, and it also has other definitions. It is used in verses like these:

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man G444 shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. G444

Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, G444 that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Can you see here how the word is used to refer to people or mankind in general? So, your claim that God wrote it as a singular man as if that is a fact is baseless. You did not do your due diligence here to see what the word actually means. Yes, it can refer to an individual man, but it often is used to refer to mankind in general.

Maybe then the other commands are symbolic meanings as well like impressing them on children and talking about them everywhere you go?

for all we know it can very well be literal mark in the spirit realm. We haven't travelled there so we can't say for sure!

LOL. Sure, you go with that then. Just do whatever you can to deny that it can be symbolic.

I noticed this:

You don't have time to read Gods Word that Iposted to give you the evidence you asked for, but you certainly have enough time to write these lengthy answers. Interesting?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I did not have time at that time because I had other things to do. Why do I have to explain everything to you? I have gone above and beyond trying to explain what I believe to you and this is the response I get? I am very close to being done with you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You love to strain at gnats don't you?

You come across as someone who isn't very careful about what you say and do. You seem to just rush through your posts without thinking.

So you believe in that "last minute" before He lands on earth rapture.

It teaches in passages like 1 Thess 4:14-5:11, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Thess 2:1-12 that we will be gathered to Him just before He takes vengeance on all of His enemies. We don't believe "He lands on earth" right after that. That is what post-trib Premils believe. We believe the judgment occurs right after that.

So for all you can be absolutely sure of, I could be far more right and you far more wrong in understanding when and where Scripture uses symbols?

I feel absolutely sure that I am far more right than you when it comes to the things we discuss on this forum.

I believe the bible is the key to knowing when something symbolic is said.

So do I.

and I also believe the bible defines the symbols for us.

Not always. Take the beast and false prophet and the harlot Babylon, for example. It gives some description of those entities it still doesn't tell us exactly what they are.

God knows how corrupted even the most sincere believer can be so He leaves nothing to chance concerning His Word.

If that is the case then why does the book of Revelation contain so much symbolism? Why isn't it just all written in a literal, straightforward way?

YOu and WPM have now on record here have declared that Peter, Paul and John were all misled in writing some of Sacred Scripture.

That is a blatant lie. What is wrong with you? Do you not have a conscience? Do you think lying is okay? In no way, shape or form have either of us "declared that Peter, Paul and John were all misled in writing some of Sacred Scripture". Stop your lies!

And in case you have forgotten already or are too embarrassed about it, let me remind you:

1. You both agree Satan is decapitated, impotent, bound and abyssed. Peter an Paul wrote the exact opposite.

No, we do not believe that. Why are you so ignorant? What is your excuse? Have you never seen our explanations for our understanding of Satan's binding? It has nothing to do with him being "decapitated" and "impotent". Instead, it has to do with him being prevented from stopping the gospel from shining light on what was previously almost a completely spiritually dark world. We see his binding as him being restrained, not completely incapacitated. We see passages like the following as being related to his binding:

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Acts 26:17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

2. You believe John was wrong when he said the mark of the beast is the mark of a man singular!

Another lie from you. I believe YOU are wrong by interpreting it to be talking about the beast as a man. Have you forgotten already that it says the beast existed even before John wrote the book of Revelation?

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

If the beast is a man then he is at least around 2,000 years old by now.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well god is exact and doesn't keep score like in horseshoes where close enough counts. Because you both declare your "reinterpretation" of the words of the Bible are based on spiritual discernment- they should match or one or both of you have gotten some bad discernement.

Do you think you don't need any help from the Holy Spirit to understand scripture? Especially the things beyond the basics? If not, then you are fooling yourself.

Well I gave you many Scriptures and you just said you had no time for the Scriptures I post- so you are lying hwith thatfalse claim.

I didn't have time at that time. I don't lie like you do. You lie about what I believe constantly. I pointed out multiple lies of yours in the previous post.

But here:

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

Hope that is not too many verses so you don't have time to read them.

There is no need for these types of comments. Maybe you have nothing else to do in your life, but I have other things to do sometimes, so that's why I said I didn't have time. I had other things to do. But, maybe you never have anything else to do except this.

You need to show why God would ins[pire teh marriage first when the events of Jesus return are inspired later.

What are you talking about? Where are you getting that the marriage already occurred there? It doesn't say that. It says the bride has made herself ready at that point. So, that's talking about the bride being ready for the marriage/wedding, not that the wedding has already occurred. It doesn't occur until after what is described in Revelation 19:11-21 happens first.

but then again you think John was wrong when he said the mark was the number of a man when in your opinion it is supposed to be mankind.

You really show your ignorance here when you act as if the word can only refer to a man. You are being lazy here. There are plenty of Greek Bible resources out there that you can use to help you understand the meaning of the words that our English Bibles were translated from. Use them.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Wrong. you are failing in basic grammar. "pas", "pantos" and the other derivatives of the english word "all" in greek have three meanings

!. each and every single thing mentioned
2. everyone of a specific category.
3. every sort of person.

Context determines which is used. And given that Jesus returns to a specific geographic point on earth (the region of Petra) to battle the antichrist and his armies, we know it does not mean every single individual.

It can mean 2 or three for in the armies that the antichrist marshalled from the world would have those listed in Rev 19:17-19, either is corrrect.

but as the antichrist did not gather every single human being to fight against Jesus in the battle of the great day of God

Revelation 16:12-14
King James Version

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.


the normal common ususal understanding of people is that kings gather their armies, not every single citizen including babies and infants. God may have wished to keep the truth from unbelieving Israel as Jesus said in Matt. 13 but not from people who seek to serve Him.

It's hilarious how you think you proved something here when you proved absolutely nothing except that you are unable to discern what is figurative and what is literal. Armageddon is not any more a literal, physical place on earth than mystery Babylon or Magog in Revelation 20:8. It's funny that you take that literally but don't take "all people" literally. You clearly struggle to properly differentiate between symbolic and literal text.