The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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WPM

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It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with, and widely promoted, it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). They took up the baton were Cerinthus and Marcion left off. Not surprisingly, these two unorthodox writers were condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

It is a sad indictment on Premillennialism that the genesis of the doctrine within Christendom can only be found in the ancient writings of these gross heretics.

What set these 4 men apart from the orthodox Chiliasts was obviously not their opinion of the idea of a future millennial earth, no, it was their elevation of the nation Israel in a future millennium, their two-peoples-of-God-theory (including a clear discontinuity between Israel and the Church), their advocacy for the renewal of all the old covenant feasts and festivals, a return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) and their support for the restarting of the old covenant priesthood on a future millennial earth.

While these are beliefs that are widely held within Premillennialist circles today, they were unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premillennialism.

Notably: none of the ancient Chiliasts supported the idea of Israel rising again to a place of racial superiority in a future millennial kingdom. They all looked upon the Church as fulfilment of true Israel today. They rejected any idea of God blessing any aspect of the redundant Jewish ceremonial arrangement. They strongly opposed any validity for, or efficacy in, any coexisting dual covenant theory.

They resisted any advancement of the fanciful idea of any type of reintroduction of the old abolished covenant system, including the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the performing of multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man for a thousand years in the future. Such a thought was anathema to them. For the 1st 240 years after the cross there was no classic Dispensational or “Historic” Premil beliefs in the early Church. The new earth they envisioned was more akin to the Amil new earth - it was perfect and pristine. It was sin-free, sinners-free, Satan-free, corruption-free and death- free.

The early orthodox heretical apostates found the natural carnal sensual expectations of the Jewish millennial teaching attractive to their thinking. Prior to Cerinthus, and after him, up until Victorinus in 270 AD, there are no orthodox Christian writings advocating the continuation of earthly carnal pleasures (including excessive feasting, continued marriage, ongoing sexual passion and procreation) and materialistic prosperity after the resurrection. This thinking was thought to belong to the Gnostic camp. As Premillennialist Chris Gousmett even conceded: “This emphasis on material and fleshly delights was seen to be typical of ‘Jewish’ understandings of the prophetic promises, and thus a close connection between Gnosticism and Judaism was postulated” (Shall the Body Strive and not be Crowned? Unitary and Instrumentalist Anthropological Models as keys to Interpreting the Structure of Patristic Eschatology).

Finally, none the early orthodox Chiliasts expected a future binding/unbinding of Satan or the uprising of Gog and Magog to surround Christ and the saints 1,000 years after the second coming. They all seem to have believed that Satan was taken out of the game on the actual day of Christ’s appearing.
 
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Randy Kluth

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It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD).

That is flat out stupid! You might as well condemn Christianity because the JWs and Mormons are Christians. Premill began with the Apostle John, whose Revelation taught it. And those who followed John in Asia Minor and elsewhere likewise were Premill. The fact a couple of heretics held to the same view the others did has absolutely zero bearing on the matter. Guilt by association--that's your object, and it is illegitimate and slanderous because it suggests that Premills both then and now shared the heretical views of these heretics. And yet, they didn't. Shame on you! You're absolutely fixated on your Amill WPM!
 

Truth7t7

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That is flat out stupid! You might as well condemn Christianity because the JWs and Mormons are Christians. Premill began with the Apostle John, whose Revelation taught it. And those who followed John in Asia Minor and elsewhere likewise were Premill. The fact a couple of heretics held to the same view the others did has absolutely zero bearing on the matter. Guilt by association--that's your object, and it is illegitimate and slanderous because it suggests that Premills both then and now shared the heretical views of these heretics. And yet, they didn't. Shame on you! You're absolutely fixated on your Amill WPM!
Pre-Millennialism is found no place in scripture as you claim, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Good God this guy is on a witch hunt.

He will not discuss words of scripture. And then he will tell everyone that when we do not believe as he does we are attacking him.

I think it is time to put this to rest. When he wants to discuss the word. Instead of attacking people he disagrees with. Someone let me know
 
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Truth7t7

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Good God this guy is on a witch hunt.

He will not discuss words of scripture. And then he will tell everyone that when we do not believe as he does we are attacking him.

I think it is time to put this to rest. When he wants to discuss the word. Instead of attacking people he disagrees with. Someone let me know
You have been clearly answered and shown pre-millennialism is the invention of men
 
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Enoch111

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It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics.
Before anyone takes this ludicrous and scurrilous accusation seriously, the proper meaning of Premillennialism should be understood by everyone. And that will prove that this comment is not only stupid but false.

Got Questions is a reliable source of information for answers to Bible questions. Here is what they say: "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth."

Crosswalk is another reliable source and here is what they say: Premillennialism teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent), will occur before the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem described in Revelation 20:1–7. This reign is known as the millennium.

We could access many more sources, but this should suffice. Now Paul Malcolmson claims that this is "heretical" and the only reason he makes this ludicrous claim if because he and other Amillennialists refuse to take Revelation 20 in its plain literal sense. But to slander Christians who take the Bible in its plain literal sense and call them "heretics" is totally unacceptable. And to make a false accusation such as this "The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics" is extremely insulting.

So why does this person who labels himself a "Christian" engage in falsely attacking other Christians? Because he does not have anything of substance. It is all bluster.

Now is it true that the Second Coming of Christ is BEFORE the establishment of the Millennium? Absolutely. Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential (as is most of Revelation). So what do we see?

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:11,14,15)

REVELATION 20:4 THE MILLENNIUM
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now can any say that this is not a Revelation from God, and that it is exactly what will happen in the future? And does that not mean that it is the Amillennialists who are the heretics trying to pervert the plain meaning of Scripture?
 

WPM

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That is flat out stupid! You might as well condemn Christianity because the JWs and Mormons are Christians. Premill began with the Apostle John, whose Revelation taught it. And those who followed John in Asia Minor and elsewhere likewise were Premill. The fact a couple of heretics held to the same view the others did has absolutely zero bearing on the matter. Guilt by association--that's your object, and it is illegitimate and slanderous because it suggests that Premills both then and now shared the heretical views of these heretics. And yet, they didn't. Shame on you! You're absolutely fixated on your Amill WPM!

Scripture forbids Premil. The early fathers knew nothing of what we have today with modern Premil, until hundreds of years after the cross. This is all strong and compelling evidence why it should be rejected. It is an extra-biblical theory.
 

WPM

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Before anyone takes this ludicrous and scurrilous accusation seriously, the proper meaning of Premillennialism should be understood by everyone. And that will prove that this comment is not only stupid but false.

Got Questions is a reliable source of information for answers to Bible questions. Here is what they say: "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth."

Crosswalk is another reliable source and here is what they say: Premillennialism teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent), will occur before the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem described in Revelation 20:1–7. This reign is known as the millennium.

We could access many more sources, but this should suffice. Now Paul Malcolmson claims that this is "heretical" and the only reason he makes this ludicrous claim if because he and other Amillennialists refuse to take Revelation 20 in its plain literal sense. But to slander Christians who take the Bible in its plain literal sense and call them "heretics" is totally unacceptable. And to make a false accusation such as this "The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics" is extremely insulting.

So why does this person who labels himself a "Christian" engage in falsely attacking other Christians? Because he does not have anything of substance. It is all bluster.

Now is it true that the Second Coming of Christ is BEFORE the establishment of the Millennium? Absolutely. Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential (as is most of Revelation). So what do we see?

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:11,14,15)

REVELATION 20:4 THE MILLENNIUM
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now can any say that this is not a Revelation from God, and that it is exactly what will happen in the future? And does that not mean that it is the Amillennialists who are the heretics trying to pervert the plain meaning of Scripture?

So, you have now reduced Premil down to a one tenet doctrine. That is so convenient. This of course is ludicrous. Check any Premil posts here, any Premil website or any Premil writing and you will see the litany of errors they attach to the age to come. These were foreign to both the early Chiliast and the early Amils They were totally alien to the NT writers.

While ancient Chiliasm and modern-day Premillennialism share the expectation of a future thousand years on this earth after the second coming, there are some key elements that set ancient Chiliasm apart from typical Premillennialism.

The three major differences that I see are (1) their view of the intermediate state, (2) their vision of the nature and quality of the millennial earth and how that will look like after the appearing of Christ, and, also, (3) their view of the position of natural Israel and the old covenant arrangement on a future millennial earth.

No one could argue that these are insignificant issues or irrelevant to the overall discussion. They are right at the core of the debate of how the age to come will look like.

Popular Premillennialism today has largely settled at its structure, format and tenets. But early Chiliasm, where it claims its roots, was a completely different animal to modern Premil. It was very unlike what we have today. Its views were all over the place and quite unorthodox, ambiguous, perplexing and contradictory at times.

While many Reformed Historic Premillennialists shy away from the old covenant extremes that many other Historic Premillennialists espouse, including the elevation of national Israel, and restarting of the abolished Jewish ceremonial system, most accept that sin, sinners, mortality, decay, death, marriage and procreation, war and terror, and eventually Satan and his minions, all enter the age to come. This was not held by the early Chiliasts.
 
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WPM

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You are either willfully blind or willfully ignorant and this comment proves it.

Your Premil bias is obviously coloring your thinking. You advocate a zero corroborative theory. Your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20 enjoys no biblical support elsewhere. Where, outside of the highly symbolic setting of Revelation 20, did the Old Testament prophets, Jesus or the New Testament writers mention this supposed literal thousand years period? Nowhere!
 

Davy

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It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with, and widely promoted, it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). They took up the baton were Cerinthus and Marcion left off. Not surprisingly, these two unorthodox writers were condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

It is a sad indictment on Premillennialism that the genesis of the doctrine within Christendom can only be found in the ancient writings of these gross heretics.

What set these 4 men apart from the orthodox Chiliasts was obviously not their opinion of the idea of a future millennial earth, no, it was their elevation of the nation Israel in a future millennium, their two-peoples-of-God-theory (including a clear discontinuity between Israel and the Church), their advocacy for the renewal of all the old covenant feasts and festivals, a return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) and their support for the restarting of the old covenant priesthood on a future millennial earth.

While these are beliefs that are widely held within Premillennialist circles today, they were unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premillennialism.

Notably: none of the ancient Chiliasts supported the idea of Israel rising again to a place of racial superiority in a future millennial kingdom. They all looked upon the Church as fulfilment of true Israel today. They rejected any idea of God blessing any aspect of the redundant Jewish ceremonial arrangement. They strongly opposed any validity for, or efficacy in, any coexisting dual covenant theory.

They resisted any advancement of the fanciful idea of any type of reintroduction of the old abolished covenant system, including the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the performing of multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man for a thousand years in the future. Such a thought was anathema to them. For the 1st 240 years after the cross there was no classic Dispensational or “Historic” Premil beliefs in the early Church. The new earth they envisioned was more akin to the Amil new earth - it was perfect and pristine. It was sin-free, sinners-free, Satan-free, corruption-free and death- free.

The early orthodox heretical apostates found the natural carnal sensual expectations of the Jewish millennial teaching attractive to their thinking. Prior to Cerinthus, and after him up until Victorinus in 270 AD, there are no orthodox Christian writings advocating the continuation of earthly carnal pleasures (including excessive gluttony and continued marriage, ongoing sexual passion and procreation) and materialistic prosperity after the resurrection. This thinking was thought to belong to the Gnostic camp. As Premillennialist Chris Gousmett even conceded: “This emphasis on material and fleshly delights was seen to be typical of ‘Jewish’ understandings of the prophetic promises, and thus a close connection between Gnosticism and Judaism was postulated” (Shall the Body Strive and not be Crowned? Unitary and Instrumentalist Anthropological Models as keys to Interpreting the Structure of Patristic Eschatology).

Neither the heretical Premillennialists or the early orthodox Chiliasts expected a future binding/unbinding of Satan or the uprising of Gog and Magog to surround Christ and the saints 1,000 years after the second coming. They all seem to have believed that Satan was taken out of the game on the actual day of Christ’s appearing.

You've got your history wrong. The 1st century Church fathers were ALL... Pre-millennialists.

Man's theory of Amillennialism didn't begin until the 2nd century, which was the same time when the pagan Gnostics mixed their philosophy from Plato in with a portion of Christian doctrine while scrapping the most important Christian doctrine of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for the remission of sins.

It is those doctrines of men called Dispensationalism and a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory by 1830's British preacher John Nelson Darby that you are ACTUALLY talking about. Not all that believe Pre-mill are on Darby's theories. Otherwise, how could the 1st century Church fathers believed in a pre-millennial coming by Jesus Christ?

BRETHREN:
Beware of folks who hide here that are actually pushing man's theory of Amillennialism, which is NOT WRITTEN in God's Word. Much of The Bible has to be omitted in order to believe that false theory from men.
 
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WPM

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Before anyone takes this ludicrous and scurrilous accusation seriously, the proper meaning of Premillennialism should be understood by everyone. And that will prove that this comment is not only stupid but false.

Got Questions is a reliable source of information for answers to Bible questions. Here is what they say: "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth."

Crosswalk is another reliable source and here is what they say: Premillennialism teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent), will occur before the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem described in Revelation 20:1–7. This reign is known as the millennium.

We could access many more sources, but this should suffice. Now Paul Malcolmson claims that this is "heretical" and the only reason he makes this ludicrous claim if because he and other Amillennialists refuse to take Revelation 20 in its plain literal sense. But to slander Christians who take the Bible in its plain literal sense and call them "heretics" is totally unacceptable. And to make a false accusation such as this "The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics" is extremely insulting.

So why does this person who labels himself a "Christian" engage in falsely attacking other Christians? Because he does not have anything of substance. It is all bluster.

Now is it true that the Second Coming of Christ is BEFORE the establishment of the Millennium? Absolutely. Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential (as is most of Revelation). So what do we see?

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:11,14,15)

REVELATION 20:4 THE MILLENNIUM
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now can any say that this is not a Revelation from God, and that it is exactly what will happen in the future? And does that not mean that it is the Amillennialists who are the heretics trying to pervert the plain meaning of Scripture?
You've got your history wrong. The 1st century Church fathers were ALL... Pre-millennialists.

Man's theory of Amillennialism didn't begin until the 2nd century, which was the same time when the pagan Gnostics mixed their philosophy from Plato in with a portion of Christian doctrine while scrapping the most important Christian doctrine of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection for the remission of sins.

It is those doctrines of men called Dispensationalism and a Pre-tribulational Rapture theory by 1830's British preacher John Nelson Darby that you are ACTUALLY talking about. Not all that believe Pre-mill are on Darby's theories. Otherwise, how could the 1st century Church fathers believed in a pre-millennial coming by Jesus Christ?

BRETHREN:
Beware of folks who hide here that are actually pushing man's theory of Amillennialism, which is NOT WRITTEN in God's Word. Much of The Bible has to be omitted in order to believe that false theory from men.

Your teachers have taught you wrong. This is theological rantings. Where is you evidence? You have stated this, yet failed to provide one bit of evidence to support this.
  1. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
  2. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
  3. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
  4. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
  5. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
  6. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
  7. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
  8. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
  9. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
  10. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
  11. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
  12. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
  13. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
  14. Please quote any ECF in the first 210 years after the cross that taught that Jesus would be reigning over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne?
 
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WPM

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That is flat out stupid! You might as well condemn Christianity because the JWs and Mormons are Christians. Premill began with the Apostle John, whose Revelation taught it. And those who followed John in Asia Minor and elsewhere likewise were Premill. The fact a couple of heretics held to the same view the others did has absolutely zero bearing on the matter. Guilt by association--that's your object, and it is illegitimate and slanderous because it suggests that Premills both then and now shared the heretical views of these heretics. And yet, they didn't. Shame on you! You're absolutely fixated on your Amill WPM!

But, please remember, the JWs and Mormons are Premils and Premil took off at the same time they arose.
 

Truth7t7

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Before anyone takes this ludicrous and scurrilous accusation seriously, the proper meaning of Premillennialism should be understood by everyone. And that will prove that this comment is not only stupid but false.

Got Questions is a reliable source of information for answers to Bible questions. Here is what they say: "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth."

Crosswalk is another reliable source and here is what they say: Premillennialism teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent), will occur before the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem described in Revelation 20:1–7. This reign is known as the millennium.

We could access many more sources, but this should suffice. Now Paul Malcolmson claims that this is "heretical" and the only reason he makes this ludicrous claim if because he and other Amillennialists refuse to take Revelation 20 in its plain literal sense. But to slander Christians who take the Bible in its plain literal sense and call them "heretics" is totally unacceptable. And to make a false accusation such as this "The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics" is extremely insulting.

So why does this person who labels himself a "Christian" engage in falsely attacking other Christians? Because he does not have anything of substance. It is all bluster.

Now is it true that the Second Coming of Christ is BEFORE the establishment of the Millennium? Absolutely. Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential (as is most of Revelation). So what do we see?

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:11,14,15)

REVELATION 20:4 THE MILLENNIUM
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now can any say that this is not a Revelation from God, and that it is exactly what will happen in the future? And does that not mean that it is the Amillennialists who are the heretics trying to pervert the plain meaning of Scripture?
There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Davy

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Truth7t7

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Before anyone takes this ludicrous and scurrilous accusation seriously, the proper meaning of Premillennialism should be understood by everyone. And that will prove that this comment is not only stupid but false.

Got Questions is a reliable source of information for answers to Bible questions. Here is what they say: "Premillennialism is the view that Christ’s second coming will occur prior to His millennial kingdom, and that the millennial kingdom is a literal 1000-year reign of Christ on earth."

Crosswalk is another reliable source and here is what they say: Premillennialism teaches that the second coming of Jesus Christ to the earth (known also as the second advent), will occur before the establishment of the thousand-year reign of Jesus Christ from Jerusalem described in Revelation 20:1–7. This reign is known as the millennium.

We could access many more sources, but this should suffice. Now Paul Malcolmson claims that this is "heretical" and the only reason he makes this ludicrous claim if because he and other Amillennialists refuse to take Revelation 20 in its plain literal sense. But to slander Christians who take the Bible in its plain literal sense and call them "heretics" is totally unacceptable. And to make a false accusation such as this "The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics" is extremely insulting.

So why does this person who labels himself a "Christian" engage in falsely attacking other Christians? Because he does not have anything of substance. It is all bluster.

Now is it true that the Second Coming of Christ is BEFORE the establishment of the Millennium? Absolutely. Revelation 19 and 20 are sequential (as is most of Revelation). So what do we see?

REVELATION 19: THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war... And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:11,14,15)

REVELATION 20:4 THE MILLENNIUM
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now can any say that this is not a Revelation from God, and that it is exactly what will happen in the future? And does that not mean that it is the Amillennialists who are the heretics trying to pervert the plain meaning of Scripture?
Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your teachers have taught you wrong. This is theological rantings. Where is you evidence? You have stated this, yet failed to provide one bit of evidence to support this.
  1. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described sin existing on a future millennial earth?
  2. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described corruption existing on a future millennial earth?
  3. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described the wicked existing on a future millennial earth?
  4. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described mortals existing on a future millennial earth?
  5. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described decay existing on a future millennial earth?
  6. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described the curse existing on a future millennial earth?
  7. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described Satan existing on a future earth?
  8. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium which involved the elevation of natural Israel above all other ethnic groups as Premil does?
  9. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving a renewal of the Jewish sacrifice system as Premil does?
  10. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that described an alleged future millennium involving carnal pleasure like procreating in the age to come as Premil does?
  11. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that advocated the binding of Satan for 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
  12. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that advocated the release of Satan 1,000 years+ after the second coming as Premil does?
  13. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that advocated the revival of Satanism 1,000 years+ after the second coming as the wicked in their billions overrun the Premil millennium as Premil does?
  14. Please quote any ECF in the first 150 years after the cross that taught that Jesus would be reigning over His enemies for 1,000 years upon David’s throne?

It is also my understanding the Premill was dominant early on in Church history, and that Amlll was "Johnny Come Lately." The allegorical system that took root in the Church, whether through Gnosticism, Judaism, or other, began to lead Christians into an allegorization of the Millennial Period. Failure to see the restoration of Israel led them to believe that Israel allegorized the Church, which is Replacement Theology. And it took hold for centuries, which is why I don't insult the Amill position--it is thoroughly entrenched in Christian history.

But to argue that Premill didn't provide detail on the Millennial Age is likely the product of having a lack of information on the subject. It is highly speculative.

And there is little need to sound off on Satan, sin, and evil in the Millennial Age when the biblical idea is Christ's Kingdom, and not the short rebellion that takes place at the end of this period. In my view, you're asking all the wrong questions. Why, for example, is there not a lot of material in the first 150 years of the Church debunking Premill? Why in the first 150 years don't we have a lot of Amill opposition to the idea of a literal Millennium?

Obviously, if the heretic Cerinthus painted a false view of the Millennium, then Christians wouldn't want any part of such false speculation. Cerinthus in his belief in a return of the Jewish legal system was apparently a legalist. But in his materialism he seems like a Hedonist, for whom the material world has less spiritual significance and can be indulged in freely in the Millennial period.
 
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Truth7t7

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My evidence is The Word of God as written, which early Church fathers, and many later ones confirmed about Jesus' coming to gather His Church happening PRIOR to His "thousand years" Millennial reign!

MILLENNIAL KINGDOM – EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (2)
No such thing as a Millennial Kingdom on this earth found in scripture, it's a fabricated fairy tale of man as post #14 & #16 above clearly shows
 
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Timtofly

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It may shock Premillennialists to know that the views they hold and promote today were sourced and spread in antiquity chiefly among heretics. When we look for the originators and formulators of modern-day Premillennialism we actually arrive at four shadowy early figures. The first two operated at the very infancy of early church history – Cerinthus of Asia Minor (50-100 AD) and Marcion of Sinope, Asia Minor (Born: 85 AD, Died: 160 AD). Both of these were viewed as arch-heretics and were strongly resisted by the early Church fathers for their corrupt perversion of Christianity. They invented a dual-covenant concept of two parallel yet coexisting peoples of God, under two different agreements, serving two different gods, with two different time-tables and two different ultimate outcomes. This was seasoned throughout with Gnostic elements.

The later advocates of ancient Premillennialism who ran with, and widely promoted, it were Porphyry [or Porphyrius] of Tyre (232- 305) and Apollinarius of Laodicea, Asia Minor (died 382). They took up the baton were Cerinthus and Marcion left off. Not surprisingly, these two unorthodox writers were condemned by the ancient orthodox fathers as heretics and blasphemers.

It is a sad indictment on Premillennialism that the genesis of the doctrine within Christendom can only be found in the ancient writings of these gross heretics.

What set these 4 men apart from the orthodox Chiliasts was obviously not their opinion of the idea of a future millennial earth, no, it was their elevation of the nation Israel in a future millennium, their two-peoples-of-God-theory (including a clear discontinuity between Israel and the Church), their advocacy for the renewal of all the old covenant feasts and festivals, a return of blood sin offerings in a future temple (whether real or memorial) and their support for the restarting of the old covenant priesthood on a future millennial earth.

While these are beliefs that are widely held within Premillennialist circles today, they were unknown to the early orthodox Church Chiliasts. Along with the reintroduction of all the bondage of corruption on a future earth (including sin, death and decay) and the rising up of Satan after 1000 to influence billions of millennial inhabitants against Christ and the glorified saints, this advocacy for the return of all the old covenant apparatus is probably the most unsavory aspect of modern Premillennialism.

Notably: none of the ancient Chiliasts supported the idea of Israel rising again to a place of racial superiority in a future millennial kingdom. They all looked upon the Church as fulfilment of true Israel today. They rejected any idea of God blessing any aspect of the redundant Jewish ceremonial arrangement. They strongly opposed any validity for, or efficacy in, any coexisting dual covenant theory.

They resisted any advancement of the fanciful idea of any type of reintroduction of the old abolished covenant system, including the rebuilding of the Jewish temple and the performing of multiple additional sin offerings to atone for the sins of man for a thousand years in the future. Such a thought was anathema to them. For the 1st 240 years after the cross there was no classic Dispensational or “Historic” Premil beliefs in the early Church. The new earth they envisioned was more akin to the Amil new earth - it was perfect and pristine. It was sin-free, sinners-free, Satan-free, corruption-free and death- free.

The early orthodox heretical apostates found the natural carnal sensual expectations of the Jewish millennial teaching attractive to their thinking. Prior to Cerinthus, and after him up until Victorinus in 270 AD, there are no orthodox Christian writings advocating the continuation of earthly carnal pleasures (including excessive gluttony and continued marriage, ongoing sexual passion and procreation) and materialistic prosperity after the resurrection. This thinking was thought to belong to the Gnostic camp. As Premillennialist Chris Gousmett even conceded: “This emphasis on material and fleshly delights was seen to be typical of ‘Jewish’ understandings of the prophetic promises, and thus a close connection between Gnosticism and Judaism was postulated” (Shall the Body Strive and not be Crowned? Unitary and Instrumentalist Anthropological Models as keys to Interpreting the Structure of Patristic Eschatology).

Neither the heretical Premillennialists or the early orthodox Chiliasts expected a future binding/unbinding of Satan or the uprising of Gog and Magog to surround Christ and the saints 1,000 years after the second coming. They all seem to have believed that Satan was taken out of the game on the actual day of Christ’s appearing.
I am glad you point out they were heretics because of other people's racism, and not the fact they saw the Second Coming happening prior to a Millennium set apart to God and Holy. Only racist would deny that Israel has a place near and dear to God's heart. I mean that is why Israel is chosen and not China, otherwise Jesus would have been Chinese.

This two people's of God nonsense is pointless. There are sons of God in the full image of God, but we don't say they are a different people group, except all those who claim they are angels. It is how much of the image of God are you? Is your current dead corruptible flesh an image showing that God/Jesus is of dead corruptible flesh? Paul pointed out in the first century it was the heart that was wicked and needed to change, the physical body came later.

So it is not about ethnicity, and that is just being racist when you claim two people groups.

It is how much of God's image do you actually reflect.

Since you neglected to post any of their actual writings and thoughts, this post is considered hearsay until a full disclosure is made. Scripture is very clear on pre-mill thoughts, so making false accusations without any direct quotes from these alleged God deniers, is avoiding the here and now.

Since you avoid the future, how can you afford to avoid the here and now?
 

WPM

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My evidence is The Word of God as written, which early Church fathers, and many later ones confirmed about Jesus' coming to gather His Church happening PRIOR to His "thousand years" Millennial reign!

MILLENNIAL KINGDOM – EARLY CHURCH FATHERS (2)

I don't waste my time with outside Premil links that are often as ignorant and prejudice on the subject as those challenging the thesis here. They simply repeat what they have been taught. Few take the time to research this in real depth.

You advocate a zero corroborative theory. Your mistaken opinion of Revelation 20 enjoys no biblical support elsewhere.
 
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